Inside VS Outside

SJDinPHX said:
Boy Eye-man, are you sure you're not older than me ?..You sure are set in your ways !..I'm not satisfied with your answer on paragraph 2..Who gives a shite what Mika is doing ?...You did not address my thoughts on WHY commentators act surprised, at the use of inside english, when it is uncalled for...By the way, I know many different ways to 'kill' my cue ball, coming off a thin cut..(straight draw is one way, unless its too close to the rail)

Just for grins, I used to add a little challenge to cutting the long frozen 2 ball, the length of the table..I would put the cue ball, on a piece of chalk, on the wooden part of the end rail, and cut it in either pocket ! (I would bet I could do it, in under 6 tries)..Naturally, this shot calls for exxxtreeeeme inside english, so you would REALLY love it ! :D :D :D

PS..BTW...You win the speed typing contest...hands down ! :sorry:
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I think the commentators are surprised because THEY don't understand inside English. It is only UNNATURAL because they haven't used it ENOUGH to make it NATURAL. To ME, inside is as natural as outside. I use both and I'm not advocating that everyone play this style. Play whatever you play best with. Whatever English you use is "uncalled for" if you get out of line...I get out of line WAY LESS using inside.

And I LOVE the shot you described. I done it hundreds of times. I remember St Louis Louie betting he could do it 1 out of 3 if I remember correctly when I saw him last.

I have a shot that I make every weekend with a few tries that has WAY more inside than that. Look at the diagram I posted with the 2 on the end rail and the cue ball where it is. Now move the cue ball along the same line but one diamond or more closer to the rail where the 3 is. Now cut the 2 in the left corner...the one on the same rail that the 3 is sitting on. That requires a bit of INSIDE.
 
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CJ Wiley said:
Just like in golf and tennis, you need to be able to "move" the ball either way. In golf you draw or fade (hook or slice), and in tennis you use topspin, slice, american twist etc.

The inside is best to practice because it will open up some shots that few have seen and it gets the player comfortable with using deflection as a tool.
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Dang it CJ...We were having a nice adult conversation here...Now you want to get off on golf &
tennis ! AGAIN..."Move your own balls", if you don't mind..(or maybe the Eye-man's) :grin: :grin: :grin: :groucho:
 
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Shots where IE is very useful

I find that inside english is particularly useful for doubling out of corners. These shots are quite forgiving regardless of amount of spin as the two rails tend to cancel each other out.

It's a great way to get the CB toward the center of the table along a predictable path. Speed control takes some practice as does accounting for the throw, particularly on the softer straighter shots.

Here are the most common examples.
 

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I think one of the main reasons inside is harder for many players is that they're not as experienced with it as with outside, and the biggest reason for this is that outside spin is usually running spin on the nearest rail, so it's naturally favored.

Here's something I said about inside vs. outside spin a while back:

Why are inside-english shots more difficult for some people?

It's a combination of things:

1. You use it less often (partly because you're not as good with it).
2. You use it for different (often more difficult) shots.
3. You use different spin with it (usually high vs. usually center or low).
4. You hit it at a different speed (usually harder).
5. It's less self-correcting.

Pay attention to these things while practicing inside and outside shots and you'll get better at inside pretty quickly.
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pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think one of the main reasons inside is harder for many players is that they're not as experienced with it as with outside, and the biggest reason for this is that outside spin is usually running spin on the nearest rail, so it's naturally favored.

Here's something I said about inside vs. outside spin a while back:



pj
chgo
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I actually like using inside and do so when I want to move the ball diffetently. Inside is also natural feelling to ma as well. I just play my game to favor outside. Not that its right but I just play more consistently...
 
A couple more..

A couple more of my favorite inside english shots, these using draw, that come up reasonably often.
 

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Patrick Johnson said:
The speed at which the CB's surface rubs across the OB's surface matters - slower rubbing usually = more friction and more throw.

With outside spin the CB is passing the OB in one direction while the CB's surface (on the side that touches the OB) is moving in the opposite direction, slowing the rubbing speed, which increases friction and throw.

With inside spin the CB and its surface are both moving in the same direction relative to the OB, speeding up the rubbing speed, which decreases friction and throw.

So outside spin tends to throw more than inside.

pj
chgo
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Hmm, what you're saying makes sense, but my understanding is that you can effectively cancel out throw by using some outside english, which also makes sense to me. Are you talking about really thin cuts?
 
Some Passover Banks

HawaiianEye said:
Can you think of any shots that can be made with outside that you can't make with inside? I mean that are the degree of difficulty as the shots shown in the diagram.
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I don't think there is a standard shot that if you can make it with outside that it cant be made with inside but there are a whole lot of shots where Outside gives you a margin of error due to the throw cancellation where as if you applied the same hit with inside it just wont work. Inside needs a thinner cut at times.

There are some Passover banks that it would be difficult to make with inside unless you pounded the cue ball that you can ease in with outside.

That is the only ones I can think of right off.
 
Inside Tracking

This diagram demonstrates the predictability of inside english doubling around the corner pockets. In the diagram, the shots are all around 7/8ths full with follow and IE. On thinner angle cuts you can estimate the the angle of travel based on these patterns. Once you know these, you can travel through the center line of the table within 2 ball widths of your target consistently.

Note that it's very hard to scratch, provided you are spinning the CB well.
 

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Inside Tracking off End Rail

To complete the series, here are the approximate tracks for inside english doubling off the end rail first. Note again that the center pockets don't come into play and that the tracks are quite predictable. Again, these are for 7/8ths full shots, 80% inside english with follow. Tracks can be extrapolated for finer cuts and hitting further up or down the rail based on experience.

Note that an initial 'angle of incidence' differential of around 90 degrees is reduced to an 'angle of reflection' differential of around 20 degrees after the doubling. This is a powerful tool for CB control.
 

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BRussell said:
Hmm, what you're saying makes sense, but my understanding is that you can effectively cancel out throw by using some outside english, which also makes sense to me. Are you talking about really thin cuts?
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Yes, a certain amount of outside spin is "gearing" English for each cut angle. But throw is created for every other amount of spin.

And while no amount of inside spin is gearing English, that also means that the speed of the rubbing surfaces tends to be faster with inside English, which tends to decrease throw.

pj
chgo
 
HawaiianEye said:
I think the commentators are surprised because THEY don't understand inside English. It is only UNNATURAL because they haven't used it ENOUGH to make it NATURAL.<--Sorry Eyeman, ain't buyin' it..So you are saying guys like Cardone, Grady, or DD, didn't recognize the potential pitfalls, of using inside English ?

I LOVE the shot you described. I done it hundreds of times. I remember St Louis Louie betting he could do it 1 out of 3 if I remember correctly when I saw him last.
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Well ya jerked the old mem-strings, bringing up Louie..God love him !..Louie could give up the nuts, quicker than anybody I've ever seen !..We chumed around a little together here in Phoenix, we both liked to drink (too much) and he was fun to party with ! ;)

Anyway, one time I staked him to play a real go-off, even, that I played 10/7...He never won a game!..But I kept him sober for the rematch..He managed to win about one game out of ten, before we got busted !..Louie's head was not shaped right for one pocket

I was saving up for another run at the guy, when I found out on the news, like all of us did..that one "Lewis Roberts" had, (police believed) committed suicide !.. Roberts is a fairly common name, but when they added that he was a 'professional pool player', my heart sunk !..Everyone here, including me, thinks he was killed by the biatches brother !..Sh*tty way to go..Still miss him !
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
Yes, a certain amount of outside spin is "gearing" English for each cut angle. But throw is created for every other amount of spin.

And while no amount of inside spin is gearing English, that also means that the speed of the rubbing surfaces tends to be faster with inside English, which tends to decrease throw.

pj
chgo
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The exception to this tendency is a zone where SIT is greater than the comparative CIT throw one experiences on a natural rolling CB pot. It is exaggerated at lower speeds, fuller contact and with marginal inside english, from about 1/8 to 3/4 tip offset.

For this reason, I use larger tip offsets, 1 tip+ and more speed as much as is practicable. That said, on probably 50% of my doubling shots, I have to adjust my aim a little to allow for more thickening throw than I would get from rolling the CB at medium speed.

Colin
 
I use inside more on force follow shots and shots when I need to get the correct angle coming off the rail with the cue ball. I seldom use inside on draw shots.
 
alstl said:
I use inside more on force follow shots and shots when I need to get the correct angle coming off the rail with the cue ball. I seldom use inside on draw shots.
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Does it really matter ?..A good solid pool player, (at least every one I've ever known) uses whatever ya gotta use, to get where you're tryin' to go !..When has it EVER been any different ? :confused:
 
I'll still play anyone in the country 20 straight hours and prove TOI dominates

SJDinPHX said:
Does it really matter ?..A good solid pool player, (at least every one I've ever known) uses whatever ya gotta use, to get where you're tryin' to go !..When has it EVER been any different ? :confused:
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This is flawed thinking and won't hold up under the pressure of playing someone that has mastered the 'Touch of Inside'. There's a lot to be said about mastering one particular shot that you can use in almost every situation.

You can argue all you want, I'll still play anyone in the country 20 straight hours and prove it beyond any doubt!

Care to try SJD? Or maybe someone you know would? I love to play and would enjoy playing a 20+ hour set using the TOI as much as possible. This would be fun for everyone involved, there's nothing like a long set to get the stroke "fine-tuned".
 
.you may have been a decent bowler

SJDinPHX said:
Dang it CJ...We were having a nice adult conversation here...Now you want to get off on golf and
tennis ! AGAIN..."Move your own balls", if you don't mind..(or maybe the Eye-man's) :grin: :grin: :grin: :groucho:
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Golf, tennis and pool have a lot more in common than you would know.
 
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