Standard rules of 9 ball 50 years ago?

bdorman said:
I've asked the same question (does anyone have written rules for two-foul pushout?) and received the same answers you have: lots of opinions about which is better; five-word "push out after any shot" answers; blah, blah. But no refences to written rules.

I guess back then no one wrote down rules. Must have been before the invention of written language.

The two-foul push out game will be lost forever after its current adherents die because no one will know the standard rules of the game. It's like wishing I had asked great-grandma more about the family history before she died. Once she was gone, it's lost forever.

I wish someone would write them down.
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There were different ways to play. Some played "Two foul by the same player" others played "Any two" the way I liked to play by the way. In the south they often played "Honest attempt". If you didn't hit the ball they would make you shoot again but there was no BIH.

Then some places in the south they seemed to make the rules up as they went along especially if you were winning. Many black rooms had rules you never saw anywhere else. Same with 8 ball.

When you ran around in those days you just played by what ever rules they played by, you never argued. I often won even when they were making up rules trying to cheat me.
 
Here is the One Pocket rules for the 1962 Jansco pool tourny.
 

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I will only add to what has been said here. There were two ways we played 9-Ball in the 60's, 70's and into the 80's, depending on whatever the house rules were. The first was "try to hit the ball" where you had to make an honest effort to hit the ball. If you failed to hit it your opponent could make you shoot again. There was no BIH even if you missed the object ball five times. You just had to keep shooting at it. Now you could hit the ball and play a safe if you had no pocket.

The second and most popular way of playing among real pool players was "push out" where you could roll out on any shot if you were hooked or just didn't like the shot. Your opponent could then chose to shoot or pass the shot back to you. If you shot and fouled/scratched your opponent would get BIH behind the line. If your opponent took the shot and scratched you would get BIH behind the line or if he fouled you would now have the choice to shoot or pass it back to him, just as if he was on one foul now. I rarely saw the game played where it was one foul push out, where you could get BIH after the non pusher fouled.

In both variations of the game all balls spotted, and if the lowest numbered ball was behind the line it spotted up first. After a foul/scratch in "push out" 9-Ball and balls were spotted the incoming player could make his opponent shoot again if he didn't like the shot. There were no more push outs at this point and the player had to make his best effort to hit the ball, otherwise he might keep shooting until he did.

Good Bank Pool players would often push out for a bank shot and guys who could cut the balls thin would push out for a very thin cut shot. We would push out to our strengths and to our opponents weaknesses.

There was quite a bit more strategy and shot making in this version of 9-Ball and it made for a very interesting and difficult game. The best player had a definite advantage and that's why the good players preferred this game.

I remember when Richie Florence adopted Texas Express rules for his Caesars Tahoe tournament in 1982 and I was the TD. I fought him on this rule change as I felt that it cheapened the game. He told me it was to speed up play for television and it turned out he was right about that. RIP Richie, sorry I ragged on you so hard. :o
 
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railbird99 said:
followed by....



and..



So the rules existed to speed up tournament play, yet they also make games drag on and boring to watch? Just a little bit of a contradiction?



Yes most safeties are easy to create distance, but no they are not usually easy to hide the rock.

Creating distance and completely hiding the cue ball are two different things. If all you do is create distance, can't your opponent just create distance right back?

It may be "boring" to spectators but that says nothing about how easy or hard the game is, and in two foul it's boring to watch players push to create distance, which is much easier.



Literally all of that is your opinion with no factual basis. 2 foul can be even more of a chess game than 1 foul. In 2 foul you can strategically break out your balls with a push, where in 1 foul, you have to break it out with a legal shot.

Pushing is also a way of "ducking", except there's little risk, and no immediate reward.
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Yes, today, players think 'duck' before 'shoot. The 1 foul rules of today are quite different from the original 1 foul rules as I explained.
The problem in the 'old' days was, in tournment play, players would push/and play safe, push/and playsafe.
It took forever. When they gambled, they pushed/and shot. Thats why 1 foul was invented,
Pushout is a much more aggressive shooting game than 1 foul.
When 1 foul was born, players thought 'shoot' not 'duck'.
The games went quickly. Not till Mike Segal saw the strength in ducking did players
start to think duck/not shoot.
Now, with 1 foul rules, easier fast cloth, heavier balls, ld shafts, short races, and tighter and tighter pockets, players speeds are equalized to a great extent.
Makes it very hard to match up. I see more 'break-even matches than ever now.
I'm glad I didnt have to make my money now. I'd have to get a job!
Which is what more and more pros and hustlers are doing
Get a job and join a league: welcome to post Y2K pool!
Glad I got my $$$ already....but I will match-up and play some pushout......
 
Will you just admit 1 foul is better !?

Gunn_Slinger said:
Yes, today, players think 'duck' before 'shoot. The 1 foul rules of today are quite different from the original 1 foul rules as I explained.
The problem in the 'old' days was, in tournment play, players would push/and play safe, push/and playsafe.
It took forever. When they gambled, they pushed/and shot. Thats why 1 foul was invented,
Pushout is a much more aggressive shooting game than 1 foul.
When 1 foul was born, players thought 'shoot' not 'duck'.
The games went quickly. Not till Mike Segal saw the strength in ducking did players
start to think duck/not shoot.
Now, with 1 foul rules, easier fast cloth, heavier balls, ld shafts, short races, and tighter and tighter pockets, players speeds are equalized to a great extent.
Makes it very hard to match up. I see more 'break-even matches than ever now.
I'm glad I didnt have to make my money now. I'd have to get a job!
Which is what more and more pros and hustlers are doing
Get a job and join a league: welcome to post Y2K pool!
Glad I got my $$$ already....but I will match-up and play some pushout......
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I just realized one of the games I played on vacation in the St Louis area was Alabama.
Didn't know what it was called :)
 
I've discovered I also have a 1980 BCA rule book with the one foul ball in hand rules. It also has "optional" rules for push out.
 
I liked the roll out rule...but only two fouls by the same player....
...I refused to play any two fouls...why should a player make a foul and
put ME under the gun?
With two fouls by the same player, he could push to his favorite shot....
...then I could push to my favorite shot...now we're both on one foul...
...but the disadvantage was always on the player who made the first foul.

At first, I didn't like Texas Express.....
...but it brought a whole new skill set to the game...
...so by the mid 80s, I would play either way.

Here's a shot you would never have seen with the old roll-out rules.
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...=XSlhJic6mtHHcb9OGlwK2w&bvm=bv.90491159,d.aWw
Efren would have pushed with the old rules.
 
I, personally, can't watch "one foul," it's to predictable

Pushout said:
Dick, I agree except for Billy Incardona. He's stated several times that he prefers the TE rules over Push Out. If I remember right, I've banged heads with him over it more than once;)
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Yes, Billy doesn't like it because of the emphasis on banking. I believe one of his sessions with Doug Smith left a bad taste because of Doug's incredible banking ability.

He's more of a defensive banker, and a great one, however, the "two way shot" banks are an essential part of the game because of the creativity and skill necessary......it's very entertaining to see the two shot rules played by champion players. I, personally, can't watch "one foul," it's to predictable and encourages players to play safe rather than go for "break outs" and challenging shots. imo
 
I've played both, being more offensive minded a player I preferred push out, it has a bit more strategy. As a young man I watched players in my dads hall practice certain difficult groups of shots for hours mastering shots most would pass on so that in matches they could push to these shots hoping their opponent would give it back to them & they'd drill it & then get out. A bit more exciting than watching safety battles. You also had to have well developed shot making skills to play higher caliber players which made you a better player, there was no run 2 or 3 and duck, there was nowhere to hide. Lastly I think BIH behind the line is more appropriate. BIH anywhere makes it a little too easy.
 
BlueCollarBar said:
Everyone talks about all the rule changes in the game. I'm just curious as to what the generally accepted rules of 9 ball were 50 years ago. I can't seem to find them anywhere. Does anyone have a copy of any printed rules by chance?
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To the very best of my knowledge they were pretty much exactly as CJ always talks about ( the two foul rules ). I do remember as a kid in the very eary 90's when I had just started getting into pool and coming in the pool halls ALL of the old timers were CONSTANTLY *****ing about Texas Express. The old timers would always say stuff like " the 2 foul is at least 1000x's better than this new Texas Express BS !!!! " - " 2 foul is REAL POOL and this Texas Express is kiddy pool, Mickey mouse pool and on and on and on.

As I said I was very new to pool and pool halls too so I really didn't even know what " 2 foul was. I BARELY knew the rules of Texas Express but one thing I knew 100% for sure and no doubt about it was the old timers DESPISED IT LOL!!!
 
Colonel said:
I've played both, being more offensive minded a player I preferred push out, it has a bit more strategy. As a young man I watched players in my dads hall practice certain difficult groups of shots for hours mastering shots most would pass on so that in matches they could push to these shots hoping their opponent would give it back to them & they'd drill it & then get out. A bit more exciting than watching safety battles. You also had to have well developed shot making skills to play higher caliber players which made you a better player, there was no run 2 or 3 and duck, there was nowhere to hide. Lastly I think BIH behind the line is more appropriate. BIH anywhere makes it a little too easy.
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Yeah, I miss having to make a spot shot...even if the 9 was made on a
scratch, you still had to fire in a spot shot.

Something I don't miss....you could drive an object ball off the table and
it re-spotted....no foul. :angry: That was Neanderthal.

What I don't like about the new rules....jump cues...
 
8 ball rules per the 1958 BCA rule book:

Break determined by lagging or lot

If opening player makes one or more balls on the break he has choice of group

Striker is entitled to all balls pocketed unless he pockets opponents ball, then opponent is credited with that ball

Player may combination off opponent's ball

Player with the high number group must pocket the 15 ball in the left side pocket as he looks down the table from the head

Player with the low number group must pocket the 1 ball in the right side pocket as he looks down the table from the head

If the 1 and 15 balls are not pocketed in the proper pockets they are respotted until they are shot into the proper pockets

When shooting at the 8 ball for the win the 8 ball must be called

When shooting at the 8 ball for the win the 8 ball must be struck first

If the 8 ball is called on a rail-first bank and not struck it is a loss of game

8 ball in a pocket not designated is a loss

Scratching on the 8 ball when shooting for the win is loss of game

All scratches and fouls give ball in hand within the head string

When having ball in hand within the head string and all object balls are within the string, the ball nearest the string is spotted including the 8 ball

General rules of pocket billiards apply

That's about it. Apologies to the op for getting off topic, this happens a lot when push out versus one foul 9 ball is mentioned.
 
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