Draw vs Follow Which is Harder to Execute

[skins]

I think the most difficult shot to master is the firm force follow shot... setup a straight in shot with the object ball at different distances from the cue ball. Stroke the cue with a firm stroke, pocket the ball and try to move the cue ball 6 inches forward, then a foot, then a foot and a half and so on with the same stroke.... very difficult to do but worthy of learning...

 

[Skippy27]

Personally I am better for accuracy following the ball than I am for drawing. This is very clear by doing straight on practice drills where I can often follow the OB into the corner pocket 19 out of 20 times, but have a hard time drawing the ball back on a straight line and even a harder time drawing it back to the opposite corner.

Typically if I draw I end up hitting the ball to the left and have right spin on the cue ball. Video and the Q+ app shows that I am certainly moving the butt end of the stick.

When I have to pick between the 2 to try and get shape I will use follow even if the shot it leaves is slightly harder than the draw or if it requires me to take it to the head rail and come down the table more.

 

[alstl]

Am I the only one that finds heavy follow to affect my shots sigfinifcantly more than heavy draw?

I was researching how to improve my follow shot accuracy and found many articles saying to convert to follow instead fo usiing draw, so I'm like, what?

And when I say "heavy" I mean forcing the CB to travel 2 ft or more after impact. And when I say, "affect my shots" i mean causing me to miss potting the object ball as opposed to mild follow or draw.

How far are the balls apart and how close to the rail is the cue ball?

 

[asbani]

Four words,

The one you play less is harder !

Alright that wasn't four words but you know what I mean , its simply because you played more draws + stops with low spin on cueball that you find it easier as oppose to applying top spin, thats the thing. naturally once you learn stop shot, then draw shot, you will use them more often because theyre fun, then they became easy for you, because you actually literally shot more shots in this form.

Now if you also watch the pro's or even any good players around, they often apply outside english to ease the shot for them when cutting a ball, for example, if they cut the ball slightly to the right (And I don't mean severe cut, its just normal cut) they apply left spin (Outside english) they think it makes the shot easier, but the truth of the matter is, the same concept, they use this more often which made them memorize and have a feel of the shot, as oppose to applying inside english, they think its more difficult when its just that they arent used to it because they haven't shoot so many shots applying Inside English while cutting a ball.

Anyway you can ask Pat Flemming about this, he will also tell you, and some of his friends will tell you, that in the 80s he himself was making an experiment, where he started to use Inside English more often so see why it is difficult, and after few months using ONLY (And i mean literally) Inside English, he then had the feel of it and felt that they are as easy, and then when asked to apply outside english (Which most players think it helps making balls) he started missing shots and the outside english felt harder. So Pat Flemming if he cuts ball to the right, he apply right english, and if he cut ball to the left he apply left english during the experiment.

Anyway to sum it up, It's not that one is harder, its just the one that you play more will feel more easier, so yea shoot more balls with top spin and you will see it's as easy.

But a tip from me would be, don't over-go on the TOP edge of cueball when applying follow, try to go above center, then use either one tip above center, or half tip, you don't need to go to the far up edge of cueball to make force follow, this will also ease the aiming.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Am I the only one that finds heavy follow to affect my shots sigfinifcantly more than heavy draw?

I was researching how to improve my follow shot accuracy and found many articles saying to convert to follow instead fo usiing draw, so I'm like, what?

And when I say "heavy" I mean forcing the CB to travel 2 ft or more after impact. And when I say, "affect my shots" i mean causing me to miss potting the object ball as opposed to mild follow or draw.

Here's a test shot:

Put the object ball even with the side pockets about 6 inches from a side. Starting from ball in hand in the kitchen, follow a table and a half to leave the cue ball on the head rail. Then draw the cue ball a table and a half to leave the cue ball on the foot rail. Report which you found harder.

A lot depends on the cue ball for this shot. One pool hall I play at has tiny little cue balls the size of grapes (more or less). They are easy to draw but I don't like following them.

 

[Donny Lutz]

draw vs. follow

Am I the only one that finds heavy follow to affect my shots sigfinifcantly more than heavy draw?

I was researching how to improve my follow shot accuracy and found many articles saying to convert to follow instead fo usiing draw, so I'm like, what?

And when I say "heavy" I mean forcing the CB to travel 2 ft or more after impact. And when I say, "affect my shots" i mean causing me to miss potting the object ball as opposed to mild follow or draw.

Since I began teaching many years ago, I've seen people who struggled with draw and others who struggled with follow.

It was primarily because they didn't understand how natural roll and vertical spin (not to mention side spin) actually work. Learning this by trial and error, which can be a very slow process. When I teach, one of the first things is why and how the cue ball does different things when struck in different ways by the tip of a cue, and how it strikes an object ball. One of the reasons I teach this first is to avoid the "setback" when people go from learning to pocket object balls to controlling the cue ball.

And very importantly, I teach that such things as follow, force follow and draw are best learned in increments, as are most other techniques.

 

[Koop]

I find that I will miss more often with force follow but can control the cueball better. With draw I am more accurate but sometimes lose the cueball.

This friggin game...no right answers...ever! :frown:

 

[bdorman]

Here's a test shot:

Put the object ball even with the side pockets about 6 inches from a side. Starting from ball in hand in the kitchen, follow a table and a half to leave the cue ball on the head rail. Then draw the cue ball a table and a half to leave the cue ball on the foot rail. Report which you found harder.

A lot depends on the cue ball for this shot. One pool hall I play at has tiny little cue balls the size of grapes (more or less). They are easy to draw but I don't like following them.

I'm trying to visualize this drill...but I'm a little confused. I understand the "follow 1-1/2 table lengths to leave the CB at the head rail". It's the draw version that seems odd: don't I want to start/finish the draw version from/to the same place? Or, am I starting the draw version at the foot-string (therefore ending at the foot-rail)?

Although I suspect I'd achieve better position with follow, I usually use draw on this shot to avoid scratching in the corner pocket.

I'll give it a try.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I'm trying to visualize this drill...but I'm a little confused. I understand the "follow 1-1/2 table lengths to leave the CB at the head rail". It's the draw version that seems odd: don't I want to start/finish the draw version from/to the same place? Or, am I starting the draw version at the foot-string (therefore ending at the foot-rail)?

Although I suspect I'd achieve better position with follow, I usually use draw on this shot to avoid scratching in the corner pocket.

I'll give it a try.

For the second part, with the cue ball in the kitchen, you want to draw the cue ball off the object ball (which is between the side pockets) a table and half, the same distance that you followed the ball for the follow shot. For the draw shot that will leave the cue ball at the far end of the table from the kitchen. That is the foot of the table. Here's a diagram:

 

[Bambu]

There are many reasons as to why, but some players have developed more natural draw strokes. So for some, draw control is easier. By the book though, follow is more natural....and therefore typically easier.

 

[bdorman]

For the second part, with the cue ball in the kitchen, you want to draw the cue ball off the object ball (which is between the side pockets) a table and half, the same distance that you followed the ball for the follow shot. For the draw shot that will leave the cue ball at the far end of the table from the kitchen. That is the foot of the table. Here's a diagram:

View attachment 379436

Got it, thanks! (I thought we were pocketing the OB in the side pocket)

Follow....all day long...

 

[dr_dave]

Am I the only one that finds heavy follow to affect my shots sigfinifcantly more than heavy draw?

I was researching how to improve my follow shot accuracy and found many articles saying to convert to follow instead fo usiing draw, so I'm like, what?

And when I say "heavy" I mean forcing the CB to travel 2 ft or more after impact. And when I say, "affect my shots" i mean causing me to miss potting the object ball as opposed to mild follow or draw.

As others have pointed out, follow shots should be easier to control and result in better accuracy "by the book." For more information, see:

follow shot accuracy

The ease of control comes from the fact that CB travel distance is much easier to predict with a follow shot as compared to a draw shot. With a draw shot, the exact tip position, cue speed, and cloth conditions all have a bigger effect on the outcome of the shot.

People who have trouble with follow shot accuracy, usually have a problem with any or all of the following factors:
- vision center not properly aligned.
- dropping (and maybe chicken-winging) the elbow during the stroke into the ball.
- not aligning the tip carefully on the vertical centerline of the CB.

The links offer resources to help with each of the issues.

Good luck.

 

[Poolmanis]

Speed control is easier with follow, I think.
Pocketing ball is easier with draw if you don't need power draw. I believe it's easier for perception to see exact position of cue tip with draw shot.
So planting bridge hand is harder with follow, imo. Also ball curve is less critical with more center ball hit.

I had long term slump with firm follow shot. Finally I overcame that by using lower hit to cue ball and using more acceleration on stroke. I think problems with follow comes from hitting too high with power.

 

[Poolmanis]

As others have pointed out, follow shots should be easier to control and result in better accuracy "by the book." For more information, see:

follow shot accuracy

The ease of control comes from the fact that CB travel distance is much easier to predict with a follow shot as compared to a draw shot. With a draw shot, the exact tip position, cue speed, and cloth conditions all have a bigger effect on the outcome of the shot.

People who have trouble with follow shot accuracy, usually have a problem with any or all of the following factors:
- vision center not properly aligned.
- dropping (and maybe chicken-winging) the elbow during the stroke into the ball.
- not aligning the tip carefully on the vertical centerline of the CB.

The links offer resources to help with each of the issues.

Good luck.

Dr. Dave posted same time as me and I agree a lot for this post.

 

[CT06010]

I think follow is always easier. The hardest shot for me is a LOOOONG draw shot ( POWER DRAW). I have a lil practice schedule before i start playing matches. One of them is a LOOOONG draw shot. Ill shoot them 20-25 times and will be lucky to make 15 of them. I always throw the object to the right or left just a lil bit. Its def my STROKE but mentally i dont have the confidence in those shots yet as well.

 

[wwjdwithca]

Follow

:thumbup:

Speed control is easier with follow, I think.
Pocketing ball is easier with draw if you don't need power draw. I believe it's easier for perception to see exact position of cue tip with draw shot.
So planting bridge hand is harder with follow, imo. Also ball curve is less critical with more center ball hit.

I had long term slump with firm follow shot. Finally I overcame that by using lower hit to cue ball and using more acceleration on stroke. I think problems with follow comes from hitting too high with power.

There's been a lot of great input, but I think your right about hitting too high. Last night I was paying as close attention as I could and I noticed that I was really striking high, the harder I stroked it seemed the higher I aimed. That's what I do when I draw, I hit very low on hard draws, but this is good advice, thanks!

 

[SmoothStroke]

You must learn to climb the ladder with proper stroke delivery for ultimate control, pocketing the ball is the easy part, it's easy to miss when you know how.
Being capable to follow is one thing.
To pocket any ball, at any distance, follow any distance you want when called upon is another ball game. It takes work.

Smooth delivery and follow through, use the weight of the cue.
Lose the draw stroke and pounding the ball for now, work the ladder up.

Sincerely:SS

 

[wwjdwithca]

I Solved the Mystery!

So yesterday I figured out what the issue is. I gotta a lot of friendly input, so that was appreciated, it turns out that follow is more difficult, and really nobody pointed this out to me what I'm going to share.

I think everyone knows that when you draw the ball top spin is transferred to the object ball, and so it what happens when you hit heavy follow? Well, of course the object ball gets back spin. So when you strike heavy follow and make a cut shot the angle at which you cut will be lessened by the FACT that the object ball will skid some distance down the table before it starts tracking and rolling normally.

I finally noticed this yesterday when the object ball I struck (5 ball) displayed the "5" to me for several inches without spinning while it skidded down the table. So I was like, "Oh, yeah that makes sense" so I started to correct my angles and viola! The longer the shot, the more correction required.

Draw shots do not require this correction because the spin imparted does not make the object ball skid, rather track more accurately, like putting in golf.

I am a little flummoxed, quite frankly, that this was not pointed out to me by any one on this board.

 

[dr_dave]

So yesterday I figured out what the issue is. I gotta a lot of friendly input, so that was appreciated, it turns out that follow is more difficult, and really nobody pointed this out to me what I'm going to share.

I think everyone knows that when you draw the ball top spin is transferred to the object ball, and so it what happens when you hit heavy follow? Well, of course the object ball gets back spin. So when you strike heavy follow and make a cut shot the angle at which you cut will be lessened by the FACT that the object ball will skid some distance down the table before it starts tracking and rolling normally.

I finally noticed this yesterday when the object ball I struck (5 ball) displayed the "5" to me for several inches without spinning while it skidded down the table. So I was like, "Oh, yeah that makes sense" so I started to correct my angles and viola! The longer the shot, the more correction required.

Draw shots do not require this correction because the spin imparted does not make the object ball skid, rather track more accurately, like putting in golf.

I am a little flummoxed, quite frankly, that this was not pointed out to me by any one on this board.

Whether you impart top or bottom spin to the OB should not affect the direction the OB heads (in any meaningful or significant way).

Did anyone mention CB hop that comes with firm follow shots? If the CB hits the OB while airborne (which is likely with a firm follow shot), the OB will be overcut slightly. For more info, see:

follow shot ball hop
jump shot overcut effect

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[BmoreMoney]

Mark Wilson, in his book Play Great Pool, describes 'pro-level follow'. The objective is to hit high on the CB without scratching.

Use of drills with marking the spot where the cue tip contacts the CB will probably show either you are hitting much lower than you thought, or your contact point is inconsistant, or both.

You don't have to hit a million balls, a couple of thousand drill reps will get you started, even a couple of hundred might show improvement; but shooting only two or three practice shots is meaningless and unhelpful..

Chalk up for those off center hits, I've seen too many, even pros, fail to chalk up then miscue .

As for follow vs draw, you need both tools in order to play well, but follow position may come up more often and be a simpler method of moving the CB, especially at shorter distances. Making the CB to travel down the shot line of the next shot is good technique (as compared to having the CB moving across that shot line, which leaves less margin for error.

For a great bit of clear, concise training on this and other fundamentals, and at next to no cost, look up Tor Lowry's instructional vids.

While I definitely agree obviously you will need to be proficient in both follow and draw I have always considered a player either " a follow player " or a " draw player ". I think what determines the style is prob a matter of preference AND what they feel they are more consistent with in regards to pocketing the shot as well as shape.

I myself am a draw player and often I play shape on a shot which some may not consider " the right way " just so I will be able to pocket the shot and get shape using some type of draw. Its just a matter of preference for me and is what works for me. Don't get me wrong, I dont set up for draw every shot and I will use follow whenever I feel it is appropriate.