Do you use an aiming system or go by feel?

[Ron Swanson]

Yes snooker players have the idea that it's all about "the line of the shot" and that you just see it and should step in on it correctly.

But Steve Davis has made several videos that address aiming and also addresses dominant eye and has a device to show people how to find their dominant eye so as to be able to easier find the line of the shot accurately.

No one here can argue that snooker players are superior shotmakers to pool players in general. But simply making the shot isn't what pool is all about. This is part of the reason no snooker player has ever won the world 9 ball championships during the years when they were granted spots by Barry Hearn in the Matchroom years.

Steve Davis, unlike some here, has tremendous respect for pool and pool players. He seems like a guy with an open mind who would certainly entertain a discussion on alternative methods to sight a shot.

Snooker players haven't won a 9 ball world championship because they haven't spent years mastering the break, nor have they taken it seriously enough to even try. Eliminate the break and make the prize money comparable to snooker and you'll see a different story.

And enough with the steve davis nonsense - he's hardly likely to say any different even if he thinks it, is he?

 

[JoeyInCali]

Darryl Peach won a world 9 after quitting snooker.

 

[Dan White]

I wonder if the combatants in this thread will humor me for a moment. I have a serious question about CTE but I am having trouble getting a serious response to that question. I asked Stan for some help back on page 60-something and got no reply. I know he saw my post because he posted both before and after I did. To me, the question I'm asking is at the heart of whether this is an objective system or not.

So far I've gotten a couple of pm's with half explanations, and no answer to follow up questions.

If Stan isn't interested, will at least one CTE supporter please PUBLICLY explain the answer to my question so that it is out in the open? If any of the CTE critics knows the answer, please post it as well.

Whether there is an answer to this question or not will settle in my mind whether CTE is what it is advertised to be, or just a marketng ploy.

Thanks for your attention, you will be returned to your regular programming...BEEP

This link will take you to another link:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5317584&postcount=954

 

[Cameron Smith]

Yes snooker players have the idea that it's all about "the line of the shot" and that you just see it and should step in on it correctly.

But Steve Davis has made several videos that address aiming and also addresses dominant eye and has a device to show people how to find their dominant eye so as to be able to easier find the line of the shot accurately.

No one here can argue that snooker players are superior shotmakers to pool players in general. But simply making the shot isn't what pool is all about. This is part of the reason no snooker player has ever won the world 9 ball championships during the years when they were granted spots by Barry Hearn in the Matchroom years.

Steve Davis, unlike some here, has tremendous respect for pool and pool players. He seems like a guy with an open mind who would certainly entertain a discussion on alternative methods to sight a shot.

There is some understanding I think that perceiving a straight line is a big help. SightRight got a massive boost I would think with Stuart Bingham winning the world title this year and Cliff Thorburn teaches it in North America.

I haven't had the coaching, but I did try some of the concepts and learned that I am even eyed, even though previous dominant eye tests suggested I should aim with my right eye. I have to say that info, along with providing myself a consistent starting position, has made a big difference in my consistency.

 

[JB Cases]

I have never called Stan a snake oil salesman. If you're going to make that accusation: show me.

The part about potentially crippling a players game stems from the movement of the cue after a player is down in shooting position. Or even the air/body pivots, alignments that may or may not benefit an individual player. Watch the first DVD where Stan demonstrates the changing position of the V of his bridge hand. How on God’s good green Simonis covered Earth do you think that is good for all players?

In all probably the pivot is going to mess with cue delivery. Just ake a close look at the *huge* sideways movement of Stan's cue, hand, forearm, elbow, and bicep when he demonstrates for the use of BHE. None of that is good for a good consistent repeatable and accurate stroke that won’t break down. Sometimes there's pivot, sometimes not; sometimes the body turns, sometimes it does not; and bridge length and the proscribed amount of pivot is all over the place.

Certainly all that supports the case for potentially crippling a player's delivery.

Lou Figueroa

Come on Lou. I am not going back through the thousands of posts on this subject to quote you. In your own biased review you posited that Stan deliberately left out information on his DVD to insure that people had to book personal lessons.

Your stroke is horrible compared to Stan's and no where close to Landon's. Doesn't seem to have crippled them.

John,

You & others just don't get it or it certainly seems that you all don't.

I've sold video surveillance systems. Sometimes video is not even admissible in a court of law. IT IS NOT GOD.

Video can NOT show things or the lack of things that are ABSTRACT in their nature. AND on the subjects of these 'conversations' the results of any subconscious input or 'feel' might only be a single millimeter & such is not discernible in these types of videos.

Tt seems that in the face of logical rational critical thinking that can not be sufficiently combated by the same means, that you & others are pulling at straws.

Best Wishes.

You're right. But when it's the medium we all share we can at least use it as best we can. If someone posts a video where something they agree with is proven, say something by Dr. Dave then NO ONE questions whether Dr. Dave is ACTUALLY doing what he claims to be doing.

Sure you do. Are you going to cover ail rail bets too?

Lou Figueroa

Absolutely. Next time around every penny will be posted in advance. If I could bet $500,000 then that's what I would bet. But we will never play again and you know it. Had we played an ahead set as was my first instinct I have no doubt I would have worked through the emotion and settled down enough to destroy you. But I ran out of time in the dash for the cash. It's ok, I learned my lesson about you and your group. I am still the better player and always will be.

I know the difference between getting beat & losing.

Even when I lose, I compliment my opponent for THEIR play.

When I WIN, I do the same.

Jack Nicklaus is said to be one of the most gracious of Golfers when he did not WIN.

Some understand & some don't.

I complimented Lou on his play. He played some great shots and was very steady. But he didn't beat me, I beat me. You see there is a difference, when I play someone better than me they BEAT me. I get no chance to win. Lou didn't do that and in every game I had plenty of chances to win and threw them away. So sorry if the truth bothers you but the fact is the match is still up for anyone to view it.

How are they going to stop using cte if they dont even know they are using it?:shrug:

CTE users are self-aware and can choose on demand what method of aiming they want to use. Feel players are just stuck with hoping that their guessing skills are good enough.

I guess that wasn't the case when you went on a Barton-like months-long threat to "do the math" and teach us all a lesson we'd never forget. Congratulations - we haven't forgotten.

pj
chgo

The math doesn't matter. People who make fire don't have to know the chemical properties of combustion to make and use fire.

Any time they get called on that stuff, they just pivot away. They had the engineer that was an apa 5 or 6 for years, they have the programmer or whatever that can't figure it out and they'll always have JB. Books, lessons, DVDs and not a single bit of solid evidence to back up the claims. Throwing names out, saying you can't throw names out.. providing no evidence for their claims, but expecting any doubt to be backed up with hard evidence, though that's made impossible by the circus hoop of "if you don't make it, you're doing it wrong."

Hurray for the internet.

I have $1000 per shot to back Stan in a shotmaking contest against you. If CTE is crap then you should easily win the money.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Good point. So WHO is the arbiter here? You? Lou? Pat?

OR

Maybe a guy who did build a championship swing in his son's game. A guy who has two perfect tables in his house and who has trained dozens of players. A guy who is himself a champion and has finished higher in the US Open than any of his critics on here?

I don't know, if it was up to me then I would certainly not want to listen to pool advice from a guy who can't win more than a house tournament, a guy whose claim to fame is winning one state tournament in a state with four people, a couple anons who probably don't even play pool over recognized master instructors.

Again John,

You seem to have missed the point & then go off on an inapplicable tangent tirade.

The point of Mr. Harmon's statement is that we are not from the same cookie cutter & there is more than one way to become a Champion.

To tell, show, or teach one that is at a very high level something just because one believes something may not be the best thing for that high level player.

Mr. Harmon is not set & domineering on what methods might be the best for any individual.

If Mark Wilson were to demand that the Mosconi Team take a 2 day lesson from Stan to learn CTE, it might help some & it might ruin some, at least for a short while, if not forever.

We ARE all individuals.

Best Wishes.

 

[JB Cases]

I wonder if the combatants in this thread will humor me for a moment. I have a serious question about CTE but I am having trouble getting a serious response to that question. I asked Stan for some help back on page 60-something and got no reply. I know he saw my post because he posted both before and after I did. To me, the question I'm asking is at the heart of whether this is an objective system or not.

So far I've gotten a couple of pm's with half explanations, and no answer to follow up questions.

If Stan isn't interested, will at least one CTE supporter please PUBLICLY explain the answer to my question so that it is out in the open? If any of the CTE critics knows the answer, please post it as well.

Whether there is an answer to this question or not will settle in my mind whether CTE is what it is advertised to be, or just a marketng ploy.

Thanks for your attention, you will be returned to your regular programming...BEEP

This link will take you to another link:
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5317584&postcount=954

It's just a marketing ploy. I get a check for $12,500 every month from Stan. Don't try CTE Dan. Don't waste $50 on the DVD, it's gibberish and will cripple your game for life. (sarcasm off)

There is an answer and that answer is that when you USE CTE you find that the same perceptions can work for wildly different looking shots. It's awesome once the CTE student discovers this.

Why does it work that way? I don't know. Amazingly precise subconscious adjustment perhaps when following the CTE steps somehow triggers the subconscious to find the perfect shot line.......whatever it sure feels great when you get down on that "tough" shot and follow the directions and you nail it. Just like I did last night when I banked the eight backwards in the hill/hill game using CTE to aim it. I had no idea IF the shot line was really right but I knew which of the "keys" would absolutely not work so I picked the one I thought most likely to work and the eight split the pocket.

The answer Dan is that the pocket doesn't matter. Sacrilege I know. But really with CTE the shooter takes the line given BASED ON his experience with the perceptions-keys-visuals that he already knows won't work OR ones that he already knows will work.

In other words when practicing the player learns that Edge to A - right sweep works for a type of shot he then owns that shot and can be fairly confident that pretty much all similar shots will work when using Edge to A.

It's not that Stan or me is connecting to the pocket and adjusting. We simply align as instructed and learn what works and what doesn't. As stan said in the video you reference, Edge to B overcuts the shot....when speaking of the severe looking cut from the left side of the table. He knows that already through practice. All of us who use CTE have had WTF moments where we find out that a particular visual that seems like it wouldn't work actually does work for the shot. That's why we learn to trust the line we land on rather than try to second-guess it.

 

[JB Cases]

Again John,

You seem to have missed the point & then go off on an inapplicable tangent tirade.

The point of Mr. Harmon's statement is that we are not from the same cookie cutter & there is more than one way to become a Champion.

To tell, show, or teach one that is at a very high level something just because one believes something may not be the best thing for that high level player.

Mr. Harmon is not set & domineering on what methods might be the best for any individual.

If Mark Wilson were to demand that the Mosconi Team take a 2 day lesson from Stan to learn CTE, it might help some & it might ruin some, at least for a short while, if not forever.

We ARE all individuals.

Best Wishes.

Who is Mr. Harmon and why do I care? No one is FORCING anyone to learn or explore CTE but some are actively trying to STOP people from doing that. Lou for example.

 

[Dan White]

I have $1000 per shot to back Stan in a shotmaking contest against you. If CTE is crap then you should easily win the money.

Well there's the problem, John. Stan only thinks he is using CTE when he's really not... it does go both ways. :thumbup:

 

[cookie man]

Some have and get blown off.

I'm asking for proof of the ridiculous claims(read:lies) that you folks keeping putting out there. Now, address that and we can move on. Until then, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck. Not saying he's ripping people off, but..

I'm going to go play with weed for a few hours. Enjoy not responding to the actual issues.

Give me a claim to work with, or share your weed

 

[cookie man]

Well, it seems that you did not understand my meaning.

TonyTheTiger has worked with it for over a year with no real success & has all but begged for a specific instruction on how to get to see the proper perception for the shot other than, 'just move or rotate until you see it'. Others HAVE said similar things but I can not recall all of their names.

It's not the nature of most to complain in public when they have buyer's remorse. They basically just accept the fact that THEY made a mistake with the purchase.

I took what was a significant enough of a test ride for me to make my own determinations. I'm not going to waste any more of my time & certainly not a year on something that did not nor does not encourage to me to do so.

If I put sour milk in my mouth, I spit it out, I don't drink the whole gallon to make my decision on whether or not it's sour.

Best 2 You, RJ.

Thank you, exactly what i've been saying all along. You took a little glance, decided it was sour and now you are on a mission to destroy.
People complain all the time about things, AGE OF THE INTERNET
I haven't seen a post from tony the tiger ever that i remember, so pm him and get him posting ( i know you will )

 

[lfigueroa]

Come on Lou. I am not going back through the thousands of posts on this subject to quote you. In your own biased review you posited that Stan deliberately left out information on his DVD to insure that people had to book personal lessons.

You've been making that false allegation for years -- that I've called Stan a Snake Oil salesman. And I have said for years: show me. It is a false charge.

And what I said in my review was this: "Which brings me to this: overall, there is a part of me that wants to say that, perhaps, there is some (much) key info kept purposely fuzzy, because there is *no way* you could put this out in the marketplace and expect people -- that had no prior knowledge and understanding of the system -- to succeed. If you want “to believe” after watching this DVD you are almost compelled to contact Stan, because IMO, it certainly does not stand alone as advertised."

BTW, I also said in the same review:

"One last thing: I have no doubt that Stan really and truly believes in what he’s teaching. IOW, I do believe his work on these systems is a sincere effort to further pool knowledge and help the players watching it."

Your stroke is horrible compared to Stan's and no where close to Landon's. Doesn't seem to have crippled them.

My stroke is good enough to run the occasional 100 at 14.1 now and then and relieve you of $10K I'm good with that.

Absolutely. Next time around every penny will be posted in advance. If I could bet $500,000 then that's what I would bet. But we will never play again and you know it. Had we played an ahead set as was my first instinct I have no doubt I would have worked through the emotion and settled down enough to destroy you. But I ran out of time in the dash for the cash. It's ok, I learned my lesson about you and your group. I am still the better player and always will be.

Mike Page awaits your "show money." So goferit, big boy. You proved the last go around you are all bark.

I complimented Lou on his play. He played some great shots and was very steady. But he didn't beat me, I beat me. You see there is a difference, when I play someone better than me they BEAT me. I get no chance to win. Lou didn't do that and in every game I had plenty of chances to win and threw them away. So sorry if the truth bothers you but the fact is the match is still up for anyone to view it.

"This game isn't like football. Nobody pays you for yardage. When you hustle, you keep score real simple. At the end of the game, you count up your money. That's how you find out who's best. It's the only way."
Walter Tevis
The Hustler

CTE users are self-aware and can choose on demand what method of aiming they want to use. Feel players are just stuck with hoping that their guessing skills are good enough.

And THAT is good enough to beat you.

You know, unlike you I haven't watched the video of our match lately. But occasionally I'll take a peek at this photo of me firing in the $10,000 money ball, John. Pumps me up every time ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[Dan White]

There is an answer and that answer is that when you USE CTE you find that the same perceptions can work for wildly different looking shots. It's awesome once the CTE student discovers this.

OK so that's a start. (BTW, you offered to make a video that explains what Stan was doing, but I never saw it).

So the question, in a nutshell, is how can he use edge to A and CTE on the first shot and pocket the ball, and then use the same edge to A and CTE on the third shot and then expect the object ball to go in a different direction? If he were to say, "OK, so now I have a sharper cut because the pocket is over to the left more, so now it looks like I probably need edge to B this time," then I'd at least understand that he is taking pocket location into account.

Boy, this is a fast moving threat. John, you added to your post after I posted my reply. As to your additional text:
You say you are not connecting to the pockets. This makes no sense because Stan says the first shot is a fuller hit than the third shot but he can still use edge to A and CTE visuals to lock in the cue ball. For one, how does he know this if he isn't looking at where the pocket is, and second, and really my main point, is how is he able to send the object ball in a different direction when using the exact same visuals - edge to A and CTE?

 

[cookie man]

RJ,

It seems, to me, that you either really do not understand the issue or you are just being disingenuous.

Best Wishes.

Fallback line from English, we don't understand the issue.
Fallback line from PJ, we don't speak the same language.

 

[cookie man]

I only know of one guy in the greater St. Louis area who said he studied the DVD, sort of got it to work, but in the end decided it wasn't reliable enough so he stopped trying to use it. The funny part is that he said it messed with his normal aiming so much he said it took him two weeks to get "un-CTEd" lol.

Lou Figueroa

And I know a whole bunch in Tampa that swear by it, and that was before i even moved here 4 yrs ago

 

[JB Cases]

Again John,

You seem to have missed the point & then go off on an inapplicable tangent tirade.

The point of Mr. Harmon's statement is that we are not from the same cookie cutter & there is more than one way to become a Champion.

To tell, show, or teach one that is at a very high level something just because one believes something may not be the best thing for that high level player.

Mr. Harmon is not set & domineering on what methods might be the best for any individual.

If Mark Wilson were to demand that the Mosconi Team take a 2 day lesson from Stan to learn CTE, it might help some & it might ruin some, at least for a short while, if not forever.

We ARE all individuals.

Best Wishes.

When did I say that there is only one way to become a champion. Not only have I never said that I made a video where I clearly said in the first five minutes that NO ONE NEEDS AN AIMING SYSTEM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoQcHkU1Dzo&index=4&list=PLSKV5CK_fziXC5F0oQJJ-yV7pAtT334y9

 

[JB Cases]

OK so that's a start. (BTW, you offered to make a video that explains what Stan was doing, but I never saw it).

So the question, in a nutshell, is how can he use edge to A and CTE on the first shot and pocket the ball, and then use the same edge to A and CTE on the third shot and then expect the object ball to go in a different direction? If he were to say, "OK, so now I have a sharper cut because the pocket is over to the left more, so now it looks like I probably need edge to B this time," then I'd at least understand that he is taking pocket location into account.

Dan I am sorry I didn't realize that in order to convince you I had to make a video immediately.

I will run right to the pool room and get on it.

;-) Right after I finish the 50 cases we have on backorder.

 

[Dan White]

Dan I am sorry I didn't realize that in order to convince you I had to make a video immediately.

I will run right to the pool room and get on it.

;-) Right after I finish the 50 cases we have on backorder.

OK, OK, but you said instead of writing a novel you would make a video. You've written two novels in this thread alone since then! :wink:

I don't want you to make a video. I don't think it is necessary. Please just help me understand in plain english what Stan is doing. His video is crystal clear about perceptions up until 6:30 when he goes off the rails. I'm a pretty good learner and I picked up on what he was saying up to that point. I hope you are able to make it more clear than he was. Also, do you agree with me that it isn't explained very well?

 

[JB Cases]

You know, unlike you I haven't watched the video of our match lately. But occasionally I'll take a peek at this photo of me firing in the $10,000 money ball, John. Pumps me up every time ;-)

Lou Figueroa

You should savor it. You did good. I shook your hand and said you played well and you did. Not well enough to beat anyone a smidgen better than me but well enough to make less mistakes than I did.

You never played for that much money in your life and you probably never will again. So I can understand if that is really sweet for you.

You don't hurt me in the least with posts like this because I know why I lost and it wasn't because you were the better player it was because on average I effectively spotted you many balls a game with my poor play.

I gifted you and your corporation 10k and I am ok with that. Doesn't change a thing in what kind of person you really are, and by that I mean not a nice one at all. We will see what happens when I post the challenge for the next match.

 

[JB Cases]

OK, OK, but you said instead of writing a novel you would make a video. You've written two novels in this thread alone since then! :wink:

I don't want you to make a video. I don't think it is necessary. Please just help me understand in plain english what Stan is doing. His video is crystal clear about perceptions up until 6:30 when he goes off the rails. I'm a pretty good learner and I picked up on what he was saying up to that point. I hope you are able to make it more clear than he was. Also, do you agree with me that it isn't explained very well?

I am writing this from my car. Please don't make assumptions about me and what I can and can't do at any particular time.

I gave you as plain of an explanation as I can.

Here I will give you Pat/Lou's version. Stan is subconsciously adjusting to the shot line.