Centerball...haters gonna hate

[Jaden]

The simple fact of the matter is this...

We come from different starting points on the journey. I started using english when I was 13 only a few weeks after being introduced to the game. I'll be 62 later this week. I use either some form of english or TOI on nearly every shot unless the shot & shape can not be done with english & the shot 'requires' staying on the center vertical line.

As a 13 year old I was not afraid. I later took Physics in H.S. & College. I think I am thankful I learned to use english before I learned physics. However I still play the game & do not Physics Text Book the game.

I've said it before but if I had to stay on the center line I would probably quit the game. I often wonder when I hear people that are so frustrated that they are considering quitting the game & they do not use english.

I think you are somewhat correct about the misunderstanding of what individuals 'mean' to say. That said, language is all that we have & especially in a text only format. Just like in pool, some are better than others when it comes to using the 'English' language.

When I say that I use english on nearly every shot, some might think that I am hitting at 3:00 & 9:00 on all of those shots & that could not be further from the truth. In fact, I almost never hit at those locations, but am doing so more now that I am playing some one pocket.

Best Wishes.

the simple fact is this. Once you get to a point that you're just as comfortable using three tips of inside follow on an 8 foot shot as you are shooting a two foot stop shot, there really aren't many, if any, shots that you can't improve your leave by using some type of English...

It could be changing the rebound angle on a draw cut shot, or speeding up the ob and slowing down the cb, or vice versa. It could be minimizing the chance of hooking yourself by using one rail inside position as opposed to three rail natural position, or using outside draw to go three rails instead of natural follow to go one rail.

Regardless of the situation almost every shot can be improved with side spin, IF you are just as comfortable using side spin as not.

Of course, you WON'T get as comfortable using it if you don't ever use it.

IMO, if you are avoiding side spin once you are maxed out skill wise WHILE AVOIDING it, then you either don't care about improving or are happy being less skillful than you could otherwise be.

Jaden

 

[ENGLISH!]

the simple fact is this. Once you get to a point that you're just as comfortable using three tips of inside follow on an 8 foot shot as you are shooting a two foot stop shot, there really aren't many, if any, shots that you can't improve your leave by using some type of English...

It could be changing the rebound angle on a draw cut shot, or speeding up the ob and slowing down the cb, or vice versa. It could be minimizing the chance of hooking yourself by using one rail inside position as opposed to three rail natural position, or using outside draw to go three rails instead of natural follow to go one rail.

Regardless of the situation almost every shot can be improved with side spin, IF you are just as comfortable using side spin as not.

Of course, you WON'T get as comfortable using it if you don't ever use it.

IMO, if you are avoiding side spin once you are maxed out skill wise WHILE AVOIDING it, then you either don't care about improving or are happy being less skillful than you could otherwise be.

Jaden

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Agreed. That said, I've found much value in 'TOI' too.

Best Wishes.

 

[Straightpool_99]

the simple fact is this. Once you get to a point that you're just as comfortable using three tips of inside follow on an 8 foot shot as you are shooting a two foot stop shot, there really aren't many, if any, shots that you can't improve your leave by using some type of English...

It could be changing the rebound angle on a draw cut shot, or speeding up the ob and slowing down the cb, or vice versa. It could be minimizing the chance of hooking yourself by using one rail inside position as opposed to three rail natural position, or using outside draw to go three rails instead of natural follow to go one rail.

Regardless of the situation almost every shot can be improved with side spin, IF you are just as comfortable using side spin as not.

Of course, you WON'T get as comfortable using it if you don't ever use it.

IMO, if you are avoiding side spin once you are maxed out skill wise WHILE AVOIDING it, then you either don't care about improving or are happy being less skillful than you could otherwise be.

Jaden

You put it better than I ever could:thumbup:. Too bad it is wasted on this forum. Sometimes I wonder if the people on here play the game at all?

 

[Neil]

the simple fact is this. Once you get to a point that you're just as comfortable using three tips of inside follow on an 8 foot shot as you are shooting a two foot stop shot, there really aren't many, if any, shots that you can't improve your leave by using some type of English...

It could be changing the rebound angle on a draw cut shot, or speeding up the ob and slowing down the cb, or vice versa. It could be minimizing the chance of hooking yourself by using one rail inside position as opposed to three rail natural position, or using outside draw to go three rails instead of natural follow to go one rail.

Regardless of the situation almost every shot can be improved with side spin, IF you are just as comfortable using side spin as not.

Of course, you WON'T get as comfortable using it if you don't ever use it.

IMO, if you are avoiding side spin once you are maxed out skill wise WHILE AVOIDING it, then you either don't care about improving or are happy being less skillful than you could otherwise be.

Jaden

That part in red, I totally disagree with. Center axis is much, much, more than just the tangent line. I have found over the years that it is much better to try and stay on the center axis, and when english is required, very, very seldom do I need more than 3mm (one tip) of english. But, that does not mean that I can't successfully use all the way out to the miscue limit or masse' if I need to.

 

[jburkm002]

I know there have been test with one player showing different results using various cues or shafts? Has anyone done a test with one cue and various shooters? I think that could be more telling. May be why some payers use more center, while other use more side spin. Set up a long straight in shot. Use side spin and see if you can make the ball consistently. If you cant, ask a better player to play the same shot using your cue and theirs. Could be your stroke or cue.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...if you are avoiding side spin...

What I mostly hear from others (and agree with) is that side spin should be used judiciously, only when and as much as needed. I don't call that "avoiding" it - maybe there's a semantic difference.

pj <- use too much side spin
chgo

 

[Masirib5]

So the OP says haters gonna hate? WTF does that mean? Meaning that people hate because they might have an opposing point of view?

Trying to deflect any criticism people may have?

BS

--Jeff

 

[Colin Colenso]

I know there have been test with one player showing different results using various cues or shafts? Has anyone done a test with one cue and various shooters? I think that could be more telling. May be why some payers use more center, while other use more side spin. Set up a long straight in shot. Use side spin and see if you can make the ball consistently. If you cant, ask a better player to play the same shot using your cue and theirs. Could be your stroke or cue.

Some players tend to swipe across the CB face when applying english and this can have the effect of reducing the effect of squirt, or squerve more accurately, particularly on slower shots.

But generally speaking, the stroke or the stroker has negligible influence on determining squirt. Offset and tip end mass are the variables at play.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Some players tend to swipe across the CB face when applying english and this can have the effect of reducing the effect of squirt

I think it just makes the same squirt correction less obvious (and less accurate).

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If one cannot control the degree of side spin one is using, then deflection, swerve, and throw can certainly be considered a burden to one's game. In this case, one should practice until they"re able to apply the correct degree of side spin. They'll no longer be wary.

Even if you hit the CB exactly where you want every time, side spin introduces variables that make accuracy more difficult than centerball. You can get very skilled with it, but you can never make it as consistently accurate - that's the "burden".

pj
chgo

 

[jsp]

Even if you hit the CB exactly where you want every time, side spin introduces variables that make accuracy more difficult than centerball. You can get very skilled with it, but you can never make it as consistently accurate - that's the "burden".

I agree with this, if you're specifically talking about the accuracy of where you want the CB to go.

However, if you're talking about the accuracy of where you want the OB to go, then for advanced players this extra "burden" is generally worth it, simply due to the effects of throw.

When faced with a 30-degree cut shot that requires the CB to travel along the tangent line for position on the next shot, I can't imagine any professional shooting the shot with strictly center-ball. Many amateurs may play the CB center-ball and deliver the CB exactly where they want it to contact the OB, but still miss the shot badly because of their inexperience with throw.

 

[Drop The Rock]

the simple fact is this. Once you get to a point that you're just as comfortable using three tips of inside follow on an 8 foot shot as you are shooting a two foot stop shot, there really aren't many, if any, shots that you can't improve your leave by using some type of English...

It could be changing the rebound angle on a draw cut shot, or speeding up the ob and slowing down the cb, or vice versa. It could be minimizing the chance of hooking yourself by using one rail inside position as opposed to three rail natural position, or using outside draw to go three rails instead of natural follow to go one rail.

Regardless of the situation almost every shot can be improved with side spin, IF you are just as comfortable using side spin as not.

Of course, you WON'T get as comfortable using it if you don't ever use it.

IMO, if you are avoiding side spin once you are maxed out skill wise WHILE AVOIDING it, then you either don't care about improving or are happy being less skillful than you could otherwise be.

Jaden

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Agreed. That said, I've found much value in 'TOI' too.

Best Wishes.

You put it better than I ever could:thumbup:. Too bad it is wasted on this forum. Sometimes I wonder if the people on here play the game at all?

That part in red, I totally disagree with. Center axis is much, much, more than just the tangent line. I have found over the years that it is much better to try and stay on the center axis, and when english is required, very, very seldom do I need more than 3mm (one tip) of english. But, that does not mean that I can't successfully use all the way out to the miscue limit or masse' if I need to.

Center axis preference means using english when necessary. Necessary means "Oh I need a little spin here" not "IM NOT USING SPIN BECAUSE ITS THE DEVIL< OH WAIT I HAVE TO BECAUSE IM OUT OF LINE" There is a reason most pros stay close to the center and will opt of 1 tip where most amateurs will opt for two. The problem is that there is some serious misinterpretation here lol.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...if you're talking about the accuracy of where you want the OB to go, then for advanced players this extra "burden" is generally worth it

I'd say it's even more often worth it in order to get the CB where you want it to go for shape.

When faced with a 30-degree cut shot that requires the CB to travel along the tangent line for position on the next shot, I can't imagine any professional shooting the shot with strictly center-ball.

You must mean with a sliding CB...? Follow or draw helps reduce throw, but I don't find side spin to be a net advantage on these shots (not a gearing cut shot advocate).

pj
chgo

 

[Drop The Rock]

So the OP says haters gonna hate? WTF does that mean? Meaning that people hate because they might have an opposing point of view?

Trying to deflect any criticism people may have?

BS

--Jeff

OP got given the business on this one

 

[Neil]

What many don't realize also, is that aside from changing the actual contact point on the ob, english does nothing for position after contact with the ob until a rail is contacted. Unless you are using a masse' shot.

 

[Spimp13]

OP got given the business on this one

Useless fun fact for the day. OP's join date is January of this year and has created 101 threads in about 8 months.

 

[Dockter]

Like the thread or not, there is some great information in here. I've learned a bit thanks to a couple great guys in here.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I agree with this, if you're specifically talking about the accuracy of where you want the CB to go.

However, if you're talking about the accuracy of where you want the OB to go, then for advanced players this extra "burden" is generally worth it, simply due to the effects of throw.

When faced with a 30-degree cut shot that requires the CB to travel along the tangent line for position on the next shot, I can't imagine any professional shooting the shot with strictly center-ball. Many amateurs may play the CB center-ball and deliver the CB exactly where they want it to contact the OB, but still miss the shot badly because of their inexperience with throw.

:thumbup:

I agree...except for the part about getting the CB to go where you want. That is one of the main reasons to select english over a center hit.

I can only form the opinion that Patrick Johnson is expressing his opinion & that of some others based on his & their playing experience & not for the likes of many upper level players that have mastered english such as Keith McCready or Mike Sigel who hit nearly every shot with outside english or CJ Wiley & others who came to hit nearly every shot with an off center inside hit.

There are reasons that top players chose to hit most of their shots off center. Could they hit shots with center? Yes, but there are reasons that these top players CHOSE to hit the predominant number of their shots with an off center hit.

I do not understand PJ's opinion regarding the subject except that yes there are more scientific parameters that come into play when hitting the ball off center, but... one does not play pool with a science book in their subconscious mind, or at least I think most don't, at least not the better players. The subconscious mind is an amazing entity if one can get their conscious mind out it's way. Some are more adept at doing this than others. Perhaps those that have trouble doing so have an intellectual ego too big to allow it.

Naturally, all of the above are just my opinions, as are most posts in this forum.

Best Wishes.

PS I do not understand what seems to be a rather large contingency that seems to want to scare everyone off learning & playing with english. Did Mosconi not say after expressing the importance of knowing how to pocket balls with center that one is NOT a complete player until one also learns & uses english?

PSS There are many styles of play but to break them down into 3 basic types:

1. Those that play only on the vertical axis or at least try to hit only the infinitely small center line.

2. Those that play mainly on the vertical axis & will use english when needed for a reason determined by them, so when they want to do so.

3. Those that play hitting most of their shots with an off center hit for reason(s) chosen by them.

One can play at a high level with ALL three of these styles of play. That said, I know of no one at the very upper levels that can not use an off center hit to their advantage when the opportunity arises.

Again, all of the above are merely my opinions as are most posts in these forums.

 

[jsp]

You must mean with a sliding CB...?

Yes.

Follow or draw helps reduce throw...

Understood.

...but I don't find side spin to be a net advantage on these shots (not a gearing cut shot advocate).

I'm not sure I believe you (given my assumption that you're an advanced player).

Given my specific example where I stated the shot "requires the CB to travel along the tangent line for position on the next shot", would you really still hit the CB perfectly on the center (vertical) axis, and adjust for the amount of throw you think you would get? I'd be surprised if you would.

If we're talking about unpredictable variables, then we should talk about the amount of throw with a stunned CB with no side spin. The variable becomes a non-issue if you successful apply the right amount of gearing english on the shot. And for professionals players, they can do this and they do.

But I can understand why someone would use straight follow (natural roll) to reduce throw as opposed to using gearing english to cinch shots, but that's not the example I'm talking about.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Center axis preference means using english when necessary. Necessary means "Oh I need a little spin here" not "IM NOT USING SPIN BECAUSE ITS THE DEVIL< OH WAIT I HAVE TO BECAUSE IM OUT OF LINE" There is a reason most pros stay close to the center and will opt of 1 tip where most amateurs will opt for two. The problem is that there is some serious misinterpretation here lol.

There is that word 'most' again.

I don't think there is much misinterpretation here. We only have the language to go by. We may have some misstatement from which an interpretation may seem to be incorrect by the one that misspoke.

That is a problem when trying to communicate in a text only format. Also some read between the lines things that are not there. They assume & that, at time, causes issues. I have been guilty of that at times myself. I have also been correct in what I have read between the lines.

Basically there are those that do not favor hitting off center & there are those that do favor hitting off center.

To each their on. The thing that I see is that those that favor hitting center try to convince others to shy away from using english. While those that favor hitting off center try to convince others to at at least give it a try...you might like it as I(we) have come to do.

To me there is no doubt that knowing how to use english adds an arsenal of tools to one's tool box just as knowing how to use TOI does.

Best Wishes.