The truth about Mezz shafts

[KRJ]

It takes longer to season one piece shafts.
The magic number is about 4 years and up.
Thin plies reach equilibrium fasfer.

Well, we can't assume all shafts are seasoned ? I've been in a custom shop and he was pulling shaft wood right out of the box it was shipped in, and it arrived the day before.

So, it really depends on who it is. It's getting harder to say custom this or production that, because custom does not always equal better. Depends more on who made it, than how it was made. I'll take a Schon shaft over a custom guy who sells all his cues on Ebay

Thus, most folks have to remember, the price of shafts, especially in the LD market, are sold by dealers, not the maker. thus, that adds to the expense. They LD maker is NOT getting $200 per shaft for his work, as they sell to the wholesaler, who needs to make a profit for selling it as well.

 

[ivicafranic]

Left english isn't possible (or at least much harder) with Mezz shafts? That's what you're saying right?

gr. Dave

Sorry for missunderstanding:smile::smile::smile:I shouldn't be taken seriously sometimes:smile::smile:
But,just sometimesLOL
However,it would be funny and strange if something like this was true,doesn't it???
Guess you were pretty shocked while you were reading this:thumbup:

 

[Drop The Rock]

Left english isn't possible (or at least much harder) with Mezz shafts? That's what you're saying right?

gr. Dave

Yeah that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Now is that left in general or inside I wonder lol :thumbup:

No, I agreed with you that taper will affect it, but most of the energy lost is in the tip, thus most of the variance is due to tip hardness.

There is another thread going that talks about LD shafts and jumping. Basically everybody, including Royce from OB is saying that heavier end weight causes easier jumps. Seems to be pretty good evidence that the taper isn't doing a whole lot for the energy transfer, as compared to the tip and ferrule.

I'm not positive what you are implying with the light, medium and firm strokes. I use those terms for the speed of the cue, so yes, they absolutely react differently.

If you mean differences in grip pressure, no I don't believe the cueball reacts significantly differently because of how hard one grips the cue. The person may react differently (almost definitely) and cause a different reaction, but the cueball will react the same if all other things are equal.

Oh okay you and I are on the same page. In terms of how tight ones grip is I can agree that it shouldn't change anything from the standpoint of physics. Although achieving a higher cue speed is much easier for me with a loose and light grip. The noise the cue makes sounds much better to me as well.

 

[Double-Dave]

Leave this one to the scientists. A person may be better able to draw a cueball with a shaft suited to their hands (i.e. a broomstick is thick and clumsy), but the cueball doesn't care if it is hit with a piece of steel, rubber, a bullet, a whale penis or a cuestick. As long as the energy and friction are the same, it will provide the same result. The person may not be able to create the same result with all the above, but from a physics point of view, it doesn't matter.

Just one of the variables you're ignoring here is the mass of the object hitting the cueball.
Scientific test have proven beyond reasonable doubt (for me at least) that the heavier a shaft
is near the end that hits a cueball offset from the center the more the cueball will deflect.
So it's not just same contact point, same energy and same friction. More (important) variables
come into play.

As far as stroke goes, here is a test: Grab a house cue with no bumper. Hold the tip at a cueball where a draw shot should be hit. Tightly hold the cue level at that point and have a friend hit the butt of the cue with a hammer. You should see the cueball leave the tip with draw...and great draw, but you will be missing the 'golden element' of what most people say causes great draw...the follow through.

What this proves is that a tool can do things a human can't, no more.

The reason a human can't do the same is that a human arm cannot accelarate a cue upto a
certain speed in a fraction of an inch. We need a little more distance to create the speed.
Since we also cannot stop the cue in a fraction of an inch we need a follow through to slow
down the cue. What you have done is take an observation of a single effect (the follow through)
and try to prove it is not the cause of the whole result of the excersise (to have great draw).

I would also argue that in your experiment there will be a considerable follow through (and
broken/burned fingers but that's not important).

gr. Dave

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

Just one of the variables you're ignoring here is the mass of the object hitting the cueball.
Scientific test have proven beyond reasonable doubt (for me at least) that the heavier a shaft
is near the end that hits a cueball offset from the center the more the cueball will deflect.
So it's not just same contact point, same energy and same friction. More (important) variables
come into play.



What this proves is that a tool can do things a human can't, no more.

The reason a human can't do the same is that a human arm cannot accelarate a cue upto a
certain speed in a fraction of an inch. We need a little more distance to create the speed.
Since we also cannot stop the cue in a fraction of an inch we need a follow through to slow
down the cue. What you have done is take an observation of a single effect (the follow through)
and try to prove it is not the cause of the whole result of the excersise (to have great draw).

I would also argue that in your experiment there will be a considerable follow through (and
broken/burned fingers but that's not important).

gr. Dave

I'm tired of arguing this with people who don't understand.

Of course I am trying to prove that machines can do things we can't. I do that because that takes the human element out of it. It reduces bias. First you start with the best case scenario, then you figure out how to best accomplish that.

Science and engineering are about reducing variables. This is done because it is only after a base of understanding is accomplished that a more complex system can be analyzed.

But, hey, if you want to blindly believe all the lies that are perpetrated by people who don't understand anything, that is your prerogative.

best,

 

[Double-Dave]

I was not trying to argue, I was hoping to discuss. My comprehension skills in matters related to
both pool and physics are well above average, I can assure you. Mabye we can both learn something?

Leaving out variables is a valid process as is taking a variable to an extreme to better understand
it's function in the whole. But leaving out too many variables can lead to the wrong conclusion or
non-important conclusions as I think you will agree.

I guess what I am trying to say is, reducing a good draw shot to "hitting a spot on the cueball
with a certain energy, speed and friction" is taking out too many for the observation to hold merit.

Since, while the observation is correct it gets you no further in how to actually accomplish that.
You have simply defined what you are trying to achieve (get good draw) in a different way (hit exact
spot on cueball with exact speed).

The equivalent aiming system would be the "PIITH" system, which is a technically correct system
that nevertheless brings you no closer to achieving the desired result. We allready know what
we are trying to achieve, what we should focus on is how to achieve it.

gr. Dave

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Shafts

Personally I will stick to nature materials as much as possible used in the cues I buy and or make .
Most of all the wood I use has been air dying for at least one decade.
I have some nice shaft wood that i got 11 years ago that should be dry by now to turn .

I am not in a rush, like most production cue makers,
There is no reason to Horse my wood and don't have to bore and shove man made materials down the center of the wood or cover everything is fiber glass resin to try to keep the wood from warping.

The wood I have sat on for years is pretty much done moving .
But if I was going buy green wood and kilning it and turning it into a pool cue in 90 days ,
I would be using tons of man made products in the cue too, and one of my main concerns would be warping .
And I guess I would have no choice but to make shafts differently just to keep them straight .
Putting a carbon tube or graphite tube or dowel in the middle of a maple dowel seem sensible if production is more important then taking the time the wood needs to stabilize over time .
I could see where the cost of dealing with warped shafts could be costly and the best way would to make the maple shaft that was a living tree 6 months ago is to core it and stabilize the dowel with a graphite rod .


Then I would some sales gimmick to peddle them like new technology and better .

 

[Double-Dave]

It's a shame that so little people get to see a great (as in statiscally significant) number
of shafts of a certain brand of cues. Take the maker we are discussing in this thread for
example. They make 3 types of shafts that do not have a carbon tube.

The standard maple, wx700 and wx900. Of these I have seen at least 200.
They are without exception dead nuts straight when we get them in, like scary straight.

Off course, even Mezz shafts will on occasion warp but the return % is very small, max 2%, probably less.
Posts like mike's make me sad because a brand like Mezz does not deserve it, their
products are THAT well made and that includes their raw material selection and seasoning.

gr. Dave

 

[NervousNovice]

It's a shame that so little people get to see a great (as in statiscally significant) number
of shafts of a certain brand of cues. Take the maker we are discussing in this thread for
example. They make 3 types of shafts that do not have a carbon tube.

The standard maple, wx700 and wx900. Of these I have seen at least 200.
They are without exception dead nuts straight when we get them in, like scary straight.

Off course, even Mezz shafts will on occasion warp but the return % is very small, max 2%, probably less.
Posts like mike's make me sad because a brand like Mezz does not deserve it, their
products are THAT well made.

gr. Dave

This reminds me of their United joint. The first time I had one and screwed the shaft and butt together, it was such a snug fit that felt like screwing together a wood-to-wood joint. So snug that I thought I had cross-threaded at first. What an engineering precision.

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

This reminds me of their United joint. The first time I had one and screwed the shaft and butt together, it was such a snug fit that felt like screwing together a wood-to-wood joint. So snug that I thought I had cross-threaded at first. What an engineering precision.

Hmmm...I have a $65000 spindle cartridge right next to me. It is going on a machine which will need to drill holes in parts so accurately that the cutter is actually cooled in between holes.

One might say there is a lot of engineering in this 28lb part which will be put on a $4.5million machine.

If I ever encountered a thread that felt cross threaded because it was machined that tightly, I would be finding out where people screwed up.

Tight fitting threads are over constrained, improperly made, improperly implemented and, well, wrong.

Somehow the billiards industry think they are indicative of quality. I hate people.

 

[Double-Dave]

Hmmm...I have a $65000 spindle cartridge right next to me. It is going on a machine which will need to drill holes in parts so accurately that the cutter is actually cooled in between holes.

One might say there is a lot of engineering in this 28lb part which will be put on a $4.5million machine.

If I ever encountered a thread that felt cross threaded because it was machined that tightly, I would be finding out where people screwed up.

Tight fitting threads are over constrained, improperly made, improperly implemented and, well, wrong.

Somehow the billiards industry think they are indicative of quality. I hate people.

Cool story bro.

Having sold hundreds of United Joint cues and not once have one come
back with a defective joint pin or insert how exactly are they improperly made?
They still go together snugly after many years of use. Have you ever even had
one for a prolonged period of time to make such statements?

Mezz do what they do to make the cue play as good as they can make them
and this is one of the steps they take. Purely from an egineering viewpoint it
may be wrong to have the threads that tight but they are not trying to engineer
the cue that goes together perfectly from an engineering viewpoint. They try
to make it play as good as they can without sacrificing longevity.

An engineer might look at a thin walled (LD) ferrule and consider it terribly
inadequate for protecting the end of the shaft from splitting. That is correct
but still missing the point of having a thin walled ferrule.

gr. Dave <~~~ now arguing.

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

Cool story bro.

Having sold hundreds of United Joint cues and not once have one come
back with a defective joint pin or insert how exactly are they improperly made?
They still go together snugly after many years of use. Have you ever even had
one for a prolonged period of time to make such statements?

Mezz do what they do to make the cue play as good as they can make them
and this is one of the steps they take. Purely from an egineering viewpoint it
may be wrong to have the threads that tight but they are not trying to engineer
the cue that goes together perfectly from an engineering viewpoint. They try
to make it play as good as they can without sacrificing longevity.

An engineer might look at a thin walled (LD) ferrule and consider it terribly
inadequate for protecting the end of the shaft from splitting. That is correct
but still missing the point of having a thin walled ferrule.

gr. Dave <~~~ now arguing.

Why don't you go ahead and enlighten me as to how a tight fitting pin adds to how a cue plays.

Use math and physics. Show me tests where you have taken a shaft with a tight fitting pin and conducted all sorts of data and then show me how you made that fit a proper fit and show me how that data changed. Then show me why that means it is better.

Do this and you can argue against sound engineering practices. Until then you are arguing on bias and anecdotal evidence.

The only thing that a tight fitting pin is doing is adding radial forces in the shaft. This isn't a good thing.

 

[Kimmo H.]

As a machinist I am quite blown away about the United Joint. The thread is not that tight in my opinion that I'd ever think it as crossthreaded, it is made to feel snug, but not sticky. It doesnt have too much give in it, not nearly much as standard metric threads for example, but it is still easy to put together. I couldn't ever produce that precise threads on millions of cues, sure I could make a few as I work on a CNC lathe, but to make every single one of these exactly the same is incredible in my eyes.
I aint sure what are the actual benefits of this, if i had to guess i'd go with transfer of vibrations from shaft to butt No matter what, I love the United joint system, it feels great, lasts for an eternity and is incredibly well made. Good indicator of Mezz quality IMO, everything is made to perfection
I am not an expert or a professor of cue building, this is just my personal thoughts as a player and as a machinist on this matter

 

[Drop The Rock]

Why don't you go ahead and enlighten me as to how a tight fitting pin adds to how a cue plays.

Use math and physics. Show me tests where you have taken a shaft with a tight fitting pin and conducted all sorts of data and then show me how you made that fit a proper fit and show me how that data changed. Then show me why that means it is better.

Do this and you can argue against sound engineering practices. Until then you are arguing on bias and anecdotal evidence.

The only thing that a tight fitting pin is doing is adding radial forces in the shaft. This isn't a good thing.

^^Torque specifications are very important for structural integrity.

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

^^Torque specifications are very important for structural integrity.

Yup...what does that have to do with anything? Unless you are talking about how the limiting factor in the torque assembling a cue is the strength of the person doing the twisting and how much of that torque is wasted simply overcoming the thread resistance.

 

[Drop The Rock]

Yup...what does that have to do with anything? Unless you are talking about how the limiting factor in the torque assembling a cue is the strength of the person doing the twisting and how much of that torque is wasted simply overcoming the thread resistance.

Correcto. Tighter threading cues have a tendency to cause people to crank on em. I had the United Joint and it was almost too tight.

 

[NervousNovice]

Hmmm...I have a $65000 spindle cartridge right next to me. It is going on a machine which will need to drill holes in parts so accurately that the cutter is actually cooled in between holes.

One might say there is a lot of engineering in this 28lb part which will be put on a $4.5million machine.

If I ever encountered a thread that felt cross threaded because it was machined that tightly, I would be finding out where people screwed up.

Tight fitting threads are over constrained, improperly made, improperly implemented and, well, wrong.

Somehow the billiards industry think they are indicative of quality. I hate people.

1. Note that I never used the word "tight" in my post. I said "snug" which had a positive tone. When I said "I thought I had cross-threaded at first", it was because I was surprised by how snug and precise a stainless steel joint could be. Of course, after doing it a few times, I got used to the nice snug feeling and didn't really felt cross-threaded or the risk of it.
2. I used the phrase "engineering precision" which indicated a high quality of engineering. It doesn't necessarily mean the extra quality of hit during play. Nonetheless, precision is a nice thing to have.
3. Out of curiosity have you ever screwed together a United joint? And if yes, then you think it's a bad joint?

 

[Drop The Rock]

truth!

I'd like to remind everyone the point of this post. These shafts are expensive. Most LD shafts shafts are but Mezz takes the cake. That was my point. Not that they are shit products or anything like that, but that they are wallet busters.

 

[JoeyInCali]

How is that better than a SW screw ?
Or 3/8 10 modified ?
Or 5/18 18 with brass insert?
Does it offer better axial force ?

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Mezz cues and shafts

It's a shame that so little people get to see a great (as in statiscally significant) number
of shafts of a certain brand of cues. Take the maker we are discussing in this thread for
example. They make 3 types of shafts that do not have a carbon tube.

The standard maple, wx700 and wx900. Of these I have seen at least 200.
They are without exception dead nuts straight when we get them in, like scary straight.

Off course, even Mezz shafts will on occasion warp but the return % is very small, max 2%, probably less.
Posts like mike's make me sad because a brand like Mezz does not deserve it, their
products are THAT well made and that includes their raw material selection and seasoning.

gr. Dave

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