Shafts with Pilots

HawaiianEye

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Aloha,

I notice that a lot of shafts (particularly 5-16/14) are sold with a metal pilot that protrudes from the base of shaft and extends into the joint of the cue.

All my custom cues have wooden pilots that are compression fit and fit inside the joint tightly.

What is the purpose of a pilot on an "after-market" shaft if the pilot is just "floating" inside the joint and touching nothing inside the joint?
 
Aloha,

I notice that a lot of shafts (particularly 5-16/14) are sold with a metal pilot that protrudes from the base of shaft and extends into the joint of the cue.

All my custom cues have wooden pilots that are compression fit and fit inside the joint tightly.

What is the purpose of a pilot on an "after-market" shaft if the pilot is just "floating" inside the joint and touching nothing inside the joint?

The compression fit doesn't serve a purpose either.

They are just a holdover from the days of yore, pilots were for centering the shaft onto the butt.
 
The compression fit doesn't serve a purpose either.....

I believe differently... The compression fit allows better and more complete contact with the joint. The same cue using two shafts, one with a compression fit shaft pilot and one without will have a different feel. Compression is more solid IMO...
 
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In my experience, EVERY cue has a different feel. Even if they are built identically. The degree of difference the way the joint goes together is totally negligible, in my opinion.
 
I believe differently... The compression fit allows better and more complete contact with the joint. The same cue using two shafts, one with a compression fit shaft pilot and one without will have a different feel. Compression is more solid IMO...

I bet I could trim the pilot off your Tasc shaft and you would NEVER know.

I've done it before to help a shaft a guy liked fit multiple cues and it didn't change it at all.

Marketing is the master in a slow market.
 
In my experience, EVERY cue has a different feel. Even if they are built identically. The degree of difference the way the joint goes together is totally negligible, in my opinion.


Ok, could answer a couple of questions for me... Which would translate to more transfer of vibration or energy between two halves, more surface contact or less?... AND, If you had a choice of having MORE surface contact at a joint or LESS, which would YOU "prefer"?
 
I bet I could trim the pilot off your Tasc shaft and you would NEVER know.

I've done it before to help a shaft a guy liked fit multiple cues and it didn't change it at all.

Marketing is the master in a slow market.

I'd take that bet anytime... BUT you supply the TASC. You aint using any of mine :smile:
 
Ok, could answer a couple of questions for me... Which would translate to more transfer of vibration or energy between two halves, more surface contact or less?... AND, If you had a choice of having MORE surface contact at a joint or LESS, which would YOU "prefer"?

I think the problem with this common position is that once there is enough contact area to prevent any movement between the 2 sides of the joint, no additional contact area will make any difference.

As long as the 2 sides of the joint are positively affixed to each other, and they stay that way during the shot, the transfer of vibration will be the same. I believe that all the common joints are capable of positively coupling the 2 sides together without movement.

Many years ago John McChesney tested this theory with close to or over 100 players. He disguised the joints and asked the players to identify what it was. Almost all of them failed. Feel is just too subjective and being humans we are too subject to the power of suggestion.

Personally, I believe the weight of the joint makes a fairly significant difference in the feel of the hit. An old school steel joint, which has a lot of weight in the joint area, will vibrate differently than a 3/8-10 wood to wood joint which weight less. However, you can add weight to the 3/8-10 and it will start to feel more like the heavier steel joint.

This is always a fun topic!


Royce
 
I think the problem with this common position is that once there is enough contact area to prevent any movement between the 2 sides of the joint, no additional contact area will make any difference.

As long as the 2 sides of the joint are positively affixed to each other, and they stay that way during the shot, the transfer of vibration will be the same. I believe that all the common joints are capable of positively coupling the 2 sides together without movement.

Many years ago John McChesney tested this theory with close to or over 100 players. He disguised the joints and asked the players to identify what it was. Almost all of them failed. Feel is just too subjective and being humans we are too subject to the power of suggestion.

Personally, I believe the weight of the joint makes a fairly significant difference in the feel of the hit. An old school steel joint, which has a lot of weight in the joint area, will vibrate differently than a 3/8-10 wood to wood joint which weight less. However, you can add weight to the 3/8-10 and it will start to feel more like the heavier steel joint.

This is always a fun topic!


Royce

Winner, winner... chicken dinner.

Dale
 
I think the problem with this common position is that once there is enough contact area to prevent any movement between the 2 sides of the joint, no additional contact area will make any difference.

As long as the 2 sides of the joint are positively affixed to each other, and they stay that way during the shot, the transfer of vibration will be the same. I believe that all the common joints are capable of positively coupling the 2 sides together without movement.

Many years ago John McChesney tested this theory with close to or over 100 players. He disguised the joints and asked the players to identify what it was. Almost all of them failed. Feel is just too subjective and being humans we are too subject to the power of suggestion.

Personally, I believe the weight of the joint makes a fairly significant difference in the feel of the hit. An old school steel joint, which has a lot of weight in the joint area, will vibrate differently than a 3/8-10 wood to wood joint which weight less. However, you can add weight to the 3/8-10 and it will start to feel more like the heavier steel joint.

This is always a fun topic!


Royce

I have many cues with all sorts of joints. None of my cues play exactly the same. I can tell the difference it hit with all of them. That said, I've done my own tests with shafts from the same maker piloted and flat faced. I believe I can "feel" the difference in the ones which have a compression fit..Some may not be able to feel any difference and that's fine. Either way I still contend that more contact leads to a more complete transfer of vibration.

Think of it this way, when you attach a handle to a forearm why not leave the handle tenon undersized so the tenon doesn't touch the inner wall of the forearm and use glue only on the screw and faces? I mean the faces will still meet flush and it will screw in and bottom out so why use glue on the handle tenon. Well we all know why glue is used. Obviously for an eventual all around better mating of the two pieces.

The compression pilot is the next best thing to glueing for temporary joining IMO.

And YES this is a fun topic and one I am strongly opinionated..:smile:
 
I have many cues with all sorts of joints. None of my cues play exactly the same. I can tell the difference it hit with all of them. That said, I've done my own tests with shafts from the same maker piloted and flat faced. I believe I can "feel" the difference in the ones which have a compression fit..Some may not be able to feel any difference and that's fine. Either way I still contend that more contact leads to a more complete transfer of vibration.

Think of it this way, when you attach a handle to a forearm why not leave the handle tenon undersized so the tenon doesn't touch the inner wall of the forearm and use glue only on the screw and faces? I mean the faces will still meet flush and it will screw in and bottom out so why use glue on the handle tenon. Well we all know why glue is used. Obviously for an eventual all around better mating of the two pieces.

The compression pilot is the next best thing to glueing for temporary joining IMO.

And YES this is a fun topic and one I am strongly opinionated..:smile:



Skins

Thanks for chiming back in!

I too have hit with many cues, and at one time I shared your position.

As Sheldon has mentioned, 2 cues built perfectly identical will almost always play differently. It's the nature of wood and natural materials. The only way I know to really test this objectively, would be to have a large group of cues all made with the same materials and all made as close to the same as possible excepting the piloted joint. Other than the joint pilot fitting tight, all other things must be as equal as possible. Externally, the cues must not be visibly detectable as to which has the pilot and which do not. This should be done with at least a dozen cues, 6 of each.

These cues would then be given to a group of players, all with medium to high skill levels, for evaluation. They must not ever be told which cues are which, nor should they ever be allowed to take them apart to see for themselves. They are only to hit balls with them to determine which ones they think are which. Also, they should not be able to visit with each other about any particular cue. They are only to state which cues they think are piloted and which are not.

This test would reasonably deal with the variances in materials as well as the variances in skills and perceptions. It would also eliminate the possibility of the influence of perception. No player will hit with a cue thinking, "this one is piloted so I know it's going to be more solid than that other one".

If this test is actually performed, I think the findings would surprise most. Not only would the group most likely have difficulty telling which cues were piloted and which were not, but I don't think they would even come close to agreeing on which cues actually played to the best. They might even fight over it! lol.

I'm quite certain your test and conclusions are honest and with full conviction. I'm also quite certain that I don't think they had a large enough sampling to out run normal variations in the cues as well as eliminate the possibility that your existing belief's affected your conclusions. Please don't take this as an insult. It certainly isn't intended as such. It's pretty much impossible to remain that objective in testing your own conclusions.

I really don't think this difference in opinion will ever be resolved. I also don't necessarily think that it should. I think it would be a great thing for both pool and this forum to learn to accept that others have different opinions about things. And that is OK. I respect your position. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I most certainly respect it. I also respect you for voicing it. These types of discussions are healthy for all of us as long as they remain respectful of both sides.


Royce
 
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Either way I still contend that more contact leads to a more complete transfer of vibration.

I think I will basically agree with this...sort of. When weld inspection by way of ultrasonics, the way it works is that a ultrasonic wave is sent into the metal and the return waves are monitored. When the waves hit the edge of the material or a void, it rebounds. Measuring the delay of rebound can tell how thick the material is at the point it is measuring. The waves will, tho, rebound or slow when they hit an inclusion of different material, so there is a bit of unknown in the results (though in a weld, an inclusion is as bad as a void, so it doesn't affect the results of the inspection).

FYI, this is the exact technology that is used to tell if your developing sex trophy has an innie or an outie.

So, in a cue, the waves are going to rebound when they hit a void. They are also going to partially rebound when they hit a more or less dense material. Thus, any change in material or any void is going to change the characteristics of the wave. Figuring out what that change is requires an entire scientific field. I have some programs which could simulate this, but the accuracy and the meaning still might be in question.
 
Skins

Thanks for chiming back in!

I too have hit with many cues, and at one time I shared your position.

As Sheldon has mentioned, 2 cues built perfectly identical will almost always play differently. It's the nature of wood and natural materials. The only way I know to really test this objectively, would be to have a large group of cues all made with the same materials and all made as close to the same as possible excepting the piloted joint. Other than the joint pilot fitting tight, all other things must be as equal as possible. Externally, the cues must not be visibly detectable as to which has the pilot and which do not. This should be done with at least a dozen cues, 6 of each.

The way to test this would be to make a group of cues that aren't wood, but rather a man-made, highly-controlled material from a single batch run of that material. All scientific testing and all engineering is about reducing the number of unknowns.

I didn't quote the rest of your post, but I like your attitude.
 
Skins

Thanks for chiming back in!

I too have hit with many cues, and at one time I shared your position.

As Sheldon has mentioned, 2 cues built perfectly identical will almost always play differently. It's the nature of wood and natural materials. The only way I know to really test this objectively, would be to have a large group of cues all made with the same materials and all made as close to the same as possible excepting the piloted joint. Other than the joint pilot fitting tight, all other things must be as equal as possible. Externally, the cues must not be visibly detectable as to which has the pilot and which do not. This should be done with at least a dozen cues, 6 of each.

These cues would then be given to a group of players, all with medium to high skill levels, for evaluation. They must not ever be told which cues are which, nor should they ever be allowed to take them apart to see for themselves. They are only to hit balls with them to determine which ones they think are which. Also, they should not be able to visit with each other about any particular cue. They are only to state which cues they think are piloted and which are not.

This test would reasonably deal with the variances in materials as well as the variances in skills and perceptions. It would also eliminate the possibility of the influence of perception. No player will hit with a cue thinking, "this one is piloted so I know it's going to be more solid than that other one".

If this test is actually performed, I think the findings would surprise most. Not only would the group most likely have difficulty telling which cues were piloted and which were not, but I don't think they would even come close to agreeing on which cues actually played to the best. They might even fight over it! lol.

I'm quite certain your test and conclusions are honest and with full conviction. I'm also quite certain that I don't think they had a large enough sampling to out run normal variations in the cues as well as eliminate the possibility that your existing belief's affected your conclusions. Please don't take this as an insult. It certainly isn't intended as such. It's pretty much impossible to remain that objective in testing your own conclusions.

I really don't think this difference in opinion will ever be resolved. I also don't necessarily think that it should. I think it would be a great thing for both pool and this forum to learn to accept that others have different opinions about things. And that is OK. I respect your position. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I most certainly respect it. I also respect you for voicing it. These types of discussions are healthy for all of us as long as they remain respectful of both sides.


Royce

Yeah Royce you're right that I'm sure my small tests don't have a true "control" and will concede that my result have limits. I would like to say though that in the least just for the sake of my own thought to my common sense, if I'm going to own or make a cue with a piloted joint I'm going to want it be with a compression fit so it gives more surface contact and at least a "perception" of a better connection which MAY lead to a better feel. Thanks for jumping in Royce. I hold in high regard your opinion as well and your contributions to this forum!... Tim :)
 
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Yeah Royce you're right that I'm sure my small tests don't have a true "control" and will concede that my result have limits. I would like to say though that in the least just for the sake of my own thought to my common sense, if I'm going to own or make a cue with a piloted joint I'm going to want it be with a compression fit so it gives more surface contact and at least a "perception" of a better connection which MAY lead to a better feel. Thanks for jumping in Royce. I hold in high regard your opinion as well and your contributions to this forum!... Tim :)

Skins (Tim)


Thanks for your great response!

It's really great to see a conversation like this come out as this one has. Hopefully, others will follow your lead.

I'd like to meet you and shake your hand. What events do you get out to? I'm in Vegas now holding over from the BCA Trade Show to attend the APA Nationals the next 2 weeks. If you'll be out here, please come by and introduce yourself.

I also make it up to the SBE, and out to the BCAPL as well. I've been in Vegas for the last 3 weeks. First for the BCAPL at the Rio and then the BCA Trade Show at South Pointe. Yes, I'm already tired of being in Las Vegas! Been that way for a couple of weeks now.

Anyway, I hope to meet you some day.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Skins (Tim)


Thanks for your great response!

It's really great to see a conversation like this come out as this one has. Hopefully, others will follow your lead.

I'd like to meet you and shake your hand. What events do you get out to? I'm in Vegas now holding over from the BCA Trade Show to attend the APA Nationals the next 2 weeks. If you'll be out here, please come by and introduce yourself.

I also make it up to the SBE, and out to the BCAPL as well. I've been in Vegas for the last 3 weeks. First for the BCAPL at the Rio and then the BCA Trade Show at South Pointe. Yes, I'm already tired of being in Las Vegas! Been that way for a couple of weeks now.

Anyway, I hope to meet you some day.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

Right back at ya Royce! For the past few years I haven't been to too many events unless it's in the Midwest and the stars align just right.:smile:.. I would like to start going to the expos again when Keith (Josey) can attend as well since that's who I work with. I would love to meet someday and talk cues or just say "hey":smile:
 
This is a great discussion. With my cues, the pilot is used for the radial alignment of the 2 pieces. I like to use the 5/16-18 tpi thread as it has in my opinion a higher strength at holding the pieces together for the same amount of torque or tightening amount.
I usually have about 0.001 inch diameter clearance on the spigot to the socket.
Neil
 
Belief will always trump reality to some degree.
For everyone.

Sheldon <--- ↑ truly believes this ↑
 
Occams Razor... It has a very keen way of exposing some reality...

Skins >>>>>> believes in reality :)
 
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