A Huge Thank You from CueSports International (CSI)!

[Ky Boy]

I've been outta the loop for awhile and haven't watched any streams for awhile.

So my question is this...Was Bigtruck nd his PPV stream setup in house at the CSI event or were they say at another location across town, or in a different state?

Thanks!

 

[benny-the-blade]

I've been outta the loop for awhile and haven't watched any streams for awhile.

So my question is this...Was Bigtruck nd his PPV stream setup in house at the CSI event or were they say at another location across town, or in a different state?

Thanks!

Different locations, but both in Las Vegas. Big Truck was set up at Good Timez Billiards.

 

[Ky Boy]

Different locations, but both in Las Vegas. Big Truck was set up at Good Timez Billiards.

Thanks for clarifying Benny!

What a way for Ozzy to repay Ray for helping get up and streaming for the events he used to do. Sky is a good kid and hate to see him get strong armed like that.

It blows that viewership is so low when 2 competing streams can kill any profit each stand to make.

 

[cleary]

A good business uses leverage all the time. So what if Sky wants to play in the Mars open the same weekend as turning stone where the winner is guaranteed to take home $40,000. Would you say turning stone is unethical by offering MC points?

What if the Mars open guarantees $250,000 to the winner. Would they be using leverage? Would that leverage be enough to make him go to the Mars open?

In both instances the player has a choice.

Nothing unethical about it. It is called competition


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Sometimes things are just so stupid they're hard to respond to. Mostly because I know whatever I write will sound like "bleep blop bloop" to you.

 

[spartan]

Intentional or not?

Why the Silence?

So, What Really Happened?
Oscar Dominguez and Skyler Woodward had agreed to play their match on July 22 and 23 beginning at 4pm each day and then asked Ray Hansen to stream it via PPV. I assume that Ray and the two players would split the PPV revenue in some fashion – as is usually the case. Neither of the three parties knew that we had already scheduled and announced The Kamui Challenge and The Tiger Challenge for July 22 and 23 beginning at 5pm each day.

When I saw the flyer for their match, I immediately called Ray Hansen. Ray informed me that he was not the organizer so the scheduling was out of his control. He was simply asked to stream it. I then called Oscar. He was completely unaware of the conflict and was very apologetic. After discussing possible solutions to avoid the conflict, Oscar’s girlfriend (Desiree Rivera) proposed a solution. She suggested that the Oscar/Skyler match begin at 2pm each day and take a long break at 5pm when our challenge matches began. This would prevent a situation in which two PPV streams were running simultaneously and people that wanted to watch both could do so. Oscar, Ray, and I all agreed that this was a good solution and would benefit everyone.

Oscar then contacted Skyler to get his approval. A few minutes later, Oscar called me back and said that Skyler’s backer said, “No…the match will be played as originally agreed.” I then contacted Skyler and explained the entire situation to him. He seemed to understand and said that he would speak with his backer and get back with me shortly. A day later, he still had not contacted me so I reached out again. He said that he hadn’t spoken with his backer yet but would do so soon. I expressed the urgency and he seemed to understand. Another day went by and I reached out to him again. He then said that they were not going to move the match up to accommodate us. I explained to him that running two PPV streams would not be good for either of us because we may split the audience rather than giving people the opportunity to watch both. I again asked him and his backer to reconsider so we could work with each other rather than against each other. Again, they said, “No.” I then explained to Skyler that his unwillingness to compromise would damage our live stream viewership, interfere with our ability to recover the cost of paying the players and the stream crew, and hurt our sponsors – Kamui and Tiger. He still said, “No.” Finally, I told him that if he maintained his position to intentionally harm us and our sponsors, we would have to seriously consider whether or not to accept his entry into our events (which he had not yet registered for). He and his backer finally agreed to compromise.

I then informed Oscar and Ray that Skyler agreed. Ray and I agreed that he would encourage his viewers to flip over to our challenge match and we would encourage our viewers to flip over to his later in the evening. We would work with each other rather than compete for the same tiny market of PPV viewers.

Bullying?
What happened was not bullying. CSI guaranteed $30,000 to be added to the US Open events and we had to pay a live stream crew of seven (7) people for 11 days. We recover some (definitely not all) of that money through sponsorships, VIP seats, and live stream revenue. Additionally, our sponsors pay for exposure. A competing PPV stream scheduled directly on top of our two challenge matches would limit their exposure and make them less likely to be a sponsor in future years. Without sponsors, there are either no events or smaller prize funds in the future – both of which are bad for the players. Our position was simple and logical…if you intentionally harm us or our sponsors, you may not be welcome to play in our events. That’s not bullying…that’s accountability for your choices.

There also seems to be some notion that people have a right to play in various independent events produced by individual businesses. That is untrue. Like most businesses, the entities that provide the funding have the right to refuse service to anyone. Although we want everyone to participate and have equal opportunity at our events, we are not required to service someone who intentionally harms us, our sponsors, or our other members. This holds true for someone who organizes a competing live stream directly on top of ours or someone who publically attacks us on social media. They have the absolute right to do those things and we have the absolute right to not do business with them. Again, that’s not bullying…that’s accepting the consequences of your actions.

Final Thoughts
So, there it is. Those are the details. You have the right to agree or disagree. You have the right to continue to post whatever comments you wish. You have the right to publically criticize or attack me or CSI anytime you wish. None of that really bothers me or will deter us from pushing forward and making a real difference in an otherwise tragic industry. This will be the last time that I ever reply on AZBilliards to a “demand for answers” based on a contrived conspiracy by people who contribute nothing but negativity and divisiveness. So, if you ever wonder why there is no response from CSI on this forum, there is your answer.

To all of those good people who make up the silent majority here, I don’t blame you for not posting here and we truly thank you for your support. Thank you.

Well you can probably refuse players playing in your events ( though with MC points , matchroom is a stakeholder so it may not be so straightforward)
The key here is "intentional". What evidence do you have that Team Sky is "intentionally" sabotaging CSI? If you have evidence that Team Sky is engaging in industrial sabotage activities against CSI, then go ahead and be tough with them-it is business
But if it is not "intentional" and is a reason you conjure to justify your action, then you lost the plot and this is a strong arm bully tactic.
Team Sky can also say that you "intentionally" want to sabotage their event. It is not simply "my way or the highway".

 

[JoeyA]

My son and I had a blast at the CSI/BCA National Championships, despite a poor showing in the matches I played.

The mini-tournaments were fun to play in and they ran day and night. Lol

A side trip to Mt. Charleston was awesome since I come from the flat lands of Louisiana.

JoeyA

 

[Kris_b1104]

This is crazy. I wonder what would have happened if Oscar and Ray also disagreed to Ozzy's terms. Would Ozzy throw away his 5 year friendship with Ray and 2 year friendship with Oscar for the sake of 2 nights of streaming, while also banning Oscar and Skylar from playing in future CSI events?

That's like Big truck telling Shane or Mike Dechaine to take a break while playing their match or else neither one of them can ever play in a Fight Night challenge match, even if Ozzy and Mark agreed. What does Shane have to do with the scheduling of the match? And by the way if this was the other way around, Ozzy would have definitely not agreed to something like this if Bigtruck had asked.

What ever happened to friendly competition? Is CSI not confident enough in their product that they have to strong arm a minor? Ozzy's response just raises more unanswered questions.

 

[RBC]

The US OPEN 8-ball and 10-ball were both MC points events.

Yes, they were.

But they were also CSI events.

The part of your comments that I take exception to was this:

You stated
"It was not just their own event they had to threaten Sky with, they used points for events they do not run or own to work with, and that should not be the case."

This is the part I responded to.

So tell me, Celtic, just exactly were did your statements come from?

Were you speaking of something you know about directly?
Were you passing something along that you heard, or, were you simply speculating as to what the truth was?

In any case your statement was wrong. And when I pointed it out,you tried to dodge it.


Royce

 

[RBC]

This is crazy. I wonder what would have happened if Oscar and Ray also disagreed to Ozzy's terms. Would Ozzy throw away his 5 year friendship with Ray and 2 year friendship with Oscar for the sake of 2 nights of streaming, while also banning Oscar and Skylar from playing in future CSI events?

That's like Big truck telling Shane or Mike Dechaine to take a break while playing their match or else neither one of them can ever play in a Fight Night challenge match, even if Ozzy and Mark agreed. What does Shane have to do with the scheduling of the match? And by the way if this was the other way around, Ozzy would have definitely not agreed to something like this if Bigtruck had asked.

What ever happened to friendly competition? Is CSI not confident enough in their product that they have to strong arm a minor? Ozzy's response just raises more unanswered questions.

Well, when Ray is putting up the prize fund, then he would be on the same negotiating ground as CSI who had 30K on the line.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that most likely the players were all here in Vegas because if the CSI events. Without that, it would be much more difficult for them to have this challenge match. The hardest part, getting them together in the same place at the same time, was already done.

Personally, I think Ray was very smart in all this, by setting this up when they were all together anyway.

Royce

 

[lfigueroa]

Does anybody else see as bizarre the adoration for and the reverence given in this community to high-stakes gambling matches? I don't mean serious matchups between top players--that SHOULD get our respect.

But what I find weird is if I say Sky's playing Morra a race to 20, the first question is "what are they playing for?" The answer could be $500 or it could be $20,000. If it $500, the matchup seems like not such a big deal; If it's $20,000, it is a big deal. Why is this?

Think about it . If it is $20,000, that means Sky's backer(s) are gambling against Morra's backer(s). So what? You can watch people at craps table bet it up too.. Is it really that exciting?

Where it really gets weird is we then take the best and most promising players in the country and the world, and some high roller has them by the short hairs.

It is naive to think Ozzy was really communicating with Skylar Woodward. Ozzy was communicating THROUGH Skylar Woodward with some unknown-to-most-of-us gambler.

Such unknowns wouldn't be able to treat our best pool players like puppets if we didn't show such reverence to "big stakes" matchups.

We are a pretty weird group--essentially high rolling ourselves.

Mike

Hasn't pool always been like that? It's part of the culture.

Who famously said: Two world champions playing a tournament match on one table and two mid-level players playing next to them for a couple of hundred, everyone will be sweating the $200 match.

Lou Figueroa

 

[cleary]

Well, when Ray is putting up the prize fund, then he would be on the same negotiating ground as CSI who had 30K on the line.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that most likely the players were all here in Vegas because if the CSI events. Without that, it would be much more difficult for them to have this challenge match. The hardest part, getting them together in the same place at the same time, was already done.

Personally, I think Ray was very smart in all this, by setting this up when they were all together anyway.

Royce

I really like how the number of $30k keeps getting tossed around as if it had anything to do with Sky playing Oscar. Unless I'm mistaken, they didn't add $30k to Shaw/Deuel & Van Boening/Dechaine.

Yes, obviously Skylar and Oscar were in Vegas to play in the US Open 8ball and 10ball but scheduled their gambling match prior to that tournament before anything else was announced. I have no damn clue why that matters... If Skylar won $20k on a slot machine, does CSI take ownership of that as well for luring him to their city?

The part of your comments that I take exception to was this:

You stated
"It was not just their own event they had to threaten Sky with, they used points for events they do not run or own to work with, and that should not be the case."

What he's saying is they're dangling Mosconi Cup points over the kids head. If he doesn't play in the CSI events, he probably cannot make the Mosconi Cup team and that's horses!t.

 

[Celtic]

Yes, they were.

But they were also CSI events.

The part of your comments that I take exception to was this:

You stated
"It was not just their own event they had to threaten Sky with, they used points for events they do not run or own to work with, and that should not be the case."

This is the part I responded to.

So tell me, Celtic, just exactly were did your statements come from?

Were you speaking of something you know about directly?
Were you passing something along that you heard, or, were you simply speculating as to what the truth was?

In any case your statement was wrong. And when I pointed it out,you tried to dodge it.


Royce

Uhh, huh?

What you quoted is exactly what I meant. The Mosconi Cup points Sky would miss out on is absolutely part of his loss and part of CSI's leverage they used.

What is your issue? That IS what occurred based on what Ozzy himself said. The fact that Ozzy did not come right out and say "and you will miss out on the MC points" does not really matter, that absolutely would have been part of the loss and both sides know that full we'll as do all of us. Pretending otherwise is just... dumb.

 

[JAM]

I give Ozzy a compliment and praise, but thereafter get called out for calling him a "kid." Sheesh! Everybody is a kid to me at 61 years old. I meant no disrepect whatsoever. Seems like women are easier prey on this forum for some.

You-all need to let it go. I think decisions are made for the betterment of tournaments sometimes. Not everybody will agree with these decisions.

It's like the referee calling a good hit or bad hit in the middle of a match. He comes to the table, watches the hit, and then makes the wrong call. Everybody in the audience knows it's the wrong call, but he's the referee and the final decision-making authority. There ain't a damn thing anybody can do about it. In the end, the referee is the authoritative body. In an event like CSI put on, CSI is the authoritative body. Their decisions are made for the betterment of the event. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

About Skylar and his backer, it's their prerogative to do what is best for them. Skylar may go the way of an action player and not be interested in being a tournament soldier, so who gives a f*** then about Mosconi points? Who can blame him? There's more money in action than tournaments, these days. Go Skylar, go!

 

[Keith Jawahir]

I give Ozzy a compliment and praise, but thereafter get called out for calling him a "kid." Sheesh! Everybody is a kid to me at 61 years old. I meant no disrepect whatsoever. Seems like women are easier prey on this forum for some.

You-all need to let it go. I think decisions are made for the betterment of tournaments sometimes. Not everybody will agree with these decisions.

It's like the referee calling a good hit or bad hit in the middle of a match. He comes to the table, watches the hit, and then makes the wrong call. Everybody in the audience knows it's the wrong call, but he's the referee and the final decision-making authority. There ain't a damn thing anybody can do about it. In the end, the referee is the authoritative body. In an event like CSI put on, CSI is the authoritative body. Their decisions are made for the betterment of the event. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

About Skylar and his backer, it's their prerogative to do what is best for them. Skylar may go the way of an action player and not be interested in being a tournament soldier, so who gives a f*** then about Mosconi points? Who can blame him? There's more money in action than tournaments, these days. Go Skylar, go!

huh?

 

[JAM]

I really like how the number of $30k keeps getting tossed around as if it had anything to do with Sky playing Oscar . . .

Alliegiance, Cleary, is the name of the game in this thread. People are going to go with who butters their bread.

BTW, I think you'd be a shoe-in for Saturday Night Live with your talent and quick wit. I'm not kidding. You should be putting your energies into something like that instead of this pool world. You need a promoter.

 

[JAM]

huh?

What is your inquiry?

 

[robsnotes4u]

It's like the referee calling a good hit or bad hit in the middle of a match. He comes to the table, watches the hit, and then makes the wrong call. Everybody in the audience knows it's the wrong call, but he's the referee and the final decision-making authority. There ain't a damn thing anybody can do about it. In the end, the referee is the authoritative body. In an event like CSI put on, CSI is the authoritative body. Their decisions are made for the betterment of the event. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

About Skylar and his backer, it's their prerogative to do what is best for them. Skylar may go the way of an action player and not be interested in being a tournament soldier, so who gives a f*** then about Mosconi points? Who can blame him? There's more money in action than tournaments, these days. Go Skylar, go!

Great point. If Skylar's backers and him do not have the same goals maybe it is time to find a different backer.

Play with your own money and then you can make your own decisions and do what is best for you


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[watchez]

Great point. If Skylar's backers and him do not have the same goals maybe it is time to find a different backer.

Play with your own money and then you can make your own decisions and do what is best for you


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Tell the truth -- you don't even think before you respond.

Oh by the way - now Ozzy who said he wouldn't respond is on Facebook making snide remarks.

 

[cleary]

BTW, I think you'd be a shoe-in for Saturday Night Live with your talent and quick wit. I'm not kidding. You should be putting your energies into something like that instead of this pool world. You need a promoter.

Put me in coach!

 

[watchez]

For the U.S. Pool player, the only thing left is the Mosconi Cup. The U.S. Open is a title but a yearly headache for the pool player. All the other events are nice but no one remembers who won or lost 4 months later.

If the Vega$ events didn't have Mosconi Cup points, I would be willing to bet that Skylar would have opted out. But Ozzy knew this and used it to pressure the situation into getting what he wanted. Then he comes on here and tries to twist things further by using the word intentional. I honestly was done with all of this after talking to Mark on the phone but when lies are being spewed here it is something I can't let go. If Ozzy thinks for a second that Sky has/had the desire and is conniving enough to try to intentionally hurt CSI, he has a lot of re-evaluting to do cause his judgement is way off. About as far off as it was when he came up with the round robin plan for the 2014 Vegas events and we all know about the failure with that. (Maybe Sky had something to do with that as well and Ozzy can blame him there too).