Tapering. CNC vs lathe...

I know a big Zero about CnC but would first take Dale's advice and talk to Todd.

I am currently selling my second lathe and will be buying a Taper Shaper, but that is neither here nor there.

Ultra Skin Tom has, or had one of Todd's Lathe CnC conversions and posted several UTube videos of it in action.

If I hadn't sold my second lathe, that is pretty much what it would have ended up being is
one of Todd's conversions.

From what I understand and have seen of it, I don't think that it would take much work to switch it back and forth between a normal working lathe and a CnC for tapering.

I can't remember now but have spoken to Todd on this re price and I do know that the end result didn't scare me.

Best of both Worlds and you have one lathe that can be dedicated to both types of work.
 
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Thomas Wayne said:


Believe me, I'm not holding out on you just to be stubborn. It would be extremely easy to get me to admit ALL advantages that manual tapering machines have over CNC... if there were any. As a category, of course. In any specific case, such as your need to run a 50 amp rotary phase converter in order to power your machine, there may very well be an advantage... for you. But in general practice (rather than unusual cases), manual tapering machine do not offer any advantages over CNC.

I didn't address your one point, that you can turn your manual machine off when you are done using it, but I do exactly that when I am done using mine too. It takes but a couple minutes to boot up, and I always plan far enough ahead that I need not twiddle my thumbs while it's doing so. When I'm done cutting I just hit the main power block and it turns off the entire machine instantly with one switch - which is why I still run it using a "cold-boot" friendly IBM XT.

This CNC machine - which I consider representative of any average CNC tapering machine - can turn pretty much anything I want with extreme ease. I can run any taper, cut round stock of any needed length and/or diameter, turn ferrules down from ivory blocks, trim joint rings, flush-cut inlays... and all that it requires to change from butts to shafts to ferrules to core stock is loading the appropriate program. No need to change out taper bars, or lock on a fixed diameter, or manually reset for the next pass, or... From cold boot to ready to cut anything takes but a few moments.

So, Chris, if you want to keep listing the advantages that typical manual tapering machines have over typical CNC turning machines, I will be happy to explain as clearly as I can why you are mistaken. In the very unlikely event you describe an operation that actually IS better done on a manual machine I will gladly admit you are right. So far, however, you have not managed to meet that criteria.

TW
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Let me list them one last time and we can quit beating this dead horse.
My manual rapid return rate is over 12 inches per second.
It is instant start.
It turns itself off automatically saving electricity over the way most people run their CNC machines.
There is no computer programming to do.
There is no computer, controllers to burn out.
The learning curve is much easier.
The cost is usually less.
I know we are only talking about tapering here, but I can run hogging passes with my manual inlay machine that would equal hundreds of inches per minute.

Can you not admit that anyone of those things are even a slight advantage over CNC?
 
scdiveteam said:
[...]
We should all learn to share info on this forum in the form of opinions between peers. Disagreements are very healthy but should be respectful. If we all follow the rules, harmony will prevail. Everyone wins.

[...]
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OMG! This? From you?

Here's a FINE example of how "very healthy" and "respectful" you behave when people disagree with you:

http://new.jimboarmy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8911&start=255

The third post from the top is very typical of your reaction when someone finds fault with one of your silly claims, in this case your ridiculous "exploding Schuler A-joints" myth. The LONG list of people you have deeply insulted - with rampant profanity, homophobic slurs, offensive images, etc. - simply because they dared to disagree with you, is legendary.

TW

 
scdiveteam said:
Chris,

Can you cut ebony parts and pockets faster than 20 ipm on your supermax with a .0313 mill. Just Curious.
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I do not use my Super Max for any cue work, and do not have a high speed head on it. But I can cut way more than 20 inches per minute in ebony in shallow passes with my manual inlay machine.
Click to expand...
 
Thomas Wayne said:


OMG! This? From you?

Here's a FINE example of how "very healthy" and "respectful" you behave when people disagree with you:

http://new.jimboarmy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8911&start=255

The third post from the top is very typical of your reaction when someone finds fault with one of your silly claims, in this case your ridiculous "exploding Schuler A-joints" myth. The LONG list of people you have deeply insulted - with rampant profanity, homophobic slurs, offensive images, etc. - simply because they dared to disagree with you, is legendary.

TW
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AZ Billiards has forum rules, JA is wide open without rules. I don't wish to point out your posts that are much worse. Not here at least because I respect AZ too much.

You are really something.

You have a lot to share TW, why must you attack people all the time. State your point and leave it alone. Every thing is not always absolute black or white. Expertise is in the gray areas.

Rick
 
One point that I think deserves mentioning is quality of cnc in relation to dollars spent. I work on cnc's at work every day and would love to have a cnc lathe for home but to buy a cnc that is as rigid as one of my manual lathes I couldn't afford. There is a big difference between a industrial grade cnc machine tool and a hobby cnc made from aluminum extrusions. So my point as it relates to this discussion is that a manual metal lathe setup to taper cues may not offer as much flexibility and be as efficient but the accuracy and quality of cut can be superior than what a hobby grade cnc lathe made from aluminum can produce. Regardless of what is moving the slides the quality of cut is still dependent on the quality of the base machine and spindle. So which is better a cheap cnc or a manual setup based on a industrial grade machine tool as it relates to the quality of the final product?
 
Canadian cue said:
One point that I think deserves mentioning is quality of cnc in relation to dollars spent. I work on cnc's at work every day and would love to have a cnc lathe for home but to buy a cnc that is as rigid as one of my manual lathes I couldn't afford. There is a big difference between a industrial grade cnc machine tool and a hobby cnc made from aluminum extrusions. So my point as it relates to this discussion is that a manual metal lathe setup to taper cues may not offer as much flexibility and be as efficient but the accuracy and quality of cut can be superior than what a hobby grade cnc lathe made from aluminum can produce. Regardless of what is moving the slides the quality of cut is still dependent on the quality of the base machine and spindle. So which is better a cheap cnc or a manual setup based on a industrial grade machine tool as it relates to the quality of the final product?
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Looking at those Taig lathes, I wonder how accurate can the carriage/saddle/gibs be ? Never mind their rigidity and vibration resistance .
I visited a great cue maker's shop and saw his 12 by 36 metal lathe converted to a cnc taperer. The beast was the nuts . It did not take him that long to set-up a tapering job at all.
For what is available there now, I'll nominate the Taper Shaper as the best manual tapering set-up. It will do the job for most hobbyists .
If I had to make a cnc tapering machine, I'd want the router/spindle on top of the turning wood. Not on the side or under.
I have a manual tapering machine that has it that way and I love it .
 
cueman said:
Let me list them one last time and we can quit beating this dead horse.
My manual rapid return rate is over 12 inches per second.
It is instant start.
It turns itself off automatically saving electricity over the way most people run their CNC machines.
There is no computer programming to do.
There is no computer, controllers to burn out.
The learning curve is much easier.
The cost is usually less.
I know we are only talking about tapering here, but I can run hogging passes with my manual inlay machine that would equal hundreds of inches per minute.

Can you not admit that anyone of those things are even a slight advantage over CNC?
Click to expand...

Highlighted in RED (above) are the only advantages I would concede; my 25-year-old CNC tapering machine can do everything else on that short list, and/or does not have those issues (for example, after 25 years of continuous service I would say "controller burnout" is an imaginary issue). I'm confused by the last point, about your "hogging passes" on your "manual inlay machine", as I thought we were just talking about tapering lathes in this thread.

BUT, and this is not a small point, I have looked at many new cars over the years when choosing our next vehicle in a row, and inevitably each one enjoys some "advantage(s)" over the others, on one level or another. So in the end the decision of what to buy comes down to which make/model is the best at meeting ALL our vehicle needs. Obviously, if it is a work truck for me those needs will be different from my wife's "daily driver" needs. So there is no "perfect" vehicle solution even within my own household - let alone the entire world. The same is true of meeting one's tapering needs.

In the final analysis, my CNC turning machine is the most practical for my needs. It can turn ANYTHING to exact specs, from tapers to rounds to stairway spindles, and has continued to do so flawlessly for going on 3 decades. Additionally:

>It takes up less than 16 square feet of shop space.
>It can cut an unlimited number of incremental passes without any manual input - a single program that ran for a year without input would be no problem.
>It can vary its feed speed, spindle speed, and turning rpm countless times, automatically, within any program to obtain the optimum surface finish.
>Unlimited variations of tapers, round stock, short pieces, long pieces, etc can all be done without ANY manual change over required.
>Rough hogging from square stock right down to a baby-but-smooth surface finish can be accomplished on a piece of stock IN A SINGLE OPERATION, with no additional manual input.

There are many, MANY other advantages CNC has over manual tapering, but I think I've made my point. Not having to wait for "boot up", not having to write programs, not having to learn to program... those are all "nice" things (I guess). But unless you can show me a manual machine that will do all the things I listed above I'm afraid I can't see the point in taking up shop space for a machine I simply don't need.

So the OP wanted input regarding what ONE machine would serve him best for tapering. My opinion is that CNC is the clear choice, but if "instant start" and not having to learn new things - like the simplest form of programming there is - are more important to him then clearly he should go with a manual machine.

Otherwise, if he wants an incredibly versatile turning station that will make any round thing he needs (ANY round thing), then he should consider CNC. There is nothing - NOTHING - a manual machine can produce that cannot very easily be made with CNC, but there are many operations CNC can execute that would require a warehouse full of taper bars and excess set-up time with a manual machine. Whatever advantages you feel manual machining may have over CNC cannot be important enough to overcome that simple fact (in my opinion).

TW

 
What I really missed with my now defunct cnc tapering machine was being able to hog out stepped coring dowels and handles with bottom tenon.

In one pass, I could go to the bottom of the coring dowel, turn it smaller for yay many inches, then go up for the step tenon down to 10" from the top, then go down again for the forearm hole size. To do that manually is a lot of work.
I also made coring dowels for handles where the final size was 7/8 but the top two being around .920".
I can only imagine how much better the cnc taperer be if you have tapered holes. You can cnc the matching taper.
You could also hog out handles with tenons factored in the program.
Heck, you can even write the codes and keep the top 3 inches straight so it would be simple to chuck it up when doing the A-joint work.
 
scdiveteam said:
AZ Billiards has forum rules, JA is wide open without rules. I don't wish to point out your posts that are much worse. [...]
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I dare you, Rick. QUOTE any post I've made ANYWHERE that is "much worse" than that of yours I linked above. No one - NO ONE - in cuemaking has been more disrespectful to others than you have, so for you to now pretend to be so pious and civil demands calling out.

Many of the members here are also members (and lurkers) on the other forum. Take Jamie ("Worminator"), for example. He started a thread on the other forum regarding Ginacue's 50th Anniversary offering, and it didn't agree with your opinion. So you laid into him with your usual nasty attacks - which can be seen here, in the 5th post from the top:

http://new.jimboarmy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9153&p=112048&hilit=Gina#p112048

AZB rules prohibit the blatant use of profanity, so some editing is in order; but because he dared to disagree with you, in your response you called Jamie the following:

> "a*****e"

> "you f*****g malcontented interloper"

> "Shut the f**k up Wormie you unearned greatness poster child"

> "Your remarks though stupid and meaningless [...] you do this sh*t all the time trying to act like a big shot. Big sh*it is more like it."

> "you sorry ass loser [...] shut your trap. You are an embarrassment and should be ashamed of your self."

> "You always act like a crooked used car salesman"

> "Try to learn some business ethics, stupid"

So help me out here, RIck. Explain how you can instruct members here that "Disagreements are very healthy but should be respectful." when you do not actually adhere to those principles yourself. Here you offer such lofty ideals so that "harmony will prevail", but over there you are the absolute worst when it comes to public disrespect toward others.

And you like to call me "Twoface". Maybe you should leave the etiquette instruction to Miss Manners.

TW

 
And those are just quotes to/about Jamie.

lest we not forget the SLEW of things he's had to say about Fred, one of JA's and AZ's more well-known, well-liked, and respected members.
 
Brickcues said:
Wow, my CNC does the final pass on shafts in about 60 seconds and just as smooth as my table saw was.
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I've seen some pictures of woods turned on table saw taperer. They looked nasty. Not all saw taperers are as hot as SW's.
 
JoeyInCali said:
I've seen some pictures of woods turned on table saw taperer. They looked nasty. Not all saw taperers are as hot as SW's.
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I was fortunate enough to spend time with Jerry, both in his shop and also water-skiing together on Lake Mead. There were/are some subtle aspects about his machines that he shared with only a few cuemakers, and they are not found in any of the contemporary knock-offs I've seen. Those aspects are what make his setups cut so well.

TW

 
Thomas Wayne said:


I dare you, Rick. QUOTE any post I've made ANYWHERE that is "much worse" than that of yours I linked above. No one - NO ONE - in cuemaking has been more disrespectful to others than you have, so for you to now pretend to be so pious and civil demands calling out.

Many of the members here are also members (and lurkers) on the other forum. Take Jamie ("Worminator"), for example. He started a thread on the other forum regarding Ginacue's 50th Anniversary offering, and it didn't agree with your opinion. So you laid into him with your usual nasty attacks - which can be seen here, in the 5th post from the top:

http://new.jimboarmy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9153&p=112048&hilit=Gina#p112048

AZB rules prohibit the blatant use of profanity, so some editing is in order; but because he dared to disagree with you, in your response you called Jamie the following:

> "a*****e"

> "you f*****g malcontented interloper"

> "Shut the f**k up Wormie you unearned greatness poster child"

> "Your remarks though stupid and meaningless [...] you do this sh*t all the time trying to act like a big shot. Big sh*it is more like it."

> "you sorry ass loser [...] shut your trap. You are an embarrassment and should be ashamed of your self."

> "You always act like a crooked used car salesman"

> "Try to learn some business ethics, stupid"

So help me out here, RIck. Explain how you can instruct members here that "Disagreements are very healthy but should be respectful." when you do not actually adhere to those principles yourself. Here you offer such lofty ideals so that "harmony will prevail", but over there you are the absolute worst when it comes to public disrespect toward others.

And you like to call me "Twoface". Maybe you should leave the etiquette instruction to Miss Manners.

TW
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Yep... And all that after I stated the work in those cues is "exceptional from a master cuemaker". I simply stated an opinion about the cues (which I post here on AZ as well) and Rick attacks me with the comments above.

Everyone that knows me at all understands I am a huge Gina fan and own some of Ernie's cues. But Rick takes exception to anyone that has an opinion that differs with his, and resorts to the disrespectful comments above... The very thing he is asking AZ members to avoid.
 
Worminator said:
Yep... And all that after I stated the work in those cues is "exceptional from a master cuemaker". I simply stated an opinion about the cues (which I post here on AZ as well) and Rick attacks me with the comments above.

Everyone that knows me at all understands I am a huge Gina fan and own some of Ernie's cues. But Rick takes exception to anyone that has an opinion that differs with his, and resorts to the disrespectful comments above... The very thing he is asking AZ members to avoid.
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Jamie,

Forum rules are clear hear. I am not asking anyone to do anything, it is on posted in the sticky thread.

You and I should have been friends but you made that impossible through your attitude from the beginning. Just reminding you respectfully. We are posting on Ask The Cue Maker. I have posted thousands of words as have other CMs exploring our experiences concerning manual and CNC tapering. I did not see anything about ask the cue salesman in OP's questions. It would be a real shame if this thread was deleted. So let take it down a peg.

You are welcome to call me on the phone or pm me your concerns if you wish to clear the air or bury the hatchet, no problem! That's what men should do.

Hijacking threads is not good for personal reasons.

AZ is the positive antithesis of Jimbo's Army. AZ is a business, JA is not. Advertisers require a certain decorum. How simple is that to understand. Posting things from JA is not following the rules period.

What happens there should stay there with respect to AZ. Clear and simple.

What came first Jamie, the chicken or the egg.

Rick

My apologies to the OP for this off track post of rebuttal.
 
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We are posting on Ask The Cue Maker.
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This is not the Ask The Cuemaker section.
This is the Cue Machinery and Supplies section.
The OP's inquiry was thoroughly discussed already.
 
scdiveteam said:
Jamie,

Forum rules are clear hear. I am not asking anyone to do anything, it is on posted in the sticky thread.

You and I should have been friends but you made that impossible through your attitude from the beginning. [...]
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As usual, Rick, you present a severely distorted version of the truth that can only be seen as a blatant lie.

Here is the entire thread:

http://new.jimboarmy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9153

Anyone can read Jamie's original post on page 1 - pretty much identical to his post on AZB - along with a few responses to other posters (NOT you, Rick), continuing onto page 2. The 4th post down, on page 2, is your FIRST post in the thread, and it is the post I quoted from above, in which you violently attacked Jamie [verbally] with the really nasty things I've posted to this thread. . Prior to your first post Jamie had not addressed you in any fashion whatsoever.

So how did Jamie make you being friendly toward him "impossible" through his "attitude... from the beginning"? You jumped on him with both feet right from the get go! You LOVE to tell people you are attacking that they brought your attack on themselves because they "drew first blood"... so please explain how Jamie "drew first blood" in that thread?

You can't, of course, because he didn't... but I'm greatly looking forward to your next spin - and I'm sure others are as well.

TW

 
Thomas Wayne said:


As usual, Rick, you present a severely distorted version of the truth that can only be seen as a blatant lie.

Here is the entire thread:

http://new.jimboarmy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9153

Anyone can read Jamie's original post on page 1 - pretty much identical to his post on AZB - along with a few responses to other posters (NOT you, Rick), continuing onto page 2. The 4th post down, on page 2, is your FIRST post in the thread, and it is the post I quoted from above, in which you violently attacked Jamie [verbally] with the really nasty things I've posted to this thread. . Prior to your first post Jamie had not addressed you in any fashion whatsoever.

So how did Jamie make you being friendly toward him "impossible" through his "attitude... from the beginning"? You jumped on him with both feet right from the get go! You LOVE to tell people you are attacking that they brought your attack on themselves because they "drew first blood"... so please explain how Jamie "drew first blood" in that thread?

You can't, of course, because he didn't... but I'm greatly looking forward to your next spin - and I'm sure others are as well.

TW
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Jamie started his insults years ago TW. I am willing to forgive him. It's all pointless anyway. You have again missed the point completely.

Let it go man. Just water under the bridge.

Sleep well and everything will look different in the AM.

Rick
 
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