cue joint

[RBC]

A while back, Murray Tucker posted an article summarizing the results of the McChesney blind experiment from 1991. The link to his post is provided. I believe these results are just below random guessing, but probably not significantly so.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3286694&postcount=18

I use 5/16x14 SS piloted because I like the cue's balance pretty far forward. It is the easiest way to get that type of balance. While I like compression as the joint is assembled, but having lost that over time in my cues, I can't say I like them any less.

Sealegs

Thanks for posting that. I hadn't seen it before.

Although I was not around Dallas in 91, I did become friends with John McChesney a few years later. He and I talked cues quite a bit, and he often mentioned that test. He offered to bet people that swore they could tell the joint differences in a similar test many times. No one, that I know of, ever took him up on it. I've dome similar tests for myself. They were on a much smaller scale, but the results were similar. I'm not saying that there aren't differences in hit and feel, but the joint screw has much less to do with it than a few other things that nobody ever really talks about.


Royce Bunnell

 

[The Captain]

Yeah...opinions and real world experience. This is anecdotal evidence. I live in a world where people use physics and scientific methods before claiming that something is better than anything else. Until I see that evidence, I will remain stubborn to what my knowledge of physics dictates.

You may not be stubborn (though your absolutely closed mind on the subject suggests otherwise), but you certainly are willing to insult others.

Bless your heart, the years can set one in his ways.

ElCorazonFrio.... You seam to be the one that's close minded and insulting others. Calling me a kissass. Do us all a favor and grow up. If you will reread the first post by the OP... He SPECIFICALLY asks for.... Here's the key word HE uses... OPINIONS

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

ElCorazonFrio.... You seam to be the one that's close minded and insulting others. Calling me a kissass. Do us all a favor and grow up. If you will reread the first post by the OP... He SPECIFICALLY asks for.... Here's the key word HE uses... OPINIONS

Yeah, the kissass thing was out of line, but here was the original question:

"It's probably been asked before but here we go again what is the best joint on a pool cue i always liked 3/8x10 just want some more opinions thanks. "

Here was Bava's original reply:

"Big pin flat ivory joints....3/8x10 or 3/8x11 or Radial Pin.......but always with a flat ivory joint."

Here is what I said:

"
Doesn't really matter unless you let yourself believe it does. Nobody can tell the difference between them by feel...even if they think they can.

The only thing I say, from an engineer's point of view is that the joints with a relatively tight tolerance between pin and female thread drive me nuts. There is no benefit to having a tight fit on the pin. Anybody who uses or claims to use the screw as a locating feature (especially the radial and flat-bottom threads) needs to take a remedial course in design. "

To which Bava responded:

"eddie0776....he's got a lot to still learn......look at the masterpiece cues made by all the greats.......ivory was the joint of choice.....simple metallurgy testifies there's a difference......a steel pin housed inside an all wood shaft is what a flat faced ivory joint uses....the butt joint face is flat, smooth ivory....the shaft face is all wood....no metal anyway....all flat smooth wood that seats securely against a flat ivory joint......and he thinks screwing together a 5/16x14 piloted steel joint into a shaft that has a brass receiver weighing almost 1/2 oz. doesn't produce"any" different feel?????"

Stones were thrown, but I didn't throw the first.

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

ElCorazonFrio.... You seam to be the one that's close minded and insulting others. Calling me a kissass. Do us all a favor and grow up. If you will reread the first post by the OP... He SPECIFICALLY asks for.... Here's the key word HE uses... OPINIONS

By-the-by, your first post was rather demeaning:

"bstroud
AzB Silver Member

bstroud has a reputation beyond repute
bstroud has a reputation beyond repute
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bstroud has a reputation beyond repute
bstroud has a reputation beyond repute
bstroud has a reputation beyond repute
bstroud has a reputation beyond repute
bstroud has a reputation beyond repute
bstroud has a reputation beyond repute
bstroud has a reputation beyond repute
bstroud has a reputation beyond repute

Status: Offline
Posts: 454
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Join Date: Dec 2004

Today, 08:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As the inventor of the 3/8x10 and the Radial I have to say they both play well.
I just prefer the precision of the Radial and the way it fits into the wood shaft.
Bill S.

I have a sneaky suspicion... This "ROOKIE" might know a thing or two about cue making. From what I hear, he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. LOL!!! "

So you can tell me where I did more than react in kind.

As far as quoting Mr. Stroud's sterling reputation, maybe you should dig up the DYD threads (That's 'Design Your Dream' in case you haven't been reading this forum for very long).

Good luck to you.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Sealegs

Thanks for posting that. I hadn't seen it before.

Although I was not around Dallas in 91, I did become friends with John McChesney a few years later. He and I talked cues quite a bit, and he often mentioned that test. He offered to bet people that swore they could tell the joint differences in a similar test many times. No one, that I know of, ever took him up on it. I've dome similar tests for myself. They were on a much smaller scale, but the results were similar. I'm not saying that there aren't differences in hit and feel, but the joint screw has much less to do with it than a few other things that nobody ever really talks about.


Royce Bunnell

B/c it's a can of worms .

 

[Straightpool_99]

ECF........stop embarrassing yourself with your pathetic ignorant opinions about cue-making.......you speak as if you've actually accomplished anything in life to accredit you in wood crafting.......let alone pool cues

Your remarks are reminiscent of someone looking to ague about something they have absolutely little understanding about......ECF might play a great game of pool but that hardly qualifies him to express such expert opinions about pool cue construction......it's moronic posts such as his that keeps the Forum entertaining and depressing concurrently.

Mr. Stroud, on behalf of pool cue entusiasts everywhere, thank you for your contributions and please forgive the antics and mindless utterings from some highly opinionated Azer who has so much to still learn about cue-making but with his mindset, that might be unattainable.

Matt B.

Do you feel at all silly now that you know that this guy is not only an engineer, but a cuemaker as well? His posts has been among the most informative and interesting in a long time. Moronic, eh?! You, on the other hand, have a claim to authority based on owning a lot of expensive cues..

Even your idol, Welchy McDeal the hof cuemaker and indian giver, doesn't think the flat faced 3/8*10 is the summit of cue joints achievements! How do you feel about that?

When I think about state of the art of cue joint design, I'd have something like the Layani joint or Uni-lock in mind, not something any high school student could slap toghether in the shop (even if the execution by a cuemaker is better than he could achieve, the idea is not).

 

[9Ballr]

I agree 100% with this statement.
And I have been playing pool for too many decades to care to count them.


"Doesn't really matter unless you let yourself believe it does. Nobody can tell the difference between them by feel...even if they think they can."

Although I prefer radial, but that's based on the assembly NOT the feel.
I've never felt any difference between the joints.
It's one of the many pool myths out there.
It fades in comparison to the "low deflection shafts are awesome" myth but it's one of many.

 

[DAVE_M]

I personally don't think the joint type matters. IMO, what matters the most, is the balance of the cue compared to the players preference.

 

[ceebee]

Well... if none of this matters, why not play with a stick off the wall & save a bunch of money. I'm sure the Pool Room will make sure all the cues have good tips.

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

Well... if none of this matters, why not play with a stick off the wall & save a bunch of money. I'm sure the Pool Room will make sure all the cues have good tips.

I think I allowed this discussion to have a huge disconnect.

What I was starting out trying to argue is that the joint has almost no bearing on how the cueball reacts to being hit with a cuestick.

I also believe that the joint offers little difference in the feedback of the cue.

The joint is extremely important in the ability of a cue to stay straight, stay aligned and stay solid.

I also fully believe that comfort matters, but that is completely subjective and I would sacrifice comfort for the right amount of performance.

This was all fun until the wheels fell off.

 

[galipeau]

Hey guys , realize a majority of ya'all prefer the big pins.
I've 2 different customs with 3-8-11pin and 4 other more well known custom with 3-8-10 yet i still always go back to my 3-8-11's. Wierd right ?!

Moreover i posted yesterday regarding how i adore 3-8-11 and i got a couple telling me its B.S n that its impossible for me to feel the difference of 1 extra thread but i feel i can.
am i dellusional or its just a "feel" thing ?

Another of my favourite pin is mezz exclusive united joint, really solid hit ?!
F.y.i i dislike their radial joint, lacks power i feel ?

Any fans out there of the 3/8/11 n united joint ?

Peace
Ryan

Not sure if anyone's addressed this question yet... haven't gotten that far in the thread yet.

But no, the number of threads on a pin would not be noticeable. At all.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Not a fan of the " United" joint here.

 

[ceebee]

please note >>>> we hold onto the cue somewhere around the balance point of the cue. Between that point of feel & where the tip strikes the ball are different pieces of the cue & different materials, not even considering the feeling of holding the wrap of choice.

We've all heard the phrase "weak link in the chain".

Some of us have used different cues & selected one that feels good to us, for play.

If feel & construction means so very little, get yourself a Players Cue & sell your Southwest ticket. I had a Southwest once, I sold it. I played with a Jimmy Ingram once it was something play with. I also had a Richard Black, it was sweet. Me & eBay were good friends, so I unloaded them all.

I still have some nice cues, gonna unload them too. My Guido Orlandi is the best I ever had. That is my choice of cue, several folks that have gotten them one feel the same way. I do hope that you folks feel the same about your choice of cues.

If you are not satisfied with your cue, play with one off the wall, because most folks don't believe in Magic Wands... but I do.

 

[galipeau]

The feel of the cue matters to some. Saying that the cue ball has left the tip before the vibrations get to the joint may be true. But it's besides the point I think. Most of these arguments stem from a difference in preference. I like cues that have some feel in the handle section. Some like no feeling at all. It may not be the joint construction alone that results in this feeling, but that feeling or "hit" is still is important to some degree (at least in my opinion).

 

[JoeyInCali]

dead horse

 

[ceebee]

I doubt that statement is true. How else would the player be able to feel the hit, in his grip hand, if the vibrations has ceased before they got back to the players grip hand, way passed the joint. JMHO

 

[RBC]

The feel of the cue matters to some. Saying that the cue ball has left the tip before the vibrations get to the joint may be true. But it's besides the point I think. Most of these arguments stem from a difference in preference. I like cues that have some feel in the handle section. Some like no feeling at all. It may not be the joint construction alone that results in this feeling, but that feeling or "hit" is still is important to some degree (at least in my opinion).

The fact that the cueball has left the tip long before any vibrations have reached the back hand doesn't change anything as far as the feel goes. I think the concept is used to rebut those who claim to be able to adjust their stroke during the hit based on the feedback they feel in the butt. Any changes you make to your stroke based on what you feel during the hit are all well past the time when the cueball has already left the tip. It's the same reason that a joint can't really affect cue ball deflection. Before any forces reach the joint area, the cueball has already left the tip

Personally, I think there are many things that can change the way a cue feels when it hits the cueball. With all else being equal, which is often impossible, I don't think the joint pin is one of them. At least not to the degree that it's commonly perceived to be.


Royce

 

[galipeau]

. I think the concept is used to rebut those who claim to be able to adjust their stroke during the hit based on the feedback they feel in the butt. Any changes you make to your stroke based on what you feel during the hit are all well past the time when the cueball has already left the tip.

Royce

Haha, that's a new one to me! You'd have to have super powers to do that. Thanks for your input Royce. You always seem to provide a voice of reason here on the forums.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Try reading what Dr. Dave wrote about "feel," "hit," "feedback," and "playability"....see below or else just go back and read Post #18......the cue joint is a important factor......Nuf Ced!

Matt B.




What do "feel," "hit," "feedback," and "playability" really mean in relation to a cue, and do they affect a shot?

These are qualitative phrases used to describe the force, shock (impulse), vibration, and sound a player feels and/or hears during and after (but mostly after) the cue tip hits the cue ball.

The "feel" and "sound" of a hit are affected by shot speed and how far the tip hits off center. They are also affected by:

tip type, hardness, and efficiency
ferrule type and material
shaft material, design, size, and taper
joint material, design, and construction
butt material, design, and construction (including the wrap and end bumper)
There are many physical attributes that contribute to how a cue "plays" and whether or not it is physically "comfortable" to a player. Here is a partial list:

shaft straightness
tip condition, type, shape, hardness, and efficiency
tip diameter and shaft taper, especially if a closed bridge is used
cue weight, balance, and mass distribution
the amount of endmass, which determines the amount of squirt (CB deflection)
These things can definitely affect how a cue "plays." For example, with a similar stroke and off-center hit, a heavy high-squirt cue with a hard tip will create very different CB motion (speed and direction) than a light low-squirt cue with a soft tip. The "hits" will also feel and sound very different. And with draw shots, if the CB has less speed for a given stroke (because the cue and tip have less efficiency), more backspin will be lost due to cloth drag on the way to the OB, which will result in less draw for a given tip offset from center.

Craftsmanship, manufacturing quality, and artistry are also important attributes of a cue to some people, especially to cue collectors.

The shock and vibration is felt and the sound is heard after the CB is already gone, so they have no direct effect on the outcome of a shot; although, some people claim the "feel" is important to getting good "feedback" on the shot (indicating if the CB was struck well with the appropriate speed), but not all players place importance on this. To many, observing what the CB does is "feedback" enough.

A cue's flex or vibration can't have much to do with the physics between the tip and CB during the extremely brief (approximately 0.001 second) impact time. Most of the flex and vibration occurs well after the CB is gone. For example, see:

HSV A.25 - Cue deflection and vibration due to firm stroke with english

and

HSV A.76a - close-up of tip during off-center hit

The vibration (see other videos here) affects the "feel" of the cue, but it doesn't have much (if any) effect on the physics between the tip and CB. Although, the "feel" and "sound" of a hit is related to cue and tip efficiency, which does make a difference. A stiffer cue with a harder tip will generally provide a more efficient hit (delivering more speed to the CB for a given stroke effort).

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

Try reading what Dr. Dave wrote about "feel," "hit," "feedback," and "playability"....see below or else just go back and read Post #18......the cue joint is a important factor......Nuf Ced!

Matt B.




What do "feel," "hit," "feedback," and "playability" really mean in relation to a cue, and do they affect a shot?

These are qualitative phrases used to describe the force, shock (impulse), vibration, and sound a player feels and/or hears during and after (but mostly after) the cue tip hits the cue ball.

The "feel" and "sound" of a hit are affected by shot speed and how far the tip hits off center. They are also affected by:

tip type, hardness, and efficiency
ferrule type and material
shaft material, design, size, and taper
joint material, design, and construction
butt material, design, and construction (including the wrap and end bumper)
There are many physical attributes that contribute to how a cue "plays" and whether or not it is physically "comfortable" to a player. Here is a partial list:

shaft straightness
tip condition, type, shape, hardness, and efficiency
tip diameter and shaft taper, especially if a closed bridge is used
cue weight, balance, and mass distribution
the amount of endmass, which determines the amount of squirt (CB deflection)
These things can definitely affect how a cue "plays." For example, with a similar stroke and off-center hit, a heavy high-squirt cue with a hard tip will create very different CB motion (speed and direction) than a light low-squirt cue with a soft tip. The "hits" will also feel and sound very different. And with draw shots, if the CB has less speed for a given stroke (because the cue and tip have less efficiency), more backspin will be lost due to cloth drag on the way to the OB, which will result in less draw for a given tip offset from center.

Craftsmanship, manufacturing quality, and artistry are also important attributes of a cue to some people, especially to cue collectors.

The shock and vibration is felt and the sound is heard after the CB is already gone, so they have no direct effect on the outcome of a shot; although, some people claim the "feel" is important to getting good "feedback" on the shot (indicating if the CB was struck well with the appropriate speed), but not all players place importance on this. To many, observing what the CB does is "feedback" enough.

A cue's flex or vibration can't have much to do with the physics between the tip and CB during the extremely brief (approximately 0.001 second) impact time. Most of the flex and vibration occurs well after the CB is gone. For example, see:

HSV A.25 - Cue deflection and vibration due to firm stroke with english

and

HSV A.76a - close-up of tip during off-center hit

The vibration (see other videos here) affects the "feel" of the cue, but it doesn't have much (if any) effect on the physics between the tip and CB. Although, the "feel" and "sound" of a hit is related to cue and tip efficiency, which does make a difference. A stiffer cue with a harder tip will generally provide a more efficient hit (delivering more speed to the CB for a given stroke effort).

Man, you just read what you want to read. That which you quoted from Dr. Dave says that the joint type and design are A factor. One factor. Not 'an important' factor. Hell, the finish that is used on the cue is also a factor. Look, I must be smarter than Dr. Dave--he didn't say that was a factor. Oh, the oils from your hand and the chalk dust on the shaft are also factors of how it hits. The temperature of the room is a factor. The humidity is a factor.

Dr. Dave didn't say how big of a factor the joint is, and considering that he lists eight things before it, I'm guessing he doesn't figure it is that important.

I'm through with you. You and Captain don't actually read what is written, you read what you want to be written.