The most common flaw in pool fundamentals...

randyg said:
After teaching for 40 years I have a list (in order) of the most common flaws made by pool players. You hit one right on the head, a poor back stroke!
1. Tight grip
2. Poor backstroke
randyg
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The light grip thing has always been questionable for me. (and I realize the best in the world hold it lightly)
I find that if I start missing balls, all I have to do is tighten my grip on the cue and like magic, they start going into the pockets again.
Maybe the light grip causes the cue to waggle a little, I don't know.
But I know with a tight firm grip the shots play better and I see no loss of cue ball control, as far as any spin goes. (which I use in small doses).
It's a disciplinary thing and I have to be sure I don't get lazy and start holding it lightly again.
I learned this from Danny Jones, way back in 1953.
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SP99, thanks for returning I enjoy your writings. :thumbup:

The triceps pull the cue back and the lower bicep closes the arm to bring the cue forward.
When pulling the cue back you have to give the triceps an opportunity to relax at the end of the backswing. At that moment the lower bicep will begin to load up to close the arm bringing the cue forward.

It is a rhythm issue I deal with all the time. One thing that has helped me, while practicing is to say to myself, while doing my warm up strokes, is to just say From the QB I say "1", bringing the cue back I say "and" "2" "and" "3". The word "and" is used during bringing the cue back. Kinda like dancing.

This method for me works well. When I do it I can feel the triceps relax and then start to feel the lower bicep begin to load.

I had to come up with something, I hate rushing the backswing.

Thanks for the post.

John
 
It takes energy to redirect the cue from the back-stroke to the forward motion

GoldenFlash said:
The light grip thing has always been questionable for me. (and I realize the best in the world hold it lightly)
I find that if I start missing balls, all I have to do is tighten my grip on the cue and like magic, they start going into the pockets again.
Maybe the light grip causes the cue to waggle a little, I don't know.
But I know with a tight firm grip the shots play better and I see no loss of cue ball control, as far as any spin goes. (which I use in small doses).
It's a disciplinary thing and I have to be sure I don't get lazy and start holding it lightly again.
I learned this from Danny Jones, way back in 1953.
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Holding the cue lightly allows players to correct fundamental issues. It's best to hold the cue firmer in practice, and to also take less practice strokes. I prefer to just "waggle" the cue close to the ball which rehearses the moment of contact.

When players take long, loose, practice strokes it sets them up to rush the back-swing and not take a pause (the gathering of the shot).

It takes energy to redirect the cue from the back-stroke to the forward motion. This hinders the proper acceleration and also takes away from the touch you might have if the forward movement was more distinct.
 
CJ Wiley said:
Holding the cue lightly allows players to correct fundamental issues. It's best to hold the cue firmer in practice, and to also take less practice strokes. I prefer to just "waggle" the cue close to the ball which rehearses the moment of contact.
When players take long, loose, practice strokes it sets them up to rush the back-swing and not take a pause (the gathering of the shot).
It takes energy to redirect the cue from the back-stroke to the forward motion. This hinders the proper acceleration and also takes away from the touch you might have if the forward movement was more distinct.
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T.Y.
(Picture below of a happy TOI user who is wise enough to study the things he gets for free in this place from a top action player.)
Cartoon of man with lots of money.jpg
 
Straightpool_99 said:
Pretty common due to the way our hands are constructed. When you pull the cue all the way back on a long stroke, at the very end the wrist holding the cue wants to rotate outwards. The tighter your grip, the more pronounced it will be. If you are pulling your cue away from the body from the very start of the backswing, you have a serious problem IMHO, because it probably means you are doing some "funny stuff" with your elbow, that might lead to inconsistency. I am not a certified instructor. Just something I've noticed. Take with a lot of salt.
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I have a serious problem :( and its been frustrating me for the past 2 years trying to correct it, as it moves outside in a arc-like movement and then straight forward. I just never noticed it (and never had anyone teach me good fundamentals). and over the years my game overall has improved a lot and i can run some racks, with this bad crooked arm movement (my elbow is always moving, left , right and dropping). but it's a pain in the ass to remove that muscle memory after so many years. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to do so and thinking consciously about it, makes me play my D game.

any good idea's on how to remove muscle memory and install new? especially under pressure old habits surface very fast !
 
Very glad you're still with us!! I've been looking at my own stroke more often over the past several years. When I'm playing all the time I pause before pulling the trigger, ala Buddy Hall. I also try to pull the cue all the way back to the ferrule/tip. One more thing I learned long ago, try to watch the cue ball's progress after contact and not the object ball. I know that's not a stroke thing but it really does seem to help my position play.
Interesting thread!
 
For me I believe adding a pause along with a shorter stroke has helped with being more consistent. I also try to play with no or less side spin when I can. I basically only play on baby tables with big pockets. So when faced with a DIAMOND table, I see even better players struggle.
 
I think this has been covered already, Keith being at the center of having poor fundaments yet good shot making and follow through etc. A good example "also" of a quick back stroke with no pause is Mika, soft shot or hard shot it's pretty much the same.

Question though (just a question). Knowing what you know "with the exception of the OP" how many of your are working towards improving this and what are you doing? Are you specifically practicing this or just trying to wing it during play and try to remember?
 
i've been working on it for 2 years.

- i use alot of video camera material. i put the camera at the end rail, and i shoot straight shots into to camera like if i would do the lag. i also put the camera around 10inches behind my backhand straight in line of the shot to see what my wrist is doing.

- for the whole movement, i just shoot straight in line shots for hours and just focus on "feeling" the whole shot and trying to remember how it feels, so later i can feel if i'm in line or not. I'd love to do 2000-3000 straight in line shots, but don't got the energy at the moment due to ilness.

- at home i play alot one handed pool. rest the cue on the siderail and shoot long straight in shots. any sidemovement without bridgehand will make that cue move sideways so hard you can't ignore it. (now i'm pbb one of the best one handed players around) i really really love this exercise !

- on every shot i play, i always watch if i'm hitting center pockets and mainly if i'm puting unwanted side on the cb.

the bad news is, after 2 years, i'm still not playing every shot like i should and still not doing what i know i have to do to be shooting straight. when i'm focusing on other things (thight position, pushing balls into position, breaking clusters, cute girl walking by) i forget all the training and i usually have poor fundamentals and miss the pot.
 
SP_99,

What you say can be a problem but so can too slow & too long of a pause.

We all have internal clocks. Some rune fast & some run slow. The thing is to find what yours is & perform at it's tempo.

To make one try to fit a prescription is not the best thing to do. I've seen golfers ruin their natural ability by trying to improve by fixing what was not broken in the first place.

If one can perform a quick stroke on line & has control of the speed of their cue ball, then there is no need to slow them down. Their internal clock is probably one that runs fast.

To me it's more having a good tempo & tempo can be fast, slow, ir in between.

To be honest, my own is not consistent. I subconsciously modify mine depending on the shot at hand.

In golf, one has there full swing & then there is a swing for knock down & pinch shots, draws & fades, etc.

Pros can play all or most of thos shots while many amateurs only have just one swing.

Anyway, just some food for thought,

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
Solartje said:
excellent post... you just mentioned one of my biggest problems in my fundamentals. I always pull the cue backwards away from my body, and then deliver the cue straight , meaning i always hit the cb to the left (almost a half tip).
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Just a guess, but have someone check the angle of your forearm. When my grip naturally gravitated to a more firm connection when I started using TOI, my forearm somehow got angled in toward my body & I developed a small swoop.

It may actually have been a good thing as it led to me finding out some other things about my vision which then led to a bit of a different stance which all put together got rid of the small swoop more permanently than other fixes that did not last.

Best Of Luck & Shoot Well,
Rick
 
GoldenFlash said:
The light grip thing has always been questionable for me. (and I realize the best in the world hold it lightly)
I find that if I start missing balls, all I have to do is tighten my grip on the cue and like magic, they start going into the pockets again.
Maybe the light grip causes the cue to waggle a little, I don't know.
But I know with a tight firm grip the shots play better and I see no loss of cue ball control, as far as any spin goes. (which I use in small doses).
It's a disciplinary thing and I have to be sure I don't get lazy and start holding it lightly again.
I learned this from Danny Jones, way back in 1953.
View attachment 383647
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I concur.

What I have found is that a loose connection is more conducive to moving the cue ball but brings in a bit of less precision. While a more firm connection yields more precision with less conducive movement of the cue ball.

I'm certainly not saying that the ball can't be moved with a firm connection. It certainly can. My key word is 'conducive'. The ball just moves differently is the best way that I can explain it, sort of.

I guess one just has to 'feel' it for themselves.

Anyway, I agree about the firmness & more precise accuracy.

I think it should be mentioned here & in general that everyone does not have the same type of stroke, pendulum vs others.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick
 
Straightpool_99 said:
I'm not saying it isn't possible to play well this way, only that it's not generally advisable. If your stance and alignment is super solid and you can keep still you can stay online pretty well. But IMHO a quick backstroke will amplify any imperfections. I'm not familiar with Morro Paez, other than having watched a couple of Accu-Stats matches. You are right about his stroke as far as I can remember. In one of the matches he was constantly jumping up on his stroke and twisting his cue as well. I'm going by memory here so I might be wrong.. Edit: Having watched the video you provided confirms my impression....Somehow he managed to play well in spite of this. He must be a very talented individual.
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But I agree with you that a quick backstroke throws balance and timing off and creates a jerky stroke. Usually when I do it, it's a sign of nerves and tension.

Like the Scottish say about the golf swing "Ye don't hit it with yer backswing son!"
 
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Solartje said:
excellent post... you just mentioned one of my biggest problems in my fundamentals. I always pull the cue backwards away from my body, and then deliver the cue straight , meaning i always hit the cb to the left (almost a half tip).
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Hi Solly,

Are you saying that you actually strike the CB almost 1/2 tip off center?

You could test this by hitting up the center of the table and seeing if it spins left off the rail coming back.

It's hard to believe someone your standard is hitting the CB so far off center.

Note: If you align to center CB, bring back the cue off line, but come forward to center CB, then it's not going to change the direction of the CB significantly. I believe it to be a common myth, based on some testing I've done.

To the original poster...

I think the greatest problem with a rushed backswing is that it makes CB positioning more difficult.

I also believe that many utilize a slower backswing as an opportunity to make intuitive adjustments, primarily shifting of the bridge and swiping to correct poor initial aim.

Of course, a rushed backswing can also cause those with unsteady bridges to unintentionally move the bridge.

One drill I use to check initial alignment is short firm somewhat jerky punch shot with firm bridge, looking at CB only and making sure to hit CCB. A longer slower stroke creates opportunities for bridge movements and swiping on delivery.

Colin
 
One Pocket John said:
SP99, thanks for returning I enjoy your writings. :thumbup:

The triceps pull the cue back and the lower bicep closes the arm to bring the cue forward.
When pulling the cue back you have to give the triceps an opportunity to relax at the end of the backswing. At that moment the lower bicep will begin to load up to close the arm bringing the cue forward.

It is a rhythm issue I deal with all the time. One thing that has helped me, while practicing is to say to myself, while doing my warm up strokes, is to just say From the QB I say "1", bringing the cue back I say "and" "2" "and" "3". The word "and" is used during bringing the cue back. Kinda like dancing.

This method for me works well. When I do it I can feel the triceps relax and then start to feel the lower bicep begin to load.

I had to come up with something, I hate rushing the backswing.

Thanks for the post.

John
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Hi John,

Good post. I like the dancing analogy.

That 'AND' word can be key. It's the up beat in music that represents a 1/2 beat. It's the change in direction of the foot from up to down. One can count only the down beats 1 2 3 4 or one can count the down beat & the up beats 1 & 2 & 3 & 4.

Another 'trick' that I've used in coaching golf is to find a series of words that match, so that one does not think they are counting but merely talking. Talking is more natural than counting.

The beat of a waltz is 1 2 3. It can be counted in a fast tempo of 123 or a more slow tempo of 1____2____3 . In the movie, Tin Cup, Kevin Costner/ Roy rather naturally & softly said 'Dol Lar Bills'. which is also a visual for a divot.

To me. 1 & 2 & 3 is too many beats FOR ME. My loose connection to the cue stroke is more of a 4 beat timing, something like, 'back AND stroke it. While my firm connection to the cue stroke is a 3 beat timing , like, 'back AND through'.

Like I said earlier, it's not so much the speed as we all have different internal clocks but it's about the timing of that individual tempo.

Tempo is the speed of the beat & the timing is how & when that speed is 'counted'.

To me, the timing of a good individual tempo(speed) is important. One has to find the timing for their individual internal tempo.

At least in my opinion.

Again, Good Post John.

Best 2 You & All,
Rick

PS I've seen some rather good strokes lose their effectiveness when an individual has slowed down TOO much & ruined their timing. Perhaps it's because their focus is on that when it should be on other matters. I'm not sure & I'd bet it's different for each individual as that is what we are...individuals.
 
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Im not sure if pulling the cue back too quick is the most common, but it is definitely a major problem.

I think pulling back too slow also creates tension. It is about finding your own ryhthm. A rythm in which everything feels natural and not forced, doesnt give you chance to tighten or loosen the grip and one that allows you to hit where you want. Some can do this pulling back at the speed of light, others have to slow it right down.
 
colin, yes i hit almost a half tip of left side on every shot if i don't concentrate and use a long backswing. :mad: i have very very very bad basics, but i do play ok and pockets are big in pool if you aren't shooting 8ft shots. (probably my memory and aiming compensates this partially? no idea, i don't think about it, i just do) its just that all the rest of my game has improved so much , i never payed attention to basics as i was improving allround.

even during long warmup strokes in noticed in the video's that my albow goes outwards a bit on every warmupstroke (probably why i play better with no warmup stroke at all). I could block the movement by blocking my elbow or only using short backstroke shots, but then everything feels blocked and I don't get the cueaction i want.

Now if i want to move beyond this level i'm stuck in for some time now, i need to improve my basics to get more precise on everything else. i have to watch my wrist, forearm, elbow, shoulder, pullback movement, body alignment and its a nightmare mentally. (its not simple pulling the arm back slowly so no jerky backswing movement is done) its just that everything is aligned incorrectly. pulling back slowly, trying to use only one muscle isn't going to solve that if your shoulder-elbow is not aligned. If i train it A LOT i can get it all working straight for a day or 2-3. BUt thinking of ALL that + patterns, positions, tactics etc + position + stress factor is just impossible and i have been playing a lot worse but i know this is a temporary setback if i want to improve.

a simple lag shot back and forward with center hit, comes back to my top maybe 3/10 if i don't concentrate on it and just hit it firm. when i concentrate and play slow maybe i can get it to 6/10. it's just SO many things aligned wrong, that its very hard to get them all working correctly aligned together. I'm a natural player. i feel the ball, i feel the angles, i feel the speed, I just know when i'm on, but my technique is very very bad. My best game is 14-1 and my worst is 9ball, why? simple the further the shot, the more important fundamentals become. i play a mean 7ft Barr table pool but i can't pot a single snooker ball. fundamentals. and every shot that needs a bit of more power or a longer backswing is just *crossing fingers and hoping i'm not misaligned to much* wich is a nightmare in straightpool when you are king at solving problems, bumping balls in position, opening racks, clusters etc (making the hard points), but you miss 80% of your breakshots/longshots due to unwanted movement due to increased speed (and leave open tables, the easy points).

but i'm working on it for 2years now, and wish i had an assistant behind me who could check everything for me :D but it's improving, i just need to shoot A LOT of balls for it to become naturally, but often it feels like shooting with the opposite arm. very awkward, but when its all aligned it just feels like floating.


i'm thinking of investing in a webcam and a tv so i can watch myself on tv from behind and the side when shooting.
 
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Just maybe

That reminds me of hand gun shooting. The best sight picture in the world won't help if one has poor trigger skills. Many anticipate the shot, so they rush the trigger press at the end and wonder why the got a poor hit. I will check your observations out.
 
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