The truth about Mezz shafts

[Double-Dave]

Why don't you go ahead and enlighten me as to how a tight fitting pin adds to how a cue plays.

OK. If we go the exact opposit of that variable and make the pin extremely loose fitting the physical connection
between butt and shaft will be easily lost. The shaft will come loose with vibration and if you keep on playing
with a loose shaft you will damage the threads and shafts will continually fall on the ground.

Use math and physics. Show me tests where you have taken a shaft with a tight fitting pin and conducted all sorts of data and then show me how you made that fit a proper fit and show me how that data changed. Then show me why that means it is better.

Show me tests where you have proven the opposite. Twice. It has to be a published article in a
well known engineering magazine. You have to use emotion, feel and the color taupe.

Do this and you can argue against sound engineering practices. Until then you are arguing on bias and anecdotal evidence.

Strong words coming from someone who bases his opinions on hearsay.

The only thing that a tight fitting pin is doing is adding radial forces in the shaft. This isn't a good thing.

From an thread engineering standpoint, probably true. Still missing the point of why they choose
to make them like that though. Thread engineering was not their no1 priority, and given that
it has never failed in the hundreds of cue I have sold even things they do not make their no1
priority they get done pretty darn reliable.

I will again offer up the example of the thin walled ferrules since it is one of the easiest ones.
Make the ferrules thicker walled and they are stronger and much less likely to fail (Mezz ferrules
do fail occasionally) but you'd be missing the point of the thinner wall. It was not done because it
was better engineering.

gr. Dave

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

How is that better than a SW screw ?
Or 3/8 10 modified ?
Or 5/18 18 with brass insert?
Does it offer better axial force ?

Good job, sir!

Though, as we all know, from the list above the 5/16-18 is going to provide more axial force for a given applied torque, all other things being equal.

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

OK. If we go the exact opposit of that variable and make the pin extremely loose fitting the physical connection
between butt and shaft will be easily lost. The shaft will come loose with vibration and if you keep on playing
with a loose shaft you will damage the threads and shafts will continually fall on the ground.



Show me tests where you have proven the opposite. Twice. It has to be a published article in a
well known engineering magazine. You have to use emotion, feel and the color taupe.



Strong words coming from someone who bases his opinions on hearsay.



From an thread engineering standpoint, probably true. Still missing the point of why they choose
to make them like that though. Thread engineering was not their no1 priority, and given that
it has never failed in the hundreds of cue I have sold even things they do not make their no1
priority they get done pretty darn reliable.

I will again offer up the example of the thin walled ferrules since it is one of the easiest ones.
Make the ferrules thicker walled and they are stronger and much less likely to fail (Mezz ferrules
do fail occasionally) but you'd be missing the point of the thinner wall. It was not done because it
was better engineering.

gr. Dave

I've based everything I've said on the research and physical proofs I learned in university and use in my career.

Actually, when it comes to the ferrules, you are dead wrong. That was great engineering--they are thin and light while still protecting the wood. The goal of the LD ferrule was to reduce end mass. They recognized the goal and they accomplished.

That is engineering.

 

[Double-Dave]

I'd like to remind everyone the point of this post. These shafts are expensive. Most LD shafts shafts are but Mezz takes the cake. That was my point. Not that they are shit products or anything like that, but that they are wallet busters.

In the US, the WX700 and WX900 are cheaper then the 314-3 and Z-3. The Hybrid shafts are
more expensive then a Vantage so overall about the same.

In Europe though all Predator shafts (except the discontinued ones) are more expensive
then even the Hybrid shafts.

You won't get an argument from me that they cost a lot of money. But being built in a country where
the average wage of a skilled worker is much higher then China I consider them a better value.

The name of the post is "The truth about Mezz shafts" which I am happy to partake since I happen
to know quite a bit about the subject.

gr. Dave

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

By the by, I will never touch a Mezz product. When they released the Wavy joint, it was obvious that they would straight-up lie about a product. I cannot abide that kind of lack of integrity.

 

[Double-Dave]

Mezz EX Pro Shaft

The EX Pro shaft features the next generation Hybrid carbon core (HCC) and the EX front-end technology.balance between...

Mezz Hybrid Pro II Shaft

The Mezz Hybrid Pro II Shaft uses the combination of Hybrid Carbon Core (HCC) and front-end technology to achieve the uppermost performance of a low deflection shaft. The unique construction gives the player a genuine solid feel and superior performance of power and control.

Mezz Hybrid Alpha Shaft

Replacing the Mezz Hybrid Pro, Mezz introduces the new Hybrid "Alpha" shaft with a re-engineered front-end and core construction for greater accuracy...

Yes, Mezz also makes shafts with a Hybrid Carbon Core. I have had hundreds of those go thru my
hands aswell. Not sure what your point is with this post.

I was responding mostly to this part of your previous post:

But if I was going buy green wood and kilning it and turning it into a pool cue in 90 days ,
I would be using tons of man made products in the cue too, and one of my main concerns would be warping .
And I guess I would have no choice but to make shafts differently just to keep them straight .
Putting a carbon tube or graphite tube or dowel in the middle of a maple dowel seem sensible if production is more important then taking the time the wood needs to stabilize over time .
I could see where the cost of dealing with warped shafts could be costly and the best way would to make the maple shaft that was a living tree 6 months ago is to core it and stabilize the dowel with a graphite rod .

Then I would some sales gimmick to peddle them like new technology and better .

Which I at least attempted to rebute with my personal experience with hundreds of Mezz shafts
that do not have a carbon core.
So, let me ask you 2 questions:
1) How long does Mezz season their shafts?
2) Does Mezz season the shafts that will get a core shorter?

gr. Dave

 

[Double-Dave]

I've based everything I've said on the research and physical proofs I learned in university and use in my career.

Actually, when it comes to the ferrules, you are dead wrong. That was great engineering--they are thin and light while still protecting the wood. The goal of the LD ferrule was to reduce end mass. They recognized the goal and they accomplished.

That is engineering.

The simple fact is that LD ferrules (from Mezz aswell as other LD shaft manufacturers) have a
higher fail rate then non-LD ferrules. I would guesstimate by a factor of ~3.

So if you only look at that part of the equasion then you could easily argue that LD ferrules are
made less well then non-LD ferrules and anyone that would put such a ferrule on their product
is using sub-par materials/engineering. One would be correct in that argument but overlooking
all the benefits of the thin walled ferrule. Mezz weighed the pros and cons and considered the
higher fail rate an acceptable sacrifice for the reduced deflection. So what they did is look at the
whole picture and not just one part of it.

They look at the threads of their pins/inserts the same way, the whole picture.

By the by, I will never touch a Mezz product.

So you're basing your entire opinion of their products on things you read on the interwebs written
mostly by "people who don't understand". How very academic of you.

gr. Dave

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Thin walled ferrules

An engineer might look at a thin walled (LD) ferrule and consider it terribly
inadequate for protecting the end of the shaft from splitting. That is correct
but still missing the point of having a thin walled ferrule.

gr. Dave <~~~ now arguing.

Just a few days ago someone posted a picture of a new LD shaft that had been taken down to 12.5 mm

Out of the box the ferrule was cracked ............

There have been solid maple cues that the quality control inspector needed to be fired for missing defective ferrule..

But the ferrules breaking or cracking on certain LD shafts seems to happen more often.

Engineer's or rocket scientist. it doesn't take a very educated person to notice that some of these shafts are plagued with problems .

As of Mezz shafts or any other shaft that is on the market I am not interested in one.
If need be I can make my own shafts, and it really is not that hard to make one into a LD shaft.
And the shafts I make play nice and don't break and don't cost a car payment

There is not one production cue company that doesn't have some kind of gimmick in there advertisement /
Low Deflection, , more energy re engineered materials, Hybrid materials .

I am sorry I missed that Mezz does make real wood shafts , ( good for them, )
Stiill a shame to horse shaft wood ,in 90 days in one door and out the other .
I did read some are made with birch....

 

[ivicafranic]

As it was mentioned before LD shafts cost 11.99$ to be built.Ant these costs are with a tip and as we have concluded before the most of LD shafts and all Mezz shafts don't allow you to apply left english on the cueball so you need to play all shots with center or right english.
Regarding to this you can't use CJ Wiley's CTE:smile::smile::smile:

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

The simple fact is that LD ferrules (from Mezz aswell as other LD shaft manufacturers) have a
higher fail rate then non-LD ferrules. I would guesstimate by a factor of ~3.

So if you only look at that part of the equasion then you could easily argue that LD ferrules are
made less well then non-LD ferrules and anyone that would put such a ferrule on their product
is using sub-par materials/engineering. One would be correct in that argument but overlooking
all the benefits of the thin walled ferrule. Mezz weighed the pros and cons and considered the
higher fail rate an acceptable sacrifice for the reduced deflection. So what they did is look at the
whole picture and not just one part of it.

They look at the threads of their pins/inserts the same way, the whole picture.



So you're basing your entire opinion of their products on things you read on the interwebs written
mostly by "people who don't understand". How very academic of you.

gr. Dave

Don't put words in my mouth, ever. I said they accomplished their goal of LD. If the failure rate is acceptable to them and their customers, I have no problem with that.

No, my entire opinion of the company is based upon their lies (I'm referring to the Wavy joint brochures which touted unfounded claims). As such I have no desire to learn any more about their shafts.

I haven't said anything about Mezz pins and their poor engineering practices that I wouldn't apply to any over-constrained pin...I already said it to BS about the radial.

 

[Double-Dave]

Just a few days ago someone posted a picture of a new LD shaft that had been taken down to 12.5 mm

Out of the box the ferrule was cracked ............

That was an OB shaft, I at least am discussing Mezz shafts here.
Last I read that thread (at least a day ago) it was unclear of whether or
not that shafts was ordered from OB in 12.5 or taken down by the buyer.
I also noticed the shaft hat obviously been played (chalk on tip).

There have been solid maple cues that the quality control inspector needed to be fired for missing defective ferrule..

Not from Mezz.

But the ferrules breaking or cracking on certain LD shafts seems to happen more often.

No argument from me there, LD ferrules fail more often.

I am sorry I missed that Mezz does make real wood shafts , ( good for them, )
Stiill a shame to horse shaft wood ,in 90 days in one door and out the other .
I did read some are made with birch....

Where exactly did you get the info Mezz takes 90 days to get their shafts out the door?
How would you feel if Mezz wrote that about your shafts on their website?

They use Maple, Massaranduba and Ash as woods in their shafts. No Birch.

gr. Dave

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Season their wood

Yes, Mezz also makes shafts with a Hybrid Carbon Core. I have had hundreds of those go thru my
hands aswell. Not sure what your point is with this post.

I was responding mostly to this part of your previous post:



Which I at least attempted to rebute with my personal experience with hundreds of Mezz shafts
that do not have a carbon core.
So, let me ask you 2 questions:
1) How long does Mezz season their shafts?
2) Does Mezz season the shafts that will get a core shorter?

gr. Dave

I was told that all production cue companies are making the whole cue in 90 days
of the wood arriving on the property ..

Doesn't make any difference to me how Mezz cure's their shaft wood or any other production cue company.

I do not know of any production cue company that uses the best grades of wood in every cue.....

Why would anyone want to own a cue that is made with lower grade of wood then what I am playing with at this moment .

Sorry there is no production cues that interest me, mainly because they are put together extremely fast and the grade of lumber used.....

As of the cost, I can buy some of the best 3rd cut shaft wood ready for final sanding for 35.00 bucks, Micarta ferrules and a Kamui clear tip and SW style rings and 2 or 3 hrs labor and I can make a first class playing shaft for under a hundred bucks .

From everything I have heard about Mezz cues is good, heard they are a good playing cue for being a production cue .

Just not wild about man made material in pool cue shafts..
And personally 90 days to make a cue from green wood is not something I want .

 

[Double-Dave]

Don't put words in my mouth, ever. I said they accomplished their goal of LD. If the failure rate is acceptable to them and their customers, I have no problem with that.

I did not try to put words in your mouth, if my post came out looking that way I apologise for that.

I haven't said anything about Mezz pins and their poor engineering practices that I wouldn't apply to any over-constrained pin

You are welcome to your opinion, my arguments seem to do nothing but make you more angry at me.
However, I do appreciate you admitting you have not had any personal experience with any Mezz product.
Which to me at least greatly devalues your opinion about them and the way they are engineered.

gr. Dave

 

[ElCorazonFrio]

I did not try to put words in your mouth, if my post came out looking that way I apologise for that.



You are welcome to your opinion, my arguments seem to do nothing but make you more angry at me.
However, I do appreciate you admitting you have not had any personal experience with any Mezz product.
Which to me at least greatly devalues your opinion about them and the way they are engineered.

gr. Dave

Other than pointing out their lies about the wavy joint, I've said nothing about how Mezz, in particular, were engineered. I've argued about proper fits of screws and proper, accepted engineering practice when designing screws. A screw that has a lot of friction is, very simply, not made/engineered correctly.

You haven't made me angry, I simply bristled from my perception of my words being twisted.

I expect we'd get along swimmingly if we met in person. I am pretty curt when it comes to debating things I know.

Best,

 

[Double-Dave]

I was told that all production cue companies are making the whole cue in 90 days
of the wood arriving on the property ..

Doesn't make any difference to me how Mezz cure's their shaft wood or any other production cue company.

You were told wrong. Viking for example seasons their shaftwood for 5 years.
It may not matter to you how Mezz cure's their shaft wood but it certainly matters to Mezz
and the people buying Mezz cues.

As of the cost, I can buy some of the best 3rd cut shaft wood ready for final sanding for 35.00 bucks, Micarta ferrules and a Kamui clear tip and SW style rings and 2 or 3 hrs labor and I can make a first class playing shaft for under a hundred bucks .

So you have a good $50 invested in materials and you want to work on it for 2-3 hours and then
sell it for less then $100? Good for you but I won't work for $10 an hour before taxes. Neither do
the guys working at Mezz turning shafts.

And personally 90 days to make a cue from green wood is not something I want .

They are NOT doing that! Please stop saying they are.

 

[Double-Dave]

Other than pointing out their lies about the wavy joint, I've said nothing about how Mezz, in particular, were engineered. I've argued about proper fits of screws and proper, accepted engineering practice when designing screws. A screw that has a lot of friction is, very simply, not made/engineered correctly.

While you may not have meant to make it look specifically about Mezz you are posting all this
information in a thread about Mezz cues and the discussion started after someone mentioned
the Mezz united joint going together snug. Pretty tough for anyone to take it as anything other
then you talking about Mezz cues.

You haven't made me angry, I simply bristled from my perception of my words being twisted.

Good to know.

gr. Dave

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Whats wrong with you ?

You were told wrong. Viking for example seasons their shaftwood for 5 years.
It may not matter to you how Mezz cure's their shaft wood but it certainly matters to Mezz
and the people buying Mezz cues.



So you have a good $50 invested in materials and you want to work on it for 2-3 hours and then
sell it for less then $100? Good for you but I won't work for $10 an hour before taxes. Neither do
the guys working at Mezz turning shafts.



They are NOT doing that! Please stop saying they are.

Your a Mezz dealer good for you
Have you been through the Mezz factory ?
You said mezz doesn't use graphite or carbon tube or rods , but they do.
Then you twist my words or adds words to what I said that wanst true Because I never said it.
And that is about my 100 investment into making a shaft .
NOt ONCE DID I SAY I WOULD SALE ANY SHAFT I MADE FOR100 bucks .

Why would you lie and say I would sale a shaft for that when I didn't .

And I do not believe Mess sits on there Shaft wood for 5 years,

 

[Double-Dave]

Your a Mezz dealer good for you
Have you been through the Mezz factory ?

Thank you, it's not the easiest thing in the world to do. It requires having a bricks and mortar
location where you sell cues and have a good reputation. I am proud to be a Mezz dealer.

I have not visited their factory, Japan as a whole is not a country where I would not be likely to spend
my vacation. I am more of a sun/beach/ultra-all-in type of guy.

You said mezz doesn't use graphite or carbon tube or rods , but they do.

I never said that anywhere, ever.
What I did say was: "They make 3 types of shafts that do not have a carbon tube."
If you also include the break shafts they make more then 3 but I chose not to.

Then you twist my words or adds words to what I said that wanst true Because I never said it.
And that is about my 100 investment into making a shaft .
NOt ONCE DID I SAY I WOULD SALE ANY SHAFT I MADE FOR100 bucks .

Why would you lie and say I would sale a shaft for that when I didn't .

Ohhh, red font coloring! I did not state what you're saying I stated as fact but posed it as a question.
Hence the question mark at the end of my statement.

However, if someone says to me "I can make a maple plain jane for $150" and I then say: good,
I would like to buy one. Then they tell me:"Ohh no, I can't sell it for $150, I only said I can make it
for $150" does that make me a liar or them a bullshitter? There is not close to $150 worth of
material in a maple plain jane. Everyone also knows there is not nearly $100 bucks of materials
in a shaft, so you are adding in money for labor/profit.

And I do not believe Mess sits on there Shaft wood for 5 years,

I never said they did and it is your right to believe whatever you want. But do not come on a public forum and
tell made-up stories about them "to horse shaft wood ,in 90 days in one door and out the other ." because:

a) You don't have any first hand knowledge about how long they season their woods
b) What you're stating is clear defamation of Mezz and their products

 

[Double-Dave]

EDIT: double-post (no coffee yet).

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Mezz shafts

:

a) You don't have any first hand knowledge about how long they season their woods
b) What you're stating is clear defamation of Mezz and their products[/QUOTE]


If you don't mind Please post the phone number to the Mezz factory so I can get the first hand knowledge from them...
We can put a end to this and I would be more then happy to share the answers I get from them.
I asked you earlier Have you been to the Mezz cue factory, .....................

You didn't answer the question ???????

A phone call will clear all this up.