Anyone play 3C and other games well here?

I will say this about 3 cushion. I took an entire year off from playing pool and only played 3 cushion several times a week. When I started playing pool again I was a better player almost instantly.

There is a lot you can learn from all the different games (rotation, straight pool, one pocket, banks, 8 ball, 3 cushion, snooker, etc.) that you can carry over to the other games.
 
I have never gotten hung up in high runs, it's more managing all games that has always been important to me. Why?

When I was a kid in the early 70's, I was at a 14.1 pro tournament and asked Steve Mizerak what his high run was, he said: "my high run is 280 but give me those steady-eddie 80's, that will help win matches and tournaments." I have always equated 4, 5 and 6's in 3-C to those steady-eddie 80's in 14.1. Yes 10+ runs are nice, but if you are always going for high runs, you typically will not be playing safe along the way. The top players can get a way with that formula because they are awesome, but the average to above average player better try to hold their opponent in check.

I'm not even sure why I typed this but I thought maybe it would be useful to some - I hope so.

Dave
 
I play mostly snooker and pool. I'm about the same level in snooker and straight pool. I am T E R R I B L E at 3c. I've given it my best shot, and decided that the game is not for me. I hate the cues, I hate most of the shots...I like to be in firm control at the table, which is why I love straight pool, snooker etc. I think the only games I like at the carom table are straight rail and balkline. I those games you shoot small shots with firm control of all balls, which appeals to me. I hate swinging away in 3 cushion and shooting shots where you can score off either 3 or 5 cushions..it's so ugly to me. Don't get me wrong, I like spinning the ball, just not scraping the paint of a ball and whizzing around the table 14 times...The guy trying to teach me was always yelling at me that I didn't shoot hard enough. I kept coming up short and ending up with the cueball frozen to the red when I actually did score, lol. It makes sense, I play pool and snooker the same way, soft shots, gentle spin, getting up close and personal. Picking apart a rack from the inside in straight pool, THAT'S beautiful to me.
 
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efirkey said:
I will say this about 3 cushion. I took an entire year off from playing pool and only played 3 cushion several times a week. When I started playing pool again I was a better player almost instantly.

There is a lot you can learn from all the different games (rotation, straight pool, one pocket, banks, 8 ball, 3 cushion, snooker, etc.) that you can carry over to the other games.
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Very Smart, I am sure your cue ball control increased 10 times over.

When you say better I don't think some people will understand just how much of a jump you made once you got settled in. Many players will not move up 1/2 ball in a year and never understand why.
Many can learn from your post.

Sincerely:SS
 
The main area were I saw the most improvement was in kicking for hits and kicking for safeties. After playing 3 cushion for a year I was no longer guessing on my kick shots, hoping to make hits, and hoping to get lucky. I knew I was going to make hits and many times I can play safe off of my kicks by controlling the speed of the cue ball and knowing where both the object ball and cue ball are going after contact.

To anyone trying to improve their game. Don't be afraid to play and practice other games. Straight pool is great for concentration and patterns; one pocket for mental play, strategy, banks, creative thinking; 8 ball for patterns; 9 ball for moving the cue ball great distances and big stroke shots; 3 cushion for kicking and controlling multiple balls; etc. etc.
 
I play' em both OK.

3-Cushion is my favorite game now. I get a chance to try big stroke shots that never come up in pool. Years ago I was playing tavern league 8-ball and 3C at the same time. I get the same satisfaction from a run of 5 in billiards as I do from getting out from the break on the bar box.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think that running 1 at 3-cushion is roughly equivalent to running 10 at straight pool, so a run of 10 billiards would be like a run of 100. The highest 3-C run in competition is 28 (in a 3-way tie) while the highest 14.1 run is Appleton's recent 200 and out.

I've heard that Don Feeney once had runs of 100 at 14.1, 10 at 3-C and a 100 at snooker in the same week. That's a pretty good triple-threat.
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This doesn't compute with me. +300 is a high run by bunches of 14.1 players, +400 a handful, a +500, and a +600. No 3c players have +30s, +40s, a +50, or a +60.

It doesn't matter if it's practice or tourney competition. By citing only tourney play, you're not scoping the breadth of scoring in both sports.
 
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LAlouie said:
This doesn't compute with me. +300 is a high run by bunches of 14.1 players, +400 a handful, a +500, and a +600. No 3c players have +30s, +40s, a +50, or a +60.

It doesn't matter if it's practice or tourney competition. By citing only tourney play, you're not scoping the breadth of scoring in both sports.
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Fine. Throw in a factor of two more difficulty for 3-C if you like. The problem is that 14.1 is a game that can be more or less mastered as can the small games at carom billiards so if you start including the runs of masters, such as Mosconi and Cranfield and Engert, the comparison is skewed. Another problem is that table difficulty varies a lot more for 14.1.

Using myself as an example, I have played in a 3-C event where I got several runs of 7. I have never, ever played in a 14.1 event where I got several runs of 70. I think the ratio is different for different levels of players.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
Fine. Throw in a factor of two more difficulty for 3-C if you like. The problem is that 14.1 is a game that can be more or less mastered as can the small games at carom billiards so if you start including the runs of masters, such as Mosconi and Cranfield and Engert, the comparison is skewed. Another problem is that table difficulty varies a lot more for 14.1.

Using myself as an example, I have played in a 3-C event where I got several runs of 7. I have never, ever played in a 14.1 event where I got several runs of 70. I think the ratio is different for different levels of players.
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By citing high runs I was making a case for all general players, just as you cite tourney play as your basis of comparison. For my part, my high is 93 and I was ecstatic to pop a lucky two in a row in 3c. I am just the opposite of you. Now granted I really never play 3c but I think a hard ratio comparing two entirely different disciplines has no real common denominator.

Nonetheless I was comparing the best of the best against the best of the best, and for moi that is a good enough comparison over a hard number.:)
 
If there's any American players or anyone that lives in America (U.S.A.)and likes to play 3 cushion and other games, I will let my roommate play anyone a set of 3 cushion and a set of 10 ball or Bank Pool(on a 9ft).
Only 1 guy is barred, Rafael Martinez.

We just like to gamble a little. Nothing to big. Anything up to 5k.
Only stipulation is it has to take place in Houston.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think the highest pro average in a 3C tournament is still less than 3. I don't know if an average of 1 at 3C is better than an average of 10 at 14.1. They sound closer to me than they do to you.

pj
chgo
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No way. I spoke about this to Mazin Shooni, a top 3C player near me. He said there are only 6 players in the US that average 1.0 or better. I agree that many B players in pool may routinely run 10 balls. I think top pros average *well* above 10 balls per inning. Hard to say for sure, but it certainly sounded like an average of 1.0 in 3C is considerably more rare than an average of 10 balls per inning in 14.1. That being said, I play 3C about as often as I play 14.1, which is essentially never. Though ironically my high run in 3C is 4 or 5 (can't remember) but my high run in 14.1 is only 37 lol. So I may be full of crap...lol.

KMRUNOUT
 
hang-the-9 said:
I've been to Mazin's room, nice room but don't like the membership thing since I can't go there often enough to justify paying for it.

My son beat Mazin in a 9 ball tournament there a bit over a year ago and someone took a picture of them together.

I was just amazed at that 10+ run that I saw, the guy was shooting 3-4-5 rails shots with spin and acting like they were hangers.
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IIRC, from what you've told us, your son is a pretty good young player. Perhaps you should consider having him take 3C lessons and having him teach you. Being a solid 3C player does not seem to have been a distraction for Efren Reyes.

Perhaps my experience is limited, but Boston seems to be a great place to take interest in 3C. There are players in the city and surrounding towns. I did not commit to developing skills in the game because I only lived in the area on weekdays and could not be so sure how long my job would last there. I am not longer in the area and I don't know anybody who plays near my home. But you have the facilities locally and people to play and learn more from. I have seen Mazin run 9. He knows shots commonly that experienced players don't even consider.

There are quite a few great 3C matches on YouTube to watch.
 
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It's pretty tough to compare the games with numbers.
I am an above average 3C player with runs in the double digits, the runs mean nothing.

You can miss 10 shots in a row by an eyelash then run 7, 4, 4, 3, 5, 2, 2, 6, then miss 5 in a row. You can be left safe time after time and have to come up with and create incredible shots to score a point. Hangers and big balls are so easy to miss, by an eyelash. My high run ended on a hanger, a big ball in the corner. I missed it on the way in and on the way out, what we call an all around good shot, no point.

I thought who I was until I started playing the best. They were spotting me 50-24 and it was tough to win. I was unable to go shot for shot, their position was incredible, and their safety game left me having to make magical shots most of the time, they leave very few naturals. Every once in a while I would squeak out a win. I had a reality check. I was an above average player and realized as good as I was I was not that good. It was a humbling experience to say the least.

Most don't realize how well they come into balls to push a ball in a direction for position or a two way shot, position for them, a safe against you; the speed, it's more than scoring points or getting out in a few innings.
You better learn to play safe.

Billiard players are great people, always sharing info and technique with each other, beginners, and anyone who will listen. They would play for the ticket or gamble with me cheap, knowing I was willing to pay to learn and improve, they respected that and never tried to break my bank, always gentlemen, They treated me with respect and helped my game a lot.
It's difficult to make number comparisons but I will say this, a hanger in pocket billiards and a hanger in 3 cushion are worlds apart. Everyone should play 3 cushion, you will be the better for it.

You don't know what you don’t know until you know it
Sincerely:SS
 
So true SmoothStroke. 3-C has a different attitude than pool, not as aggressive, more collegial. Billiards is not an action game. As Fats put it, 3-Cushion players will "play 50 points for a cigah."
 
I don't know if an average of 1 at 3C is better than an average of 10 at 14.1. They sound closer to me than they do to you.

pj
chgo
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Hard to say for sure, but it certainly sounded like an average of 1.0 in 3C is considerably more rare than an average of 10 balls per inning in 14.1.

KMRUNOUT
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I'm sure that's true. I just meant that an average of 10 at 14.1 isn't banger level.

pj
chgo
 
SmoothStroke said:
It's pretty tough to compare the games with numbers.
I am an above average 3C player with runs in the double digits, the runs mean nothing.

You can miss 10 shots in a row by an eyelash then run 7, 4, 4, 3, 5, 2, 2, 6, then miss 5 in a row. You can be left safe time after time and have to come up with and create incredible shots to score a point. Hangers and big balls are so easy to miss, by an eyelash. My high run ended on a hanger, a big ball in the corner. I missed it on the way in and on the way out, what we call an all around good shot, no point.

I thought who I was until I started playing the best. They were spotting me 50-24 and it was tough to win. I was unable to go shot for shot, their position was incredible, and their safety game left me having to make magical shots most of the time, they leave very few naturals. Every once in a while I would squeak out a win. I had a reality check. I was an above average player and realized as good as I was I was not that good. It was a humbling experience to say the least.

Most don't realize how well they come into balls to push a ball in a direction for position or a two way shot, position for them, a safe against you; the speed, it's more than scoring points or getting out in a few innings.
You better learn to play safe.

Billiard players are great people, always sharing info and technique with each other, beginners, and anyone who will listen. They would play for the ticket or gamble with me cheap, knowing I was willing to pay to learn and improve, they respected that and never tried to break my bank, always gentlemen, They treated me with respect and helped my game a lot.
It's difficult to make number comparisons but I will say this, a hanger in pocket billiards and a hanger in 3 cushion are worlds apart. Everyone should play 3 cushion, you will be the better for it.

You don't know what you don’t know until you know it
Sincerely:SS
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A fine post.

I took up 3c as one who had largely mastered cueing technique and had full knowledge about speed/ spin...

And I achieved a far higher level in the first 5 years in pool.
 
KMRUNOUT said:
No way. I spoke about this to Mazin Shooni, a top 3C player near me. He said there are only 6 players in the US that average 1.0 or better. I agree that many B players in pool may routinely run 10 balls. I think top pros average *well* above 10 balls per inning. Hard to say for sure, but it certainly sounded like an average of 1.0 in 3C is considerably more rare than an average of 10 balls per inning in 14.1. That being said, I play 3C about as often as I play 14.1, which is essentially never. Though ironically my high run in 3C is 4 or 5 (can't remember) but my high run in 14.1 is only 37 lol. So I may be full of crap...lol.

KMRUNOUT
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I think Mazin's count is a tad low although in this country there's not many. There's always unknowns and I would think he was saying there's only 6 that can compete in bigger tournaments..

I think the argument of what game is the hardest is futile. Bob Jewett gave some insight into this but it looks like for most it wasn't noticed.

I'll say what I think he was saying but with my own words. At the top level of play all cue games are likely on a par with each other. Pocketing a ball sitting near the hole is easy and it disguises what it takes to run a rack or multiple racks.

Its been said on this thread I ran X billiards and I've run X balls in 14:1. All these comments gave impressive numbers. It's also been discussed what's a good average in 14:1 vs 3C. 10 or 12 seems to be a decent number for 14:1 and 1 for 3C. That doesn't mean 14:1 is easier. Again and Yes its seemingly easier to pocket a ball than make a 3C score. I believe there's layups in both games. And in both games controlling the balls is the essence of success.

The only thing I could dream of to make the case that 3C is tougher than pool is to say at the top levels all 3 balls need to be controlled. But I don't believe anyone can control all 3 with absolute precision. Putting the balls in zones is more likely what happens, where in pool we want the CB within a inch at the pro level. That being said placing 3 balls in intended zones is also tough every time. It doesn't happen in either game every time..

Bottom line is I agree that an average of 1.0 in 3C is = to 10 in 14.1 That doesn't mean in any way that 3C is 10 times harder than 14:1 They're 2 different games. What's harder at a Professional level, Tennis or Ping Pong. Baseball or Cricket, Hockey or Soccer? Bass Fishing or Tuna Fishing

Nobody CONSISTENTLY runs 5 racks of 9 Ball and nobody CONSISTENTLY runs 10 billiards.

Lastly, maybe Mazin's number is accurate, but that for the US where there only a coupe thousand players. Take a look at Korea, Belgium, Sweden ... Mexico, Jaapan...
There's a bunch more 1.0 players. Thousands of the Millions of players from these countries.

Bottom line is Pocket games and Carom games are both extremely tough at a professional level. Only at a professional level can the difficulty be compared.
 
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