Centerball...haters gonna hate

I don't find side spin to be a net advantage on these shots (not a gearing cut shot advocate).

I'm not sure I believe you (given my assumption that you're an advanced player).
Sorry about that.

Given my specific example where I stated the shot "requires the CB to travel along the tangent line for position on the next shot", would you really still hit the CB perfectly on the center (vertical) axis, and adjust for the amount of throw you think you would get? I'd be surprised if you would.
Color you surprised. :)

...we should talk about the amount of throw with a stunned CB with no side spin. The variable becomes a non-issue if you successful apply the right amount of gearing english on the shot.
A stunned CB with gearing side spin (like a straight shot with no side spin) is the most sensitive to throw from unintentional spin errors. A stunned CB without side spin is usually less sensitive (for cut shots). I find it easier to learn and hit the aim corrections with no side spin than to learn and hit the perfect gearing side spin plus perfect squerve correction for each cut angle.

And for professionals players, they can do this and they do.
I don't put much stock in what pros do. They often do "wrong" things that are assumed to be "right" because they do them so well. To be sure, I don't know which side of this question the science comes down on (if there is a side) - just making a general comment.

pj
chgo
 
:thumbup:

I agree...except for the part about getting the CB to go where you want. That is one of the main reasons to select english over a center hit.

Only matters if the cb contacts a rail.


I can only form the opinion that Patrick Johnson is expressing his opinion & that of some others based on his & their playing experience & not for the likes of many upper level players that have mastered english such as Keith McCready or Mike Sigel who hit nearly every shot with outside english or CJ Wiley & others who came to hit nearly every shot with an off center inside hit.

Of course it's his opinion, but you dismiss the fact that his opinion is based on fact. Why compare yourself to Sigel or McCready? Yes, they have english mastered, but you and most others do not. So, what is the point of constantly using something that you have not mastered, and probably never will master to equal their level, when you could just as well be using something else that could improve your game much faster?

There are reasons that top players chose to hit most of their shots off center. Could they hit shots with center? Yes, but there are reasons that these top players CHOSE to hit the predominant number of their shots with an off center hit.
You totally dismiss the fact that the pros, which are less than 1% of all players, have something you do not have. They have the mental ability to quickly learn and duplicate what they want to happen without knowing exactly what they are doing. Their subconscious has connections we don't have.

Because of that, they are able to mentally automatically compensate for stroke errors and hits on the cb that are a little off. And, many, without realizing it, are actually close to the pivot point of their cue without ever knowing what a cue pivot point is.

Plus, you are only naming a few pros that predominantly use english. Most pros use as little english as possible. Why dismiss them?


I do not understand PJ's opinion regarding the subject except that yes there are more scientific parameters that come into play when hitting the ball off center, but... one does not play pool with a science book in their subconscious mind, or at least I think most don't, at least not the better players. The subconscious mind is an amazing entity if one can get their conscious mind out it's way. Some are more adept at doing this than others. Perhaps those that have trouble doing so have an intellectual ego too big to allow it.

No, the best players do not play with a science book in their hands. They don't need to. They are already doing what science says to do. You dismiss the science as if not knowing it makes the science go away. It doesn't. It's still there on each and every shot, whether you know it or not.

The subconscious mind can only do what is put into it. Nothing more. If you haven't already discovered the scientific principles behind pool by experimenting, it's not going to automatically appear on it's own. However, you can train the right way and put those experiences into your subconscious so they can later be recalled. The fastest way to do this, is for someone to show you what those principles are. Yet, here you and others are saying that it is not a good thing to add info to your subconscious mind. Doesn't make a bit of sense.

Naturally, all of the above are just my opinions, as are most posts in this forum.

Best Wishes.

PS I do not understand what seems to be a rather large contingency that seems to want to scare everyone off learning & playing with english. Did Mosconi not say after expressing the importance of knowing how to pocket balls with center that one is NOT a complete player until one also learns & uses english?
Either you need to re-read, or you are just making this up. There is NO contingency, let alone a large one, that is trying to scare anyone off of using english. There are several here, myself included, stating that one should strive to stay near the center of the cb. That is far, far different than what you just said. You often claim Pat and I are being disingenuous, well, that is exactly what you are doing here. You are just making false claims to bolster your opinion.

PSS There are many styles of play but to break them down into 3 basic types:

1. Those that play only on the vertical axis or at least try to hit only the infinitely small center line.

2. Those that play mainly on the vertical axis & will use english when needed for a reason determined by them, so when they want to do so.

3. Those that play hitting most of their shots with an off center hit for reason(s) chosen by them.

One can play at a high level with ALL three of these styles of play. That said, I know of no one at the very upper levels that can not use an off center hit to their advantage when the opportunity arises.

Again, all of the above are merely my opinions as are most posts in these forums.

Who said the top players can not use english to their advantage? Oh, that's right, no one but those trying to bolster their opinions on not using center ball as much as possible.
 
Who said the top players can not use english to their advantage? Oh, that's right, no one but those trying to bolster their opinions on not using center ball as much as possible.

How have you been, Neil?

How was your vacation. I enjoyed mine. It seems you were not capable of learning from Mr. Wilson. Perhaps he needs to sign you up for another lesson.

Just so you know, I did not read one blue word of your post as your long history of misquoting, twisting, distorting & what seems to be either a reading comprehension issue or some other issue precedes you & was evidently displayed in the main body of your post.

Have a nice day.:wink:
 
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I think it just makes the same squirt correction less obvious (and less accurate).

pj
chgo
Hi PJ,
I've an inkling (such a weird word), based partly on some semi-rigorous experimentation, but mostly semi-subjective experience, that swiping is almost indistinguishable from pure pivot, then straight cueing, in most circumstances.

I look forward to either myself or someone else making some solid props and doing some good testing to establish some numbers on how swiping versus pivoting with straight cueing influences aim when shooting.

Colin
 
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Inkling is a weird word. I thought it might pertain to traces of ink on a page or something, but here it is-obsolete: inkle to hint ( Middle English inklen) + -ing1; akin to Old English: inca suspicion.
Anyway I'm enjoying everyone's posts and look forward to reading further.
 
When you absolutely have to is different...

What I mostly hear from others (and agree with) is that side spin should be used judiciously, only when and as much as needed. I don't call that "avoiding" it - maybe there's a semantic difference.

pj <- use too much side spin
chgo

When you absolutely have to and as much as necessary is different than using it properly.

What people have been saying is that they try to stay on the center axis as much as possible and IMO that's wrong thinking.

As I've stated, once you become proficient and comfortable using side spin regularly, it changes what shots you can do.

On Tuesday night in a tenball tourney, I ran out to the seven but it was right in front of the nine. I could see the whole ball but not enough of it to cut it into the corner. I used outside and hit it medium soft and threw it into the pocket and ran out.

My opponent said "I didn't think you could cut that seven in from there". I said "I couldn't"...

If you don't learn those things and practice regularly how to do them, you're limiting yourself.

Most people would've played the stop safe on that shot but then you're giving control of the table back to your opponent which at higher levels is rarely the best thing when other options are available.

Jaden
 
you're showing your ignorance here.

What many don't realize also, is that aside from changing the actual contact point on the ob, english does nothing for position after contact with the ob until a rail is contacted. Unless you are using a masse' shot.

IT ABSOLUTELY DOES...I use side spin more often to change rebound angle on a slight draw on an angled shot into the side, than I do to spin off a rail...

This is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. You don't even know what all side spin can be used for and you're avoiding it. You won't learn if you avoid something.

Jaden
 
When you absolutely have to and as much as necessary is different than using it properly.

What people have been saying is that they try to stay on the center axis as much as possible and IMO that's wrong thinking.

As I've stated, once you become proficient and comfortable using side spin regularly, it changes what shots you can do.

On Tuesday night in a tenball tourney, I ran out to the seven but it was right in front of the nine. I could see the whole ball but not enough of it to cut it into the corner. I used outside and hit it medium soft and threw it into the pocket and ran out.

My opponent said "I didn't think you could cut that seven in from there". I said "I couldn't"...

If you don't learn those things and practice regularly how to do them, you're limiting yourself.

Most people would've played the stop safe on that shot but then you're giving control of the table back to your opponent which at higher levels is rarely the best thing when other options are available.

Jaden

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I could not green rep you again yet.

Best Wishes.
 
IT ABSOLUTELY DOES...I use side spin more often to change rebound angle on a slight draw on an angled shot into the side, than I do to spin off a rail...

This is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. You don't even know what all side spin can be used for and you're avoiding it. You won't learn if you avoid something.

Jaden

Acutally, I do know what it can do. If you are using english, your contact point on the ob changes. That changes the tangent line and subsequent draw and follow lines. But, once contact is made, the english does not change the line the cb goes down until it hits a rail. This has been proven beyond doubt.

By the way, I don't avoid using english at all. I am quite adept at using it. I just prefer not to use it when there is no need to use it. I have shot off many racks of 9 ball and never once had to use english. Some racks, might need english on half the shots. It all depends on what one is trying to accomplish and what routes are available. ( I do play at an high advanced / low shortstop level)
 
IT ABSOLUTELY DOES...I use side spin more often to change rebound angle on a slight draw on an angled shot into the side, than I do to spin off a rail...

This is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. You don't even know what all side spin can be used for and you're avoiding it. You won't learn if you avoid something.

Jaden

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I think some think that english is only 3:00 & 9:00. Then when one talks about combined english, say 4:30 or 7:30, they want to break it down into the individual components & say that the same thing could be done just using the vertical axis, BUT the CB path is then different.

Too many want to say you don't know what you don't know, when it is they that should be looking in the mirror when they say it.

Best Wishes.
 
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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I think some think that english is only 3:00 & 9:00. Then when one talks about combine english, say 4:30 or 7:30, they want to break it down into the individual components & say that the same thing cold be done just using the vertical axis, BUT the CB path is then different.

Too many want to say you don't know what you don't know, when it is they that should be looking in the mirror when they say it.

Best Wishes.

Think it all you want, but you are the only one thinking it. Funny how Dr. Dave, Pat, Colin, Randy G., Scott, myself, ect. have experiments and video and physics backing up what we say, and you have........your opinion, based on....your opinion.
 
You said...

Acutally, I do know what it can do. If you are using english, your contact point on the ob changes. That changes the tangent line and subsequent draw and follow lines. But, once contact is made, the english does not change the line the cb goes down until it hits a rail. This has been proven beyond doubt.

By the way, I don't avoid using english at all. I am quite adept at using it. I just prefer not to use it when there is no need to use it. I have shot off many racks of 9 ball and never once had to use english. Some racks, might need english on half the shots. It all depends on what one is trying to accomplish and what routes are available. ( I do play at an high advanced / low shortstop level)

You said it doesn't make a difference until it hits a rail...That's NOT true.

Whether it's the side spin allowing the CB to stay on the OB longer or it's a different CP doesn't make a difference, it's the side spin that allows you to still pot the ball and change the rebound angle when it draws back.

Knowing those shots and being able to consistently execute them completely changes the game and gives you many more options when there are impeding balls or scratch angles or whatever.

Jaden
 
To me (my opinion) everyone should learn to use english ASAP in their development.

Once learned, it will be & is up to the individual how often they choose to use it as will be the criteria for them making the decision.

If one does not learn how to use english then that will not be a tool in their tool box.

I think it is rather obvious that the more proficient one is with the use of english they will more readily go to it IF they see that doing so is an advantage in some form or another.

If one is apprehensive regarding their abilities with english they will more readily 'avoid' using it when perhaps it might be the 'right' thing to do.

That decision will always be subjectively based.

It just seems to me (my opinion) that on one side things are being said that ultimately might scare &/or discourage some from even attempting to learn how & then when to use english.

Then on the other side it is being encouraged to learn to use english & leave the how often & when to the individual.

I would rather be encouraging in expanding one's ability than discouraging.

Best Wishes to ALL.

PS Putting TOI in one's tool box is also a good thing... to me... in my opinion.
 
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You said it doesn't make a difference until it hits a rail...That's NOT true.

Whether it's the side spin allowing the CB to stay on the OB longer or it's a different CP doesn't make a difference, it's the side spin that allows you to still pot the ball and change the rebound angle when it draws back.

Knowing those shots and being able to consistently execute them completely changes the game and gives you many more options when there are impeding balls or scratch angles or whatever.

Jaden

I also clearly stated that it doesn't make a difference AFTER contact with the ob. I also stated that using english will alter the contact point, thereby changing the angle off the ob creating a new tangent line. Why are you so insistent on leaving that part out? I'll say it again, AFTER the cb leaves the ob, english has no effect until you hit a rail. If you think that is wrong, prove it, don't just say it. My proof is in Dr. Dave's videos and many instructional materials.
 
I also clearly stated that it doesn't make a difference AFTER contact with the ob. I also stated that using english will alter the contact point, thereby changing the angle off the ob creating a new tangent line. Why are you so insistent on leaving that part out? I'll say it again, AFTER the cb leaves the ob, english has no effect until you hit a rail. If you think that is wrong, prove it, don't just say it. My proof is in Dr. Dave's videos and many instructional materials.

That is true (for most shots), but pretty pointless IMO. Also you are forgetting that there is such a thing as after contact massè. I only mention that because a lot of people on here love this kind of nit picking.

The point of using english on a no rail shot, is precisely to change the tangent line. You can make balls that you can't see quite enough of using only center ball, you can get a tighter line on your draw etc, etc. The point is that english is helpful, even on shots where no rail is contacted. That the cueball (unless a masse is used) stays on the tangent line, or the curved line created by draw/follow is true, but the important thing is that the tangent line was changed to begin with!
 
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You said it doesn't make a difference until it hits a rail...That's NOT true.

Whether it's the side spin allowing the CB to stay on the OB longer or it's a different CP doesn't make a difference, it's the side spin that allows you to still pot the ball and change the rebound angle when it draws back.

Knowing those shots and being able to consistently execute them completely changes the game and gives you many more options when there are impeding balls or scratch angles or whatever.

Jaden

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I leave it to you but you're...:banghead:
 
That is true (for most shots), but pretty pointless IMO. Also you are forgetting that there is such a thing as after contact massè. I only mention that because a lot of people on here love this kind of nit picking.

The point of using english on a no rail shot, is precisely to change the tangent line. You can make balls that you can't see quite enough of using only center ball, you can get a tighter line on your draw etc, etc. The point is that english is helpful, even on shots where no rail is contacted. That the cueball (unless a masse is used) stays on the tangent line is true, but the important thing is that the tangent line was changed to begin with!

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

It's like when some say that there is no reason or point to cheat a pocket to one side on the other.

Best Wishes.
 
you were saying so...

I also clearly stated that it doesn't make a difference AFTER contact with the ob. I also stated that using english will alter the contact point, thereby changing the angle off the ob creating a new tangent line. Why are you so insistent on leaving that part out? I'll say it again, AFTER the cb leaves the ob, english has no effect until you hit a rail. If you think that is wrong, prove it, don't just say it. My proof is in Dr. Dave's videos and many instructional materials.

You were saying so under the context of it not being worth anything to use it if not contacting a rail.

At least that was what I took from your original post. I merely pointed out that that is NOT the case, and that side spin is effective to use for various reasons on almost any shot on the table.

Jaden
 
You were saying so under the context of it not being worth anything to use it if not contacting a rail.

At least that was what I took from your original post. I merely pointed out that that is NOT the case, and that side spin is effective to use for various reasons on almost any shot on the table.

Jaden

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
I was anxious to see how the OP would respond after hearing everyone say that center ball referred to the vertical axis. Crickets is what I expected. Crickets is what I got.


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