Shaft plug materials?

DaveK said:
Just a data point. I play with a very-well-known-cuemaker custom. It has two shafts. This cue is either in my basement, traveling under 20 minutes in the car, or at a pool establishment .... mostly in the basement. One shaft is very difficult to screw on in the summer when the humidity is higher, in the winter it fits very well. The other shaft fits nicely in the summer, and is a very loose fit in the winter. As a result I play with the summer-shaft in the summer and the winter-shaft in the winter :thumbup:

I live in the middle of the Canadian prairies. It is quite dry in the winter and can get moderately humid in the summer although not like the Gulf States or Toronto etc.

Dave
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Get a cuemidor! :)
 
Just repaired a shaft that was 3/8-10 and threaded into the wood.

A thread had chipped off and was pushed further down the hole and when the butt was screwed on it split the shaft on 2 sides.

I was able to fill the hole with thin epoxy and then screw in a pin by hand. The epoxy then gushed out through the cracks.

I cleaned it all up with alcohol and then clamped it over night.

I polished it up and it came out nice....


Just one more reason why tapping directly into wood with out a hard insert is a bad idea and just does not show good cue building technique.

Kim
 
Just repaired a shaft that was 3/8-10 and threaded into the wood.

A thread had chipped off and was pushed further down the hole and when the butt was screwed on it split the shaft on 2 sides.

I was able to fill the hole with thin epoxy and then screw in a pin by hand. The epoxy then gushed out through the cracks.

I cleaned it all up with alcohol and then clamped it over night.

I polished it up and it came out nice....


Just one more reason why tapping directly into wood with out a hard insert is a bad idea and just does not show good cue building technique.

Kim
Click to expand...
How BIG of a chip would that have been to plug up the tap relief area at the bottom ?
Cool story by the owner, I AIN'T BUYING it .
If tapping directly to wood is a bad idea and not good cue building, that radial tap should be tossed .
Very few use inserts for radial screws .

How long has SW been around ? If they used inserts, I don't think they'd be as famous.

Go the extra mile . Live threading creates better threads . Live boring, even better .
1/4 end mill down to minor size . Replace end mill with thread mill with 1/4 cutter .
Pull in .032-.035 depending on your big screw and minor.
Engage.
Clean threads.
 
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Canadian cue said:
Does the fact that I am a Machinist as well as a Cuemaker add more credibility to the facts?
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Not to me it doesn't. Being an established cue maker with real experience in the craft, with cues to reference, and not being afraid of identifying yourself, would do the trick. Then I know I'm speaking with another cue maker instead of wasting time on some hack pretender. And we're not discussing facts. We're discussing opinions. Nobody questions or doubts that wood CAN move with climatic change. Everybody knows that, and it's not the statements I take issue with. I took issue with you stating that wood threads aren't an ideal joint, not as good as synthetics, and nobody could expect them to hold a long term fit. I have been clear about that, yet you divert the conversation to debating whether wood moves or not, which was never in question. I asked you to identify yourself so that I could effectively consider the source. You decline. Nothing else to talk about. I will share nothing with you, nor engage in your conversational re-directions so long as you continue to remain anonymous.

Quite simply, I'm not here to bash on you or ridicule your opinions. The topic is worthy of discussion, so long as it's had between folks who have actual experience. I'm not interested in the opinion of somebody I do not even know has ever made a cue. I do not feel that is a lot to ask.
 
whammo57 said:
Just repaired a shaft that was 3/8-10 and threaded into the wood.

A thread had chipped off and was pushed further down the hole and when the butt was screwed on it split the shaft on 2 sides.

I was able to fill the hole with thin epoxy and then screw in a pin by hand. The epoxy then gushed out through the cracks.

I cleaned it all up with alcohol and then clamped it over night.

I polished it up and it came out nice....


Just one more reason why tapping directly into wood with out a hard insert is a bad idea and just does not show good cue building technique.

Kim
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Did you actually witness this happen or are we relying on a pool players account of the crime?
Did the shaft have a collar?
Not saying it couldn't have happened this way ....BUT....I'm having a really hard time believing a little chunk of wood thread had broke off in a threaded shaft bore and someone didn't realize that there was something "that obstructive" in the way and continued to tighten the shaft down until it split?

Better case scenario.....the cue gets abused in some fashion and in the coarse of this recklessness an absurd amount of pressure gets applied to the joint area and it splits. When this split happens a chunk of thread breaks off and gets lodged inside the bore when the shaft get screwed on again.
When the shaft comes to the repair guy no story of abuse is ever mentioned because pool players would never abuse their equipment.
The repair guy looks down in the bore finds a little chunk of broken thread and soundly proclaims here's your problem....them stupid guys that cut threads directly into wood just don't know what the heck their doing.
You're a superstar for pointing out the cause and effect and instead of plugging the shaft like it should have been repaired because that little chunk of wood had "split the shaft on 2 sides" you instead administer a repair that will work for now but I can't honestly believe you think it will have any lasting effect.
 
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Kim Bye said:
Thats interesting. What about olive wood?
I have only used taps and they don`t make s clean threads as live tooling does, but my limited experience is that shafts with plastic/phenolic inserts, has been tighter than wood joints.
The superglue trick sounds cool. I`ll try that once I get my Weiss.
Click to expand...

Olive is an outstanding choice. Strong, self lubricating, and glues well. The problem people have with tapping wood is that either their hole is too small, their tap is trash, or they don't have a clue how to do the job. There's zero problem or difficulty drilling & tapping a hole. I have done it on every cue I have made over the last decade. I have my tricks & techniques, but essentially all I do is drill a hole & tap it. The devil is is the details, as they say. A quality tap that's sharp, in a properly sized hole, will CUT threads in wood every bit as sharp & clean as live tooling. You must know how to do the job, and must have proper tooling. A cheap and/or dull tap, improperly sized hole, and/or bad technique will TEAR threads. It's really that simple.

Live tooling is never a bad thing. It cuts clean threads regardless of hole size, so it really does limit the things that can go wrong. However, it creates new ways for things to go wrong, such as absent minded miscalculations or the extra turn of a hand wheel. When designing my joint, I began with a drill bit. I measured the diameter of the bit, then made pins to fit the hole. I later contracted the pins out to be made for me, but still to my specs & design. The drill, tap, pin, and sanding arbors are all made specifically for one another. That gives me repeatable consistency that's unattainable any other way short of CNC. Every cue I make is centered around that joint. It has proven to be extremely accurate & repeatable, long lasting, convenient, and dependable. I make a shaft today for a cue I made 5 years ago, and it's a dead nuts fit. If a cue gets a broken or bent joint pin, I can replace with zero worry that it will still fit the shafts perfectly. There's no matching anything up, no worry of misfitting, nothing. It's all uniform, cue after cue, year after year, and always will be.

That said, I do live tool ferrules, ferrule tenons, and butt sleeve tenons. I don't tap my joint threads because I have to. I do it because it's the better way FOR ME to do it. Again, tapping wood threads is a viable method. But as with any method, you have to do it correctly.
 
qbilder said:
Olive is an outstanding choice. Strong, self lubricating, and glues well. The problem people have with tapping wood is that either their hole is too small, their tap is trash, or they don't have a clue how to do the job. There's zero problem or difficulty drilling & tapping a hole. I have done it on every cue I have made over the last decade. I have my tricks & techniques, but essentially all I do is drill a hole & tap it. The devil is is the details, as they say. A quality tap that's sharp, in a properly sized hole, will CUT threads in wood every bit as sharp & clean as live tooling. You must know how to do the job, and must have proper tooling. A cheap and/or dull tap, improperly sized hole, and/or bad technique will TEAR threads. It's really that simple.

Live tooling is never a bad thing. It cuts clean threads regardless of hole size, so it really does limit the things that can go wrong. However, it creates new ways for things to go wrong, such as absent minded miscalculations or the extra turn of a hand wheel. When designing my joint, I began with a drill bit. I measured the diameter of the bit, then made pins to fit the hole. I later contracted the pins out to be made for me, but still to my specs & design. The drill, tap, pin, and sanding arbors are all made specifically for one another. That gives me repeatable consistency that's unattainable any other way short of CNC. Every cue I make is centered around that joint. It has proven to be extremely accurate & repeatable, long lasting, convenient, and dependable. I make a shaft today for a cue I made 5 years ago, and it's a dead nuts fit. If a cue gets a broken or bent joint pin, I can replace with zero worry that it will still fit the shafts perfectly. There's no matching anything up, no worry of misfitting, nothing. It's all uniform, cue after cue, year after year, and always will be.

That said, I do live tool ferrules, ferrule tenons, and butt sleeve tenons. I don't tap my joint threads because I have to. I do it because it's the better way FOR ME to do it. Again, tapping wood threads is a viable method. But as with any method, you have to do it correctly.
Click to expand...

Tried...tested...and perfected thru actual physical and mental involvement.
What a concept.
 
qbilder said:
Olive is an outstanding choice. Strong, self lubricating, and glues well. The problem people have with tapping wood is that either their hole is too small, their tap is trash, or they don't have a clue how to do the job. There's zero problem or difficulty drilling & tapping a hole. I have done it on every cue I have made over the last decade. I have my tricks & techniques, but essentially all I do is drill a hole & tap it. The devil is is the details, as they say. A quality tap that's sharp, in a properly sized hole, will CUT threads in wood every bit as sharp & clean as live tooling. You must know how to do the job, and must have proper tooling. A cheap and/or dull tap, improperly sized hole, and/or bad technique will TEAR threads. It's really that simple.

Live tooling is never a bad thing. It cuts clean threads regardless of hole size, so it really does limit the things that can go wrong. However, it creates new ways for things to go wrong, such as absent minded miscalculations or the extra turn of a hand wheel. When designing my joint, I began with a drill bit. I measured the diameter of the bit, then made pins to fit the hole. I later contracted the pins out to be made for me, but still to my specs & design. The drill, tap, pin, and sanding arbors are all made specifically for one another. That gives me repeatable consistency that's unattainable any other way short of CNC. Every cue I make is centered around that joint. It has proven to be extremely accurate & repeatable, long lasting, convenient, and dependable. I make a shaft today for a cue I made 5 years ago, and it's a dead nuts fit. If a cue gets a broken or bent joint pin, I can replace with zero worry that it will still fit the shafts perfectly. There's no matching anything up, no worry of misfitting, nothing. It's all uniform, cue after cue, year after year, and always will be.

That said, I do live tool ferrules, ferrule tenons, and butt sleeve tenons. I don't tap my joint threads because I have to. I do it because it's the better way FOR ME to do it. Again, tapping wood threads is a viable method. But as with any method, you have to do it correctly.
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I do it because I HAVE TO. I can't have it any other way .
So many odd sizes , so I have to live thread .
I like a .675" joint tenon size . There is no tap for the joint collar for that size .
I wouldn't want to use a die anyway.
If I make a tenon at the bottom of an exotic wood handle I could only get at 13" max, I thread it . I like to "double sleeve ) that bottom 1", so that tenon will be less than .750".
Tried using a die on pplheart? It ain't pretty.
But, if you only have a Taig lathe, you can't live thread so many odd threads.
Attached pic is two test pieces I have when I was testing a new cutter .
Now, the minor and thread depth I have dialed in are really almost the same no matter what size .
Just snug enough and have good axial force.
 
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BarenbruggeCues said:
Tried...tested...and perfected thru actual physical and mental involvement.
What a concept.
Click to expand...

I remember a time when guys had to learn by trial/error/failure/experimentation/loss/determination, and didn't dismiss a process as wrong simply because it didn't work for them. And when you finally get it right, you have it forever. Just because you can't do it, can't figure it out, aren't willing to learn proper technique, doesn't mean it's a bogus method.
 
JoeyInCali said:
I do it because I HAVE TO. I can't have it any other way .
So many odd sizes , so I have to live thread .
I like a .675" joint tenon size . There is no tap for the joint collar for that size .
I wouldn't want to use a die anyway.
If I make a tenon at the bottom of an exotic wood handle I could only get at 13" max, I thread it . I like to "double sleeve ) that bottom 1", so that tenon will be less than .750".
Tried using a die on pplheart? It ain't pretty.
But, if you only have a Taig lathe, you can't live thread so many odd threads.
Click to expand...

You can't use a die on wood. Doesn't work. Wood requires support, which is why internal threads can be cut with a tap, but if you try cutting external with a die, you're removing the support.

Why haven't you streamlined your threads to have one thread for everything. I used to do 10tpi on everything from ferrule to sleeve tenon. Regardless of size, it was 10tpi. Now I have a variation of threads, but for the most part I do not thread many parts. Never needed to.
 
qbilder said:
You can't use a die on wood. Doesn't work. Wood requires support, which is why internal threads can be cut with a tap, but if you try cutting external with a die, you're removing the support.

Why haven't you streamlined your threads to have one thread for everything. I used to do 10tpi on everything from ferrule to sleeve tenon. Regardless of size, it was 10tpi. Now I have a variation of threads, but for the most part I do not thread many parts. Never needed to.
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I have . Except for the pin.
 
qbilder said:
I remember a time when guys had to learn by trial/error/failure/experimentation/loss/determination, and didn't dismiss a process as wrong simply because it didn't work for them. And when you finally get it right, you have it forever. Just because you can't do it, can't figure it out, aren't willing to learn proper technique, doesn't mean it's a bogus method.
Click to expand...

I want to learn to thread wood using this very very very old method :

http://www.woodspriteturnings.com/s...=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=3&Itemid=11

I tried to make thread chasers, and had some minor success, but nothing like what is shown. Lovely work in the link ... although not likely suitable for cuemaking.

Dave
 
DaveK said:
I want to learn to thread wood using this very very very old method :

http://www.woodspriteturnings.com/s...=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=3&Itemid=11

I tried to make thread chasers, and had some minor success, but nothing like what is shown. Lovely work in the link ... although not likely suitable for cuemaking.

Dave
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Oh yeah, thread chasing. Very difficult skill to acquire, from what I have been told. I haven't tried it myself, but remember knowing a wood turner in Alaska who was able to do it. I used to cut birch trees & burls for him in exchange for bowls & stuff. I recall him telling me how much time it took to learn thread chasing, though I never tried it for myself.
 
JoeyInCali said:
I do it because I HAVE TO. I can't have it any other way .
So many odd sizes , so I have to live thread .
I like a .675" joint tenon size . There is no tap for the joint collar for that size .
I wouldn't want to use a die anyway.
If I make a tenon at the bottom of an exotic wood handle I could only get at 13" max, I thread it . I like to "double sleeve ) that bottom 1", so that tenon will be less than .750".
Tried using a die on pplheart? It ain't pretty.
But, if you only have a Taig lathe, you can't live thread so many odd threads.
Attached pic is two test pieces I have when I was testing a new cutter .
Now, the minor and thread depth I have dialed in are really almost the same no matter what size .
Just snug enough and have good axial force.
Click to expand...

What's a good price point for a jig that allows for 10-20 tpi live tooling on a taig based lathe? I've been trying to develope a jig for a while to solve this problem. I have a couple of designs I've been trying to work with. Right now I'm leaning towards a design that'll only work in a large bore chuck. But there is a viable solution for for a small bore too. But also there's an option, albeit it's pricier, to mount directly onto the lathe bed. I just don't know how in demand this would be, so I don't know what route to take.
 
Having dialed in the logan I just aquired, Im going to make some of the parts I use, like pins. Right now I dont have any problems with fit, but can I tweak it more, yup. Im working on a holder to let me start live tooling soon. Now forget, for a minute, what tapping method or thread cutting method is used, if your equipment is not dialed in and you have to much run out, your fit and tolerances will suffer.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
What's a good price point for a jig that allows for 10-20 tpi live tooling on a taig based lathe? I've been trying to develope a jig for a while to solve this problem. I have a couple of designs I've been trying to work with. Right now I'm leaning towards a design that'll only work in a large bore chuck. But there is a viable solution for for a small bore too. But also there's an option, albeit it's pricier, to mount directly onto the lathe bed. I just don't know how in demand this would be, so I don't know what route to take.
Click to expand...

I really don't know if they even exist.
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
What's a good price point for a jig that allows for 10-20 tpi live tooling on a taig based lathe? I've been trying to develope a jig for a while to solve this problem. I have a couple of designs I've been trying to work with. Right now I'm leaning towards a design that'll only work in a large bore chuck. But there is a viable solution for for a small bore too. But also there's an option, albeit it's pricier, to mount directly onto the lathe bed. I just don't know how in demand this would be, so I don't know what route to take.
Click to expand...

Not sure there are any commercial retrofits. There are certainly many people who have solved the same problem as the Taig is popular with model engineering hobbyists. A quick google of "
taig lathe screw cutting" returned some interesting designs ... these are near the top of page 1 :

http://www.cartertools.com/brooketh.html
http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/leadscrew/leadscrew.html
http://modelengines.info/lathes/leadscrew.html

Note that the folks who built these are metalworkers and may have tooling / experience somewhat different than many cuemakers. Having said that I am a HUGE fan of having skills and equipment to make ones own tooling and jigs, it most certainly aids in overall creativity and problem solving.

Dave
 
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