Why don't cuemakers do this? More to the point why don't we let them?

[jasonlaus]

Any cue builder with a 10 year waiting list means they are lazy or they are not efficient at their job. Why do I say this? Ginacue puts these guys to shame, then again Ernie is a genius and he is making 50 Anniversary cues and they are very elaborate in design and there are many inlays.

Guess what? All 50 will be done in the next year or two. Talk about efficiency. His cues are a lot better than most so-called great cue builders too.

If Ernie can do 50 in a year or two, 3 different models, what does that make the efficiency of others? Lazy and incompetent?

Those are basically production cues....they all look the same. It's a lot easier to set up once and turn out a bunch of parts/inlays/pockets, etc. used in multiple cues.
Jason

 

[Ken_4fun]

Agreed.

And if you don't know exactly how much it's going to be when you quote the customer, the quote them a range. There is nothing wrong with a quote of "$2200-$2600, depending on variables A, B and C." If the customer doesn't want to accept that, then that's fine. It would be pretty unreasonable not to, though.

How reasonable would it be if it was quoted at $1600 and delivery of 5 years and requiring a 25% deposit immediately?

Then, after 6 years, it hasn't even been started, and he wants to change the price of the cue, by more than 50%?

I got probably 10-20 Private Messages from folks that he had done the same thing to (most just bellied up to the bar and paid it).....yep, that's a pretty classy guy there...

That's why I keep bringing it up.

Ken

 

[JCIN]

Any cue builder with a 10 year waiting list means they are lazy or they are not efficient at their job. Why do I say this? Ginacue puts these guys to shame, then again Ernie is a genius and he is making 50 Anniversary cues and they are very elaborate in design and there are many inlays.

Guess what? All 50 will be done in the next year or two. Talk about efficiency. His cues are a lot better than most so-called great cue builders too.

If Ernie can do 50 in a year or two, 3 different models, what does that make the efficiency of others? Lazy and incompetent?

Ernie is a one off. He has a million dollar shop designed from the ground up to produce cues efficiently. He made it that way before he ever started back building cues.

Its like saying why can't everyone play like Efren? I mean if one guy does it everyone else should too right?

 

[JCIN]

Nice marketing idea for sure ... but is there a market for fancy eye candy cues?

I'm sure there is, however in financial times like we are living, and have been living in since 2008, I think it has to be a shrinking market.

I carry a Spyderco Delica 4 ... Think I paid $120 - $130 dollars for it about 5 years ago. It cuts everything, feels great in my hand and all that. I carry it every day and would not think of buying another knife as long as this one remains solid.

I think I represent the main stream market in pocket knives, especially in todays world ... Production knives by the Big companies can be bought for $200.00 or less and the quality is off the charts.

Now If you want a prettier more exclusive knife you can spend thousands more and buy one, but you would be part of a skinny market.

I think this same environment holds true for Custom Cue making.

Production Companies are making some very good playing cues these days .. My favorite player is a Predator that sold for $338 dollars - and I own considerably more expensive customs that look a lot cooler, but as far as playability, not so much.

If I were a high end cue maker I would attempt to adjust to the current market by expanding my product line.

Use that Big Name Recognition and offer a modest plain jane that would hit and play like the great cues you make that are so sought after...

Market your wonderful joint. Forget about making shafts, simply offer the buyer a choice of any blank he wants you to fit to his cue.

I'm talking Sneaky's and Merry Widows only adorned by your famous name.

Sell it for under $800.00 and see if you can sell 100 of them for every one of the high dollar eye candy jobs.

Just a thought.

Not one word of that had anything at all to do with the point of this thread.

I am glad you like production knives and cues. I do too. Neither have a thing to do with what I'm talking about though.

 

[JCIN]

Go to the Cue Collectors Show.
Many fine cuemakers exhibit and it is open to the public on Saturday.

Go to Ken Kerners cue show.

Go to the Midwest Cue show.

Bill S.

I am familiar. None of the above do anything different than has been done in the past. Its the same guys trading the same cues.

 

[DAVE_M]

Not one word of that had anything at all to do with the point of this thread.

I am glad you like production knives and cues. I do too. Neither have a thing to do with what I'm talking about though.

Some people just don't get it.

I'm curious; how many people go to SBE, to look at the vendor booths? How many people go for the matches being played? How many go for the action?

It would be neat to see a Cue Show, similar to BLADE, SHOT, & The Gathering, but the odds of that happening are very slim. What we need to do, is convince the Cue Makers to get off their butts and get out there.

I have only been to one cuemakers shop/home, of which I am grateful for, but I will have to be honest... The guy thought he was a supreme being and that I didn't know jack. I decided not to order anything from him and just thanked him for allowing me to visit. I don't want to use that experience to judge ALL cuemakers, but in my other experiences through phone calls and emails, it's been similar.

 

[Sealegs50]

To your point, at one of the earliest SBEs, Barry Szamboti, Bill Schick, Richard Black, et al., hosted booths and had cues for sale. Those were the days before their waiting lists either got too long or ceased to exist. At a recent SBE, Pete Tonkin showed up with cues to sell. While not on your original list, he probably should be.

My question is why a cuemaker should travel then fund and staff a booth to sell a few cues if their waiting lists are already so long that they would not consider taking additional orders. The lists for the guys you mentioned are not 4 years. I see a potential benefit for collectors and flippers, but little benefit for the cuemakers or for those of us who just want one of these cues at a reasonable price for playing pool.

I believe someone tried to do exactly what you suggested for a cue show a couple of years ago. He engaged one of the cuemakers on your list to build 5 cues for a show. IIRC, the cuemaker did not travel to the show and never built the cues. Some of these guys are a hard to count on.

This seems more like a discussion for Ask The Cuemaker. The rest of us are not holding your idea back. I am pretty sure that if you build it, they will come.

Many of us have our pet peeves, this is mine. I have a hard time understanding why cuemakers work so hard making these beautiful cues just to have them sold for quick profit or sit in cases and be taken out once in a while to be pictured with 100+ other cues on a pool table. Making cues for a cue show serves the collector/flipper crowd. But I would have thought that having people play with their cues would be the ultimate compliment for their skills. Silly me.

 

[cueman]

Its going to take me a minute to get to the point but stick with me here....

Over the past few years I have gotten into custom knives. The parallels between the custom knife market and the custom cue market are many:

-They both are made up of mostly one man shops and a few larger ones.

-Both have tiers of makers with the top guys being almost impossible to get work from directly and when one does buy direct from a top maker they can usually flip for a profit immediately if they want.

-The huge difference between the two is that the top knifemakers seem to be much more active in the community both online and at shows.

The reason I bring this all up is that I have talked to a few cuemakers and asked why no one in cues does what the knife guys do in regards to doing one or two trade shows/expos a year. With knife makers even guys who have closed books and long wait lists will go to a show and bring a small number of knives to sell at the show.

Usually these are sold by raffle. You go to the makers table and there are three or four knives there with his price on them. Not the secondary market price but his direct price which almost always lower. You pick the knife you like and fill out a ticket. When its time a winner is pulled and gets to buy the knife. They also usually do a fancy knife and have it as an open bid. Highest bidder gets the knife.

The effect this has is huge. It generates buzz and excitement for the events. People know that no matter how small the chance they have a shot to get something they otherwise could not. Also there is the flipper aspect where if they want they can turn a win into cash. This buzz and excitement is also good for the makers who are not at the very top because they have more people with money in their pockets in the room. Not everyone is going to get a holy grail item but they are in the room with money in their pocket.

This is good for the event promoter because they can announce who is going to be there and that there will be a chance to get product from them. The makers post pics of the work they will be bringing sometimes to generate more interest. People get into it.

Its good for the cuemakers because they get to go to a couple events a year and make enough money to cover the trip and make a little cash over a weekend. It motivates them to attend events and participate in the community. They can also take chances by building things outside their normal work to try things. Its a win win situation for all.

Now there are only a handful of cue makers this would apply to in the pool world but I cant help but think how awesome the next Expo would be if South West, Searing, Showman, Tascarella, Hercek, Haley, Sugartree, Bluegrass and Szamboti announced they would have two to five cues each available at the show via whatever means they choose to sell them. I think the buzz would be huge.

You would have the makers at the show to talk to. They can connect with people without the pressure of having to come out of pocket to cover the expenses of the trip. Hell you could put three or four in a booth and let them spend a few hours a day in it of they want. The main point is to get the elite makers back in the wider community outside of just the hard core collector.

Now why I think this probably will not happen: Lists. Everyone is a prisoner to their list. Because they think people on the list will freak out most makers I bring this up to say it would never fly. I think thats terrible. If having a guy make and sell a few cues a year off the books is the cost of getting them out in the community sharing their knowledge and building excitement I think its ridiculous not to do it. This idea that a craftsman is an indentured servant to his list is crazy and I have seen it nowhere else outside of pool.

Now I know some will post cuemaker horror stories. I know they happen.But I would still rather have the makers, their knowledge and experience out there in the community without having to keep a low profile lest they set off someone on a list. A benefit to people on those lists could very well be that making a face to face to connection with a maker could smooth out the process.

So I just wanted to see what people think about the idea of makers coming to shows with a few off the books cues if thats what it takes to get them out and involved.

I thought the Super Billiards Expo, the regional shows and maybe the ICCS show would be considered doing a couple of shows?

 

[Hidy Ho]

I might add, "Once a cue has been quoted, that is the price of the cue when it is completed." Holding a cue "hostage" for more money than quoted is a no-no.

Ken

You whine worse than any cheap Thai whores (or ladyboys) I've seen in Bangkok ...

It's very hard to have empathy toward you and your past situation based on how you carry on ...

 

[JCIN]

I thought the Super Billiards Expo, the regional shows and maybe the ICCS show would be considered doing a couple of shows?

Did you even read my original post?

 

[JCIN]

To your point, at one of the earliest SBEs, Barry Szamboti, Bill Schick, Richard Black, et al., hosted booths and had cues for sale. Those were the days before their waiting lists either got too long or ceased to exist. At a recent SBE, Pete Tonkin showed up with cues to sell. While not on your original list, he probably should be.

My question is why a cuemaker should travel then fund and staff a booth to sell a few cues if their waiting lists are already so long that they would not consider taking additional orders. The lists for the guys you mentioned are not 4 years. I see a potential benefit for collectors and flippers, but little benefit for the cuemakers or for those of us who just want one of these cues at a reasonable price for playing pool.

I believe someone tried to do exactly what you suggested for a cue show a couple of years ago. He engaged one of the cuemakers on your list to build 5 cues for a show. IIRC, the cuemaker did not travel to the show and never built the cues. Some of these guys are a hard to count on.

This seems more like a discussion for Ask The Cuemaker. The rest of us are not holding your idea back. I am pretty sure that if you build it, they will come.

Many of us have our pet peeves, this is mine. I have a hard time understanding why cuemakers work so hard making these beautiful cues just to have them sold for quick profit or sit in cases and be taken out once in a while to be pictured with 100+ other cues on a pool table. Making cues for a cue show serves the collector/flipper crowd. But I would have thought that having people play with their cues would be the ultimate compliment for their skills. Silly me.

Why is it some want to wax poetic about their idea of what a cuemaker should do/be in this thread? I really don't get it.

 

[DAVE_M]

Hey Justin, I can't believe I didn't think of this before, but it's a real eye opener.

When was the last time you heard of custom cue makers collaborating with production cue makers? Other than Predator having "special edition" cues made by custom makers, I can't think of any time that a custom cue maker collaborated with a production maker.

Knife makers strive to get to that point in their career, where they have finally made it and have a collaboration knife out there. Look at Rick Hinderer and KAI (Kershaw & Zero Tolerance), Liong Mah and CRKT, and even Tuff Knives & Boker! We always say it in the knife community, buying a collaboration only makes me want a full custom.

How cool would it be, to be able to purchase an affordable Titlist, 26-1/2, or 360? It would only make the real deal that much more valuable.

 

[RiverCity]

Hey Justin, I can't believe I didn't think of this before, but it's a real eye opener.

When was the last time you heard of custom cue makers collaborating with production cue makers? Other than Predator having "special edition" cues made by custom makers, I can't think of any time that a custom cue maker collaborated with a production maker.

Knife makers strive to get to that point in their career, where they have finally made it and have a collaboration knife out there. Look at Rick Hinderer and KAI (Kershaw & Zero Tolerance), Liong Mah and CRKT, and even Tuff Knives & Boker! We always say it in the knife community, buying a collaboration only makes me want a full custom.

How cool would it be, to be able to purchase an affordable Titlist, 26-1/2, or 360? It would only make the real deal that much more valuable.

John Guffy had a production line through Viking.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Hey Justin, I can't believe I didn't think of this before, but it's a real eye opener.

When was the last time you heard of custom cue makers collaborating with production cue makers? Other than Predator having "special edition" cues made by custom makers, I can't think of any time that a custom cue maker collaborated with a production maker.

Knife makers strive to get to that point in their career, where they have finally made it and have a collaboration knife out there. Look at Rick Hinderer and KAI (Kershaw & Zero Tolerance), Liong Mah and CRKT, and even Tuff Knives & Boker! We always say it in the knife community, buying a collaboration only makes me want a full custom.

How cool would it be, to be able to purchase an affordable Titlist, 26-1/2, or 360? It would only make the real deal that much more valuable.

Joss did with a few makers ( Mcworter, Samsara, Chuddy among them ).

 

[DAVE_M]

John Guffy had a production line through Viking.

Joss did with a few makers ( Mcworter, Samsara, Chuddy among them ).

I'll have to research those cues!

Personally, I think a production Southwest would be neat.

I think it goes back to what some of us were saying earlier in the thread; cue makers are hermits and don't usually give away trade secrets like knife makers do.

 

[macguy]

Hey Justin, I can't believe I didn't think of this before, but it's a real eye opener.

When was the last time you heard of custom cue makers collaborating with production cue makers? Other than Predator having "special edition" cues made by custom makers, I can't think of any time that a custom cue maker collaborated with a production maker.

Knife makers strive to get to that point in their career, where they have finally made it and have a collaboration knife out there. Look at Rick Hinderer and KAI (Kershaw & Zero Tolerance), Liong Mah and CRKT, and even Tuff Knives & Boker! We always say it in the knife community, buying a collaboration only makes me want a full custom.

How cool would it be, to be able to purchase an affordable Titlist, 26-1/2, or 360? It would only make the real deal that much more valuable.

Aren't many of those knives made in places like China? I have quite a few knives mostly made overseas but I like them regardless.

 

[DAVE_M]

Aren't many of those knives made in places like China? I have quite a few knives mostly made overseas but I like them regardless.

All Zero Tolerance knives are made in the USA. Some, but not all, Kershaw knives are made in the USA (otherwise made in China). CRKT and Boker are made in multiple countries: China, Taiwan, & Germany are some that I can remember.

Also, being made in China is not a problem. Reate Knives are made in China and are very high quality, on par with Mid-Tech's and even some custom knives.

Most Chinese knives, made by reputable companies, are well made, but use low end materials. The same can be done with pool cues, however, most low end pool cues have poor construction.

 

[macguy]

All Zero Tolerance knives are made in the USA. Some, but not all, Kershaw knives are made in the USA (otherwise made in China). CRKT and Boker are made in multiple countries: China, Taiwan, & Germany are some that I can remember.

Also, being made in China is not a problem. Reate Knives are made in China and are very high quality, on par with Mid-Tech's and even some custom knives.

Most Chinese knives, made by reputable companies, are well made, but use low end materials. The same can be done with pool cues, however, most low end pool cues have poor construction.

It seems like it is s slippery slope once the quality goes down. What it the excuse, "Yes, we make good knives and crap for the crap market".

I have a Fox knife made in China that is marked Italy. It is of course a knock off. It cost $12.00 and free shipping direct from China. I also have a real Fox knife of the same model and It is hard to tell them apart when you look at them.

There are big differences, if you take out any screw it will strip when you put it back, they are not tapped just self threaded and in a short time will fall out anyway.

The whole China thing when it comes to knives I think may have wrecked the market. Unless you are an expert you have to be afraid of buying anything especially if the price is too low.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

Most Chinese knives, made by reputable companies, are well made, but use low end materials.

Who would want a knife made with low-grade steel??? At least a crappy cue will still poke a ball in a hole. A knife that won't take and hold a good edge is less than useless.

 

[DAVE_M]

It seems like it is s slippery slope once the quality goes down. What it the excuse, "Yes, we make good knives and crap for the crap market".

I have a Fox knife made in China that is marked Italy. It is of course a knock off. It cost $12.00 and free shipping direct from China. I also have a real Fox knife of the same model and It is hard to tell them apart when you look at them.

There are big differences, if you take out any screw it will strip when you put it back, they are not tapped just self threaded and in a short time will fall out anyway.

The whole China thing when it comes to knives I think may have wrecked the market. Unless you are an expert you have to be afraid of buying anything especially if the price is too low.

Buy from reputable manufacturers and reputable dealers, and you will have nothing to worry about. The same goes for cues. There are plenty of fake cues out there these days.

BTW, any knockoff for $12 is going to be crap. Fox Knives are made in Italy, Fox knockoffs are not. There are knockoffs and clones everywhere. I carry an Emerson CQC-8 everywhere, and it came from a reputable authorized Emerson dealer. I went to a local gun show a few months back and found a pretty good clone of a CQC-8, selling for $200+, and I walked away. There are cheap knockoffs and there are good knockoffs, but it's up to the consumer to know which is which and they decided if they want to buy a fake or not.

Who would want a knife made with low-grade steel??? At least a crappy cue will still poke a ball in a hole. A knife that won't take and hold a good edge is less than useless.

A crappy cue will still poke a ball in a hole... and a crappy knife will still cut. So, what's your point?

IMO, modern knives use steel that is better than the steel of yesteryear. 440A, 440C, & AUS-8 was once a "super steel." Now, those steels are considered low grade. I've put a hair popping edge on my friend's 8cr13mov steel bladed Kershaw. He loves it and still says it's sharp. It's all about perception. I've used a Griptilian with 154cm for years, and decided I don't need a better steel, so I carry an Emerson with 154cm. The overall quality is better, but the steel is still the same.