Location has very little to do with ANYTHING! But, Money and Prestige of the event is VITAL information and relevant to the decision making process and ranking play!!!
KD
Johnny Archer and Fargo Ratings
- Thread starter mikepage
- Start date
Location has very little to do with ANYTHING! But, Money and Prestige of the event is VITAL information and relevant to the decision making process and ranking play!!!
KD
Look on the Joss turning stone thread. Do you see anyone on that list that is out of order, besides Archer as you have already mentioned? If so, how far out of order? To me, of those 128 names, they are all almost dead on. IMO.
ok i will look and respond
This might help a little: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5253233&postcount=23
This might help a little: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5257905#post5257905
Kid -- We're all learning about this system. Mike is answering every question being asked. There is no need to suggest anything sinister is going on here. Be patient. Ask your questions pleasantly. Take it easy.
Dennis Hatch at #12???
Danny Hewitt at #15???
Ron Casanzio at #20???
these 3 play very very very little and have LIMITED DATA to justify these ratings.
KD
Don't mean to IMPLY anything. Just the HISTORY of the rating systems in pro billiards is grounds for being skeptical. Plus, to start off the system with a PUFF piece on how archer is the #2 player despite his poor position on the leader board for money and poor position based on the PUBLISHED system that was/is supposed to be utilized by the industry. Sends all the wrong signals in my opinion. Sorry for being so negative.
KD
KD - Check out their website. It an ELO system which is widely used. I agree that Mike Page didn't really try to explain the system here, and maybe he should have before just presenting ratings. But the info about this is out there and you have to do only minimal searching to find it.
KD a few things:
First of all, could you please stop using ALL CAPS and multiple exclamation points (!!!) and questions marks (???) in your posts!!!???!!!???
I'm guessing that you're using them to try and emphasize your opinions. If so, they aren't having the intended effect. In fact, your consistent overuse of these things only serves to lessen any salient points that you may actually have in your posts. Truth.
Second, I have to ask you what it is about Fargo ratings that rub you so much the wrong way? What possible negative effect will these ratings have on your life to necessitate your making any of the posts you've made in this thread? Is your health or financial livelihood somehow at stake because Mike is posting these rankings? I could hardly believe that would be the case. Whether you intended to or not, your posts in this thread come off as very threatening and extremely critical.
That being said, your over use of exclamation points and questions marks and ALL CAPS combined with a natural questioning of your motives only serve to paint all of your criticisms as weak attempts to stir the pot. Truth.
Take this as you will.
Pax,
Taek
You are obviously late to the party. This topic has been beat to death on this board. Please do a search and you can find out a ton about me and why I am posting and critical. So, please do some research on my posting history before you try and predict my motives for posting.
As far as my writing style, thanks for the tip. I try to draw attention to major points and ideas and to some it does not help or turns them off. Many have no problem with it.
You are a new member as of your 2010 join date and much of what has transpired has historically been very ugly to put it nicely. I am certain other senior members will chime in and elaborate on the shenanigans in the past. If you have trouble locating the threads I speak of I will post links to them shortly.
Sincerely
KD
The Fargo ratings have been beat to death on this board? That is patently untrue.
I've read many of your posts actually. I particularly enjoyed Justin Bergman's response to your Mosconi Cup selection criticisms:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=4979038#post4979038
Let me assure you, many more have a problem with it.
I'm not exactly sure what my join date has to do with my post? Are you implying because your join date was a whopping 4 years earlier than mine that you somehow posses an 80% greater understanding of what transpires in the pool world? Should we extrapolate that to mean that someone who is 23 years older than I (I'm 46) automatically possesses a 50% greater understanding of what transpires in the world in general? I see...
No need to post links because as I demonstrated earlier I'm quite familiar enough with your posting history.
Whatever, stir away.
Pax,
Taek
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What is your point?
You do not like what I have to say. So, what?
I assumed you posted your comment to obtain a response. I respond and you clearly attack that response.
this thread below is dated 2012 and there are others earlier about "Ranking Systems"
Not the "fargo ranking system" that did not exist in 2012 and recently made its debut in 2015.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=3802105&highlight=mosconi#post3802105
"There are SEVERAL scenario’s that are possible for corruption and underhanded behavior and those scenario’s don’t have to exist!!!!
Scenario 1: Someone is in the Hunt for the Mosconi Cup spot and the powers that be go behind closed doors and stack the road to the US OPEN extremely hard via the Seeding and lack of a REAL DRAW for the person they don’t want to win!!!
Scenario 2: Someone is in the hunt for the Mosconi Cup spot and pay a person to take a dive so they can get the few points they need for the extra CASH!!!
Scenario 3: Someone is in the hunt for the Mosconi Cup spot and behind closed doors draw Elmur Fudd, then Miss Piggy followed by Daffy Duck and are purposely placed on the softest side of the board to help them get the Mosconi cup slot! intended for them!!
Scenario 4: Someone wins a spot and all of a sudden it is switched from top 5 players to captain selection!!!
Scenario 5: Someone wins a spot and all of a sudden it is switched from top 5 to Mosconi Cup MVP automatic slot:
Scenario 6:Someone wins a spot and all of a sudden it is switched from top 5 to Matchroom choice!
Scenario 7: Someone wins a spot and all of a sudden 2 more events are added to the calculation! So, intended player has more chances to win the slot!
Scenario 8: Someone wins a spot and all of a sudden some events they did well in are worth less points and some events others did good in are worth more! Changing the outcome!
Scenario 9: Someone wins a spot and all of a sudden there is a drastic change in how many points 1st to last are awarded. Same money added and same field but 1st gets 100 points and the other event was awarded 200 points all things equal. But, hey the intended person is now in the points lead.
I can go on and on and on about the possible ways of manipulation to basically steal a slot from the the TRUE winner and give it to whom ever they want! Just stop dangling the carrot for these young guns and pulling it away as soon as they GRAB it!!!
Why have BCA do these calculations and guys jumping through hoops when they are never intended to EVER be the recipient."
To those members enduring this guys tirade. I apologize, I just get tired of people attacking posts and the people that make the posts that they don't like. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the right to voice it.
KD
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Maybe you would feel differently if you realized I started this thread as a response to the following comment by Watchez in another thread
So I didn't choose to single out Archer. But the case of Archer ended up being a good vehicle to show that Archer's rating would be the same even if we only considered his games from August 2013 to now.
Also, our ratings are not smoke and mirrors.
Imagine every one of our 35,000 players has a rating--say a rating guessed by you. Then imagine you replayed every one of the the 1.3 millions games we have in the system amongst these players. Given your ratings, there will be a probability--a very small probability--all these games turned out the way they did.
Then imagine someone else rated all the players, and he too went through all the games computing the probability the whole slew of them worked out the way they did.
If his probability is higher than yours, he has better ratings.
Our ratings are the ones that produce the highest possible probability. They are, mathematically, the maximum likelihood ratings. We compute them fresh, from scratch, every day.
So if you want to reward players on a list for having won a lot of money or
placing high in tournaments or matches or showing up a lot, or beating the right people, be our guest. That is fine.
But if you want to predict how many games will be won by each player when two particular players play a match or a series of games, then you should pay attention to what we are doing.
Mike just dropped the mic, folks.
I"m not sure, that you're seeing what this is...
This is NOT meant to show standings in the world of pool. This is meant to show ability.
You can't say these people hardly ever play, so they don't have the ability to play.
What the fargo rating does is tell you the likelihood these guys will have of winning a match against another player when and if they DO play.
I went through and looked up a lot of people that I know how well they play and guessed at their rating prior to looking it up, with very few exceptions, I was dead on in my estimate of their rating.
so I would have to say that the rating is pretty close to dead on accurate.
Jaden
This is NOT meant to show standings in the world of pool. This is meant to show ability.
You can't say these people hardly ever play, so they don't have the ability to play.
What the fargo rating does is tell you the likelihood these guys will have of winning a match against another player when and if they DO play.
I went through and looked up a lot of people that I know how well they play and guessed at their rating prior to looking it up, with very few exceptions, I was dead on in my estimate of their rating.
so I would have to say that the rating is pretty close to dead on accurate.
Jaden
KD, did you go to www.fargorate.com and read the whole site, and watch the entire videos? That will take less than 1 hour. It really explains a lot. I did it yesterday and today, and it was very informative.
I completely understand your reservation for "any" points system, seeding systems, etc. And that they could be manipulated, especially if there are questionable people involved, such as CW.
The Fargorate system attempts to unify every single player, worldwide. From bangers to Efren. Its much different than any other ratings system to date.
Anyway, I've said my piece. Good shooting to you.
I completely understand your reservation for "any" points system, seeding systems, etc. And that they could be manipulated, especially if there are questionable people involved, such as CW.
The Fargorate system attempts to unify every single player, worldwide. From bangers to Efren. Its much different than any other ratings system to date.
Anyway, I've said my piece. Good shooting to you.
My point is, since Fargo ratings aren't used for anything right now except as an intellectual exercise to provide a mathematically based means from which you can predict the outcome of a match ALL of your scenarios regarding taking a dive and Mosconi Cup spots are worthless conjecture hardly worth your concern.
You're making a mountain out of a molehill and taking away from what otherwise would be a highly entertaining discussion on the unique challenges one faces when trying to apply mathematical analysis to playing pool. Truth.
Pax,
Taek
i appreciate your post and comment. I think it could work very well ranking international and domestic players together for an unbiased seeding system used at the US OPEN 9 ball and other major events.
All I ask, is that safety nets exist and transparency provided. That way, a contender can assure they are not cheated and can assess what they need to do to merit, what every the sport has to offer.
KD
My post and comments were not meant to detract from the Fargo Ranking System. I was only made aware of this thread today and have very little info. My comment was regarding the lack of info about the system and not about Mosconi Cup selection. Archer was at the center of some of the controversy previously, It was only logical to deduce it was being introduced this way to make the argument for Archers selection and the use of this system going forward.
KD