You do understand that your posts insinuate that my cues don't fit well, won't fit well long term, and that my customers are settling on low quality because I have to machine my joints sloppily to ensure they hold up? Because it sure seems that's what you're saying about not only me, but every other cue maker who utilizes wood threads. It's only fair that if you're going to post such blanket statements, that you at least identify yourself & the cues you build. I'm more a believer in tangible evidence to support claims, such as me saying that there are several hundreds of my Sugartree cues that contradict everything you said. See how I did that? I disagreed with you while supporting my position with actuality and identification. That gives credence to my opinion. Whether you agree with it or not, at least you know where & from whom it's coming, so you can judge it's value.
Shaft plug materials?
- Thread starter Kim Bye
- Start date
You do understand that your posts insinuate that my cues don't fit well, won't fit well long term, and that my customers are settling on low quality because I have to machine my joints sloppily to ensure they hold up? Because it sure seems that's what you're saying about not only me, but every other cue maker who utilizes wood threads. It's only fair that if you're going to post such blanket statements, that you at least identify yourself & the cues you build. I'm more a believer in tangible evidence to support claims, such as me saying that there are several hundreds of my Sugartree cues that contradict everything you said. See how I did that? I disagreed with you while supporting my position with actuality and identification. That gives credence to my opinion. Whether you agree with it or not, at least you know where & from whom it's coming, so you can judge it's value.
I guess that the 10 plus year old cue I built and gave to dad, and still has a tight fit on the shaft isn't ideal.....ok. I seal the threads in the shafts of my cues to minimize moisture affects but even the older cues I built that I didnt seal the threads on, still have a good fit. We all do what works for us as builders, wood threads have "worked" for many many years and I dont see that changing anytime soon.
Please don't put words in my mouth, I never said anything disparaging about yours or anyone else's cues. If you took my comments personally and add meaning to them this is not my fault. I only stated fact, and the fact remains that wood moves with climate change and changes in size, the steel pin doesn't, besides insignificant amounts during temp change. Making it impossible to maintain a tight fit between the two, therefore it would make sense to use a more stable type of material for the insert. Which was what the original poster was inquiring about. You can interpret that info however the feel and I apologize if it offends you. Instead of bashing me for stating my perspective, why don't you you state your case as to why using a wood as an insert material is superior or advantages to using a synthetic material? To me this would prove more useful the trying to make it personal.
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Bingo....yes it's all in the initial fit and this ^^^.
I have never had a problem with humidity changing the threads and fit and I ship world wide. A lot of my cues go to a climate with a higher humidity than I keep my shop at but I don't believe the difference to be significant enough to matter.
Have never once had any complaint or sent a cue back for stripped or too tight of a fit and it's all done in maple threads.
It's obviously a matter of opinion but personally, no, I don't believe changing an insert in the shaft has that significant of a difference in the hit or feel of the end result.
Now, if your talking about brass inserts and SS joints and the way it is fitted.....maybe.
But I'm talking straight into a wooden shaft, flat faced joint.
Someone who knows something ^^^^^^^^!
Experiment with a live cutting set up and you will change you mind about some of this.
IMO...............
IMO...You are correct with this thinking. But again, there are ways around it if you know how and the amount of movement involved will be insignificant to the matter at hand.
Thread abuse is the number 1 problem, as I see it, in attaching and detaching the shaft to the butt. This can also be magnified by the way the threads were originally machined it the shaft. Poor threading ideas can create more thread abuse than the wood used itself.
IMO..........
I do use live threading and have gone to great extents to achieve a good fit between shaft and pin. I have experimented with sealing the threads as well. What I am talking about is the difference between a few thou. If you only have 0.001" or .002" clearance between the minor of the pin and bore in the insert it doesn't take much movement to create a interference fit, I am talking specifically about the flat rooted 3/8" pins. So I am not sure what others are using as a proper fit or tolerance.
I still have yet hear a reason why wood threads are advantageous?
Less parts, less glue, no glue line, looks better, less work and cheaper. :grin:
Drop some Nelsonite down there. It should not swell up after that.
It'll stink though. :grin-square:
PS
Inserts also have a chance to make funny sounds later . I've seen a lot of them make funny sound.
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That is fair, wont argue with that..but if you are repairing a shaft is it still the best choice?
I've gone with synthetics or woods.
With radial, I go with wood .
Can't live thread radial and I hate tapping hard synthetics/phenolics.
Just a data point. I play with a very-well-known-cuemaker custom. It has two shafts. This cue is either in my basement, traveling under 20 minutes in the car, or at a pool establishment .... mostly in the basement. One shaft is very difficult to screw on in the summer when the humidity is higher, in the winter it fits very well. The other shaft fits nicely in the summer, and is a very loose fit in the winter. As a result I play with the summer-shaft in the summer and the winter-shaft in the winter :thumbup:
I live in the middle of the Canadian prairies. It is quite dry in the winter and can get moderately humid in the summer although not like the Gulf States or Toronto etc.
Dave
You're mistaking my candor for aggression. I took it only as personal as you meant it, which was very broad and not directed specifically at me. I am not offended. What I'm doing is making an attempt to establish your legitimacy. Since I do not know your name, have no idea what cues you build, how much weight should I give your words? Obviously you wouldn't say them if you didn't want to be taken seriously, yet you aren't serious enough about it to identify yourself.
Your credentials carry as much weight as your words, maybe more. That's my point. You are taking a stand against a method cue makers have utilized for decades with high success. Not only do you disagree with it, but you make disqualifying statements that seem to be purposed to discrediting it as a viable method. And you do so anonymously. Pardon me if I question how much you actually know about the subject, when I don't even know your name.
This is touching on something not yet mentioned, which is material compatibility. The phenolic gets drilled with the same bit, threaded with the same tap, yet doesn't seem to fit as smoothly as wood done exactly the same way. Reason being? Compatibility. In order to not "snag" the pin, phenolic must be overworked so the hole is larger or threads wallowed out more than what is required with wood. Joey mentioned bocote as a plug, and it's genius because bocote is naturally very oily, very stable, and very durable. Anybody who uses a variety of pin materials can attest to the way each material has a different fit, even though dimensionally they're all exactly the same. No different with insert materials.
I fail to see how my credentials have any bearing on this particular discussion. The main points of my argument are that wood moves..much more than metal when it come to humidity. Therefore it is pretty hard to have a consistent fit between two mating parts if one is changing size with the seasons. How does credentials weigh into that? Now Dave said that he can stabilize the wood so it minimizes movement, Does this completely stop any change in size? I don't know? The fact is no one will share the true variables. I gave specific sizes and tolerances. I can not comment on anyone else's methods because I don't know what they are so you can't say I am discrediting them. Dave K lives in the same climate I do, I am in the neighboring province, he has given example of the exact scenario I was talking about. I also believe Dave if I am not mistaken is a Machinist. I am going to go out on a limb and say we both have an understand of tolerances and fits.(Does the fact that I am a Machinist as well as a Cuemaker add more credibility to the facts?)
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Thats interesting. What about olive wood?
I have only used taps and they don`t make s clean threads as live tooling does, but my limited experience is that shafts with plastic/phenolic inserts, has been tighter than wood joints.
The superglue trick sounds cool. I`ll try that once I get my Weiss.
If your worried about the difference between an absolute "snug" fit and a .001 being too large on the minor diameter of a flat bottom threaded big pin you're worrying entirely too much about absolutely nothing.
IMO.....your two parts being screwed together will mate and snug down much better with a "slightly" loose interference fit on the pin than one that is hard to screw together.
Advantageous reason #1...... bore hole, cut threads, done!!!!
Advantageous reason #2...... if properly done and properly taken care of they will last not my lifetime but the lifetime of the 18 yr old pool player that just purchased his first and last quality cue.
Two of the most advantageous reasons I can think of.