Making a Fair Game

fastone371 said:
I think the best way to find a fair game for both sides are people you played against in a tournament. Since you were not gambling at the time, just trying to win a match you have a pretty good idea of how you match up.
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Not always, I know of an individual that entered the U.S. Open in 1999 & proceeded to go 2 and out intentionally all the while playing it up to everyone he was dead $. Then this individual ventured into Q-Masters in the wee hours one night flashing cash and negotiated a healthy spot against a particular Filipino player with a contingent of backers who made him freeze up 5 dimes to get the spot he wanted which he did, he then proceeded to rob them of 20 dimes, adjusting the game twice along the way. Several days later he barked mercilessly at an well known American player at the Convention Center after this player finished his match. A game was negotiated & arranged to be played at a local individuals home who had a pristine GCIII, a friend of the well known American player & he proceeded to rob that player of 32 dimes adjusting 4 times. All in all he had a couple grand in expenses for his hotel, entry fee & food. Once expenses deducted he rolled out of town with 49 large. Just because someone plays a particular way in a tournament doesn't mean that's his speed. Names of victims and giant killer left out to protect those that were robbed & the robber.
 
In order for a match to be fair, and for it to actually be considered gambling, neither player should have an edge.

This means the match should be 50/50, a coin flip. This quite literally means that anyone who is willing to play in a fair match would also be ok with a coin flip deciding whether or not they win money or lose money.

Most people, understandably, would not be ok with true gambling, where they have just as much chance of losing their money as they do winning money.

It's not always people trying to get a lock. How many times have you heard someone say "If I play my game, I should win" when describing a match that they think is fair. This actually means it isn't fair. A truly fair match would be if you played your regular game, you would have a 50% chance of winning.

That's the main issue. People act in their self-interest by nature. They don't want to leave it up to pure chance whether or not they win. In their minds they are being completely reasonable, but in reality, they are asking for an unfair game.

The other issue is that it's impossible to know for sure how a certain spot in pool will translate in to the percentage chance of each player winning. There's no way to determine, with any certainty, which spot will give each player a perfect 50/50 chance.

In my experience, either people bark back and forth and don't play, or someone gets hustled into believing they are in a fair game when they aren't, or the better player gives in, out of necessity, and gives up too much of a spot.

That's how better players get better. They care about improving, and it's not all about the money, so they are willing to play tougher games. These tougher games raise their level of play and forces them to eventually get better.

The players that are the ones always asking for ridiculous spots never really improve, and their motivation is money, not pool.
 
mikeyfrost said:
A lot of time in the pool hall people have money in their pocket and want to put it in play. Now you are looking for action. Tailor your responses relative to your speed all the way from fish to champion to the simple question below.

How do you go about making a fair game?
First, I must have accurate knowledge as to my opponent's level of play.

 \What are the main considerations?
I must know as much about my opponent as I can learn, such as, his REAL win/loss record, his financial situation-stakehorse or bet his own money- if stakehorse more info on him as well.

Why is it so hard for people to make a game?
Because people don't like to lose their money to people who have more information than they do.


Does the guy with the gold make the rules? Most of the time, unless his opponent thinks he is a fish.

I generally have more money than game so to me that's a big consideration. Why make any kind of game with the guy you can win maybe 1 set from? Because that is all you want to lose?

What about getting staked? If a guy will bet more do you give a little more of a spot than you would if you were on your own dime? Since I am not a very good player, I often will take less of a spot from someone who bets their own money. I try not to play players who play worse than I do.

A lot of people say they do, but I think it's fundamentally impossible to treat someone else's money the way you would your own. It's a hypothetical theory that I don't believe can be proved,

The scenarios all vary but logically what are the steps needed to make a complete assessment and proposal to find that mythical "action."
I think you have the edge on most people attempting to make a game.
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Lots of good questions. Good luck with your quest, whatever it may be.

JoeyA
 
railbird99 said:
In order for a match to be fair, and for it to actually be considered gambling, neither player should have an edge.

This means the match should be 50/50, a coin flip. This quite literally means that anyone who is willing to play in a fair match would also be ok with a coin flip deciding whether or not they win money or lose money.

Most people, understandably, would not be ok with true gambling, where they have just as much chance of losing their money as they do winning money.

It's not always people trying to get a lock. How many times have you heard someone say "If I play my game, I should win" when describing a match that they think is fair. This actually means it isn't fair. A truly fair match would be if you played your regular game, you would have a 50% chance of winning.

That's the main issue. People act in their self-interest by nature. They don't want to leave it up to pure chance whether or not they win. In their minds they are being completely reasonable, but in reality, they are asking for an unfair game.

The other issue is that it's impossible to know for sure how a certain spot in pool will translate in to the percentage chance of each player winning. There's no way to determine, with any certainty, which spot will give each player a perfect 50/50 chance.

In my experience, either people bark back and forth and don't play, or someone gets hustled into believing they are in a fair game when they aren't, or the better player gives in, out of necessity, and gives up too much of a spot.

That's how better players get better. They care about improving, and it's not all about the money, so they are willing to play tougher games. These tougher games raise their level of play and forces them to eventually get better.

The players that are the ones always asking for ridiculous spots never really improve, and their motivation is money, not pool.
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That's on point beginning to end
 
All you have to do is set up a good format for adjusting. Suppose two players agree to play races to 10 at nine ball, and the (allegedly) weaker player starts with a game on the wire. After that, for every $1000 (or $10, or $100) a player is ahead overall, he has to give up a game on the wire. This assumes they will be playing for a while, and that both players abide by the agreement. The outcome is guaranteed to be a fair game within a few adjustments unless one of the players was really stealing at the start.
 
Which demands another query....

Is the goal of "Making a Fair Game", to insure that neither party is likely to lose any money if there is a wager involved?

JoeyA


Bob Jewett said:
All you have to do is set up a good format for adjusting. Suppose two players agree to play races to 10 at nine ball, and the (allegedly) weaker player starts with a game on the wire. After that, for every $1000 (or $10, or $100) a player is ahead overall, he has to give up a game on the wire. This assumes they will be playing for a while, and that both players abide by the agreement. The outcome is guaranteed to be a fair game within a few adjustments unless one of the players was really stealing at the start.
Click to expand...
 
JoeyA said:
Which demands another query....

Is the goal of "Making a Fair Game", to insure that neither party is likely to lose any money if there is a wager involved?

JoeyA
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No, I think it is to ensure that if one player raises his game up that day he will get rewarded. Unless, of course, the other player raises his game up even higher. The real point is to provide a good test for both players.
 
If so what is it really?

JoeyA said:
Which demands another query....

Is the goal of "Making a Fair Game", to insure that neither party is likely to lose any money if there is a wager involved?

JoeyA
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Exactly and that's something I don't understand. Is the time tested ability to slip up on some poor soul being threatened here? If so please stop it!....lol...just know how much you are willing to risk and when to call it quits and then you go find yourself an easier game to get even! Gambled money is leased money anyway!

What would pool be without the great unknowns?
 
Bob Jewett said:
No, I think it is to ensure that if one player raises his game up that day he will get rewarded. Unless, of course, the other player raises his game up even higher. The real point is to provide a good test for both players.
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That is the point Bob, that's exactly the point.If they play good, you should have to play better to win. If you play bad, they should have to play worse for you to win.

Money has no owners, only spenders ~Omar from The Wire
 
We have a Winner!

efirkey said:
Smart gamblers who like their money don't make fair games...
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We have a Winner!

efirkey,
Would you like to tell the audience today:

What exactly is it that has made you such an intuitive genius that you are?
 
336Robin said:
We have a Winner!

efirkey,
Would you like to tell the audience today:

What exactly is it that has made you such an intuitive genius that you are?
Click to expand...

Lot's of time in the pool hall has made me very wise to human nature...
 
efirkey said:
Smart gamblers who like their money don't make fair games...
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Well then I guess every gambling match has at least one person who is not smart and/or does not like their money.

(You can reduce this to just one person who is not smart if you are implying that all smart people like their money)
 
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Bob Jewett said:
No, I think it is to ensure that if one player raises his game up that day he will get rewarded. Unless, of course, the other player raises his game up even higher. The real point is to provide a good test for both players.
Click to expand...

The likely misinterpretation here is saying that means if Player A raises his/her game, and Player B doesn't, then Player A should have a 100% chance of winning.

In reality, a fair match means that if both players play their regular game, it should be 50/50, and if one player "raises their game" above regular, they get rewarded by having more than a 50% chance of winning. It does not mean it's anywhere close to 100%.
 
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