Anyone ever considered losing the lag on purpose?

[acousticsguru]

Serious question, not joking. Feeling old…

Going to a Straight Pool tournament tomorrow, only my second larger tourney since surgery last year, and practiced some tee-off shots from the head rail today, only to find that my eyesight is such that I can roughly tell if I'm hitting an object ball that far away head-on, or to either side, so my make percentage is down to maybe 50% or worse. So I'm wondering if I should avoid making a fool of myself and break-off and let the other guy attack from there?

Alternatively, I could try to get opponents on two fouls first, but the problem with these youngsters is they don't have a clue and will shoot at a white flag and make it. Last time I played in a bigger tourney, I could try to corner-hook my opponent in a foot pocket, leaving the guy seven feet from the stack, and he'd fire the ball in and bust the stack open.

Believe me, it hurts to feel like I'm still taking the balls off the table as well as anyone, but, which is what happened to me in the first round of the K.O. stages last time, lose to a youngster whose pattern play looks hilarious, and who I really feel should be taking lessons with me finding insurance ball patterns and leave himself end patterns and break shots less than five feet away and off-straight, but who will not miss (we're talking about people who will shoot a spot shot in from an almost corner hook with enough speed to go four rails to the other side of the stack for position, and make it look like a hanger…).

Basically, when I break and leave anything whatsoever, what I'm looking at is to be 40 to 50 behind on average (taking into consideration guys like that will get out of line every once in a while, regardless of how straight they're shooting), and trying to beat someone to the shot who, again, is unlikely to ever miss anything sticking out anywhere.

Which makes me think I might as well try and win the lag, because there's little to like about my chances either way?

Ideas?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[acousticsguru]

Just thinking out loud, but what I will do is swallow as many re-racks and 2-point fouls as I need to tighten the thumbscrews on the opening break…

Really curious to hear other Straight Pool lovers' thoughts!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[acousticsguru]

Of course when I go practice a few dozen opening breaks, I made the opening shot (the tee-off) from the head rail every time except once, LOL!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[acousticsguru]

In case anyone's wondering what my musings lead to, all my predictions proved spot-on (should really become a fortune-teller), won my group stage matches and first-round K.O., only to run into the same kid again, won the lag, predictably missed the tee-off shot from the head rail, he runs 42 despite the same hilarious pattern-play, gets out of line (too far, too straight) on his break shot, this time I actually do manage to get to about 70 but again my eyes fail me when I try to squeeze the cue ball by an object ball, one of those situations where I literally can't tell if the ball passes but really don't have a choice, so I shoot (and in my experience, nine times out of ten the ball does pass in these situations, only not this time) and clip it, he runs out, end of story…

Except: feeling old… Sigh!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[alstl]

You will get him next time.

I heard Mike Sigel say he doesn't consider having to break the balls to be a disadvantage but as far as I know he never tried to lose the lag.

 

[Black-Balled]

Good read, David. Thanks for sharing, sounds like I enjoyed it more than you did!
:grin:

 

[acousticsguru]

You will get him next time.

I heard Mike Sigel say he doesn't consider having to break the balls to be a disadvantage but as far as I know he never tried to lose the lag.

Thanks, I'm planning to, or I should say, I want to badly - someone's got to show these kids how this beautiful, beautiful (did I mention beautiful?) game is supposed to be played!

(Seriously, I mean, how would you like it to get beaten by someone who keeps shooting all the wrong shots, where you keep wondering until the last two balls which is going to be the key ball, and how on Earth the guy is going to get on his break ball from there, time and again…? AAARGH!!)

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[mjantti]

I might lose the lag on purpose if I'm really comfortable with the break shot on that particular table, the table is tapped or I know I can get a perfect rack. Also, if I know my opponent has also the break shot in his bag, I can choose to lose the lag on purpose. If the pockets are really tight, I'm not too worried about playing the break shot and leaving something on, as long as I get a good cueball near the head rail. If the table has buckets for pockets, I don't want to lose the lag, ever.

 

[acousticsguru]

I might lose the lag on purpose if I'm really comfortable with the break shot on that particular table, the table is tapped or I know I can get a perfect rack. Also, if I know my opponent has also the break shot in his bag, I can choose to lose the lag on purpose. If the pockets are really tight, I'm not too worried about playing the break shot and leaving something on, as long as I get a good cueball near the head rail. If the table has buckets for pockets, I don't want to lose the lag, ever.

Reflects what I'd usually do as well, however, the situation with these kids (you know them, the ones who participate in the EPC Juniors etc.) is that they don't know Straight Pool and won't do what one expects, with the sole exception that they'll shoot at a white flag and make it. That makes my decision-making process somewhat different, especially taking into account that my eyesight is limited, but that once I'm in and amongst the balls, as I call it, I'm still a threat to be reckoned with.

A perfect break for me no longer consists of leaving a perfect rack again at which my opponent might kick (which the youngsters won't, they wouldn't know what best to leave), as there's the risk of leaving a dead ball. I prefer to leave something long where my opponent can't play safe, but won't shoot because basically, he can only get one and runs out of position. Of course, the kids will attempt to go four rails with the cue ball to get back to the single other ball behind the stack, so I'm cautious with that.

Just giving examples. After all, it's not as if one could precisely predict the outcome of the opening break - if I were able to do that, I'd always want a bad rack where the second-to-last ball of the side row comes out along with the last, and leave them where they double up (a scenario I'm sure you've seen many times). Although, again, there's no guarantee that the kids won't fire at that type of combination from the head rail, regardless of of how ridiculous that may seem to a seasoned Straight Pool player…

Needless to say, all I would have need to do to win this time would have been to run a 100-and-out after the kid ran 42 (the scenario what I expected/predicted), or at least not miss with two balls and a break ball on the table. Easier said than done, of course.

(Edit: since I let the cat out of the bag and you now know which kid I'm referring to, out of the last five times we played I won twice in 8-Ball, losing once in 9-Ball and twice in Straight Pool - but it's really only the latter that's on my mind.)

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[mjantti]

David, don't let the kids with laser guided strokes and bad patterns get under your skin. Running a 100 to win a match without any idea of the game requires quite a lot of recovery shots so I'd say they had earned their victory. I know it's frustrating, I've seen a top player play a secondary break shot banking a loose ball near the long rail in the side bag and drawing the rock through the rack to continue his match-winning inning. It hurt but he made the stupid shot and won. I gladly see them playing stupid shots against me but if they make 'em, there's nothing I can do except shake their hands and tell them good game.

 

[acousticsguru]

David, don't let the kids with laser guided strokes and bad patterns get under your skin. Running a 100 to win a match without any idea of the game requires quite a lot of recovery shots so I'd say they had earned their victory. I know it's frustrating, I've seen a top player play a secondary break shot banking a loose ball near the long rail in the side bag and drawing the rock through the rack to continue his match-winning inning. It hurt but he made the stupid shot and won. I gladly see them playing stupid shots against me but if they make 'em, there's nothing I can do except shake their hands and tell them good game.

Oh good, I'd been expecting some "change of the guard" jokes, but apart from winning/losing, I really feel someone should show them how the game should be played, and unless one beats the crap out of them, they won't listen - you know that as well as I.

But thanks for the encouragement! Of course there's nothing wrong with losing to someone who won't miss. Much less at my age. But for the love of the game, I feel like I still have a point to prove.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[SpiderWebComm]

The break is a disadvantage pure and simple. The bottom line is your opponent will be stepping to the table first to impose his will with either a safe or offensive shot.

If the rack is tapped and super tight, of course you can get a great break. However, the better your break, the greater the odds of the opposite corner ball to wire-up as it comes off the rail and kisses back to the rack.... happens ALL the time. In fact, when I hit the break perfectly and ONLY two balls move (struck ball goes to bottom rail and the opposite corner goes over and back), my heart stops as I stare at the opposite corner ball, hoping to God it doesn't wire-up.

There's way more that can go wrong than well when breaking. Just because you're really good at kissing the CB to the head rail after a break doesn't mean you're at an advantage when your opponent comes to the table.

 

[stevekur1]

Serious question, not joking. Feeling old…

Going to a Straight Pool tournament tomorrow, only my second larger tourney since surgery last year, and practiced some tee-off shots from the head rail today, only to find that my eyesight is such that I can roughly tell if I'm hitting an object ball that far away head-on, or to either side, so my make percentage is down to maybe 50% or worse. So I'm wondering if I should avoid making a fool of myself and break-off and let the other guy attack from there?

Alternatively, I could try to get opponents on two fouls first, but the problem with these youngsters is they don't have a clue and will shoot at a white flag and make it. Last time I played in a bigger tourney, I could try to corner-hook my opponent in a foot pocket, leaving the guy seven feet from the stack, and he'd fire the ball in and bust the stack open.

Believe me, it hurts to feel like I'm still taking the balls off the table as well as anyone, but, which is what happened to me in the first round of the K.O. stages last time, lose to a youngster whose pattern play looks hilarious, and who I really feel should be taking lessons with me finding insurance ball patterns and leave himself end patterns and break shots less than five feet away and off-straight, but who will not miss (we're talking about people who will shoot a spot shot in from an almost corner hook with enough speed to go four rails to the other side of the stack for position, and make it look like a hanger…).

Basically, when I break and leave anything whatsoever, what I'm looking at is to be 40 to 50 behind on average (taking into consideration guys like that will get out of line every once in a while, regardless of how straight they're shooting), and trying to beat someone to the shot who, again, is unlikely to ever miss anything sticking out anywhere.

Which makes me think I might as well try and win the lag, because there's little to like about my chances either way?

Ideas?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

I had worked this strategy many times, and especially in league play knowing the weaknesses and strengths of many players. Most times my strategy worked.

This is why in my league we use the coin flip, in most cases with the lag the better player would usually win the lag at least control the game.

Steve

 

[stevekur1]

The break is a disadvantage pure and simple. The bottom line is your opponent will be stepping to the table first to impose his will with either a safe or offensive shot.

If the rack is tapped and super tight, of course you can get a great break. However, the better your break, the greater the odds of the opposite corner ball to wire-up as it comes off the rail and kisses back to the rack.... happens ALL the time. In fact, when I hit the break perfectly and ONLY two balls move (struck ball goes to bottom rail and the opposite corner goes over and back), my heart stops as I stare at the opposite corner ball, hoping to God it doesn't wire-up.

There's way more that can go wrong than well when breaking. Just because you're really good at kissing the CB to the head rail after a break doesn't mean you're at an advantage when your opponent comes to the table.

Totally agree, but I think the strategy is based on the strength And ability of making that first long straighter shot after the break in a lot of game situations.

Steve

 

[Poolmanis]

I actually did lose my lag on purpose at straight pool Finnish Championship final some years ago.

I did it because i promised to my friends(before tournament) if i am at finals against one player( who win it almost every year) i gonna kick to make first ball 2 rails and middle pocket

It was going in but another ball came from rack to hang that middle pocket and one ball did put it in.. :angry:
I was lucky and my opponent made only 14 from there...

 

[acousticsguru]

I actually did lose my lag on purpose at straight pool Finnish Championship final some years ago.

I did it because i promised to my friends(before tournament) if i am at finals against one player( who win it almost every year) i gonna kick to make first ball 2 rails and middle pocket

It was going in but another ball came from rack to hang that middle pocket and one ball did put it in.. :angry:
I was lucky and my opponent made only 14 from there...

That is hilarious! Guess where, as a teenager, I first saw that shot? Ignore that, you're probably too young to guess: in a Hollywood movie by the title of The Baltimore Bullet, with James Coburn and Bruce Boxleitner. 30 years ago, when I started playing Straight Pool, we went through a phase at the pool hall to try and do that (and other crazy stuff to make a ball out of the stack, at the time on thick wool cloth and without tapping of the balls, so our success was variable). Did you win that year?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLsWnH1jbj0

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[Poolmanis]

That is hilarious! Guess where, as a teenager, I first saw that shot? Ignore that, you're probably too young to guess: in a Hollywood movie by the title of The Baltimore Bullet, with James Coburn and Bruce Boxleitner. 30 years ago, when I started playing Straight Pool, we went through a phase at the pool hall to try and do that (and other crazy stuff to make a ball out of the stack, at the time on thick wool cloth and without tapping of the balls, so our success was variable). Did you win that year?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLsWnH1jbj0

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

Nope. And my rheumatism at back was getting really bad at back then.. So I had to quit playing for about 5 years also.
It was 2007. I did join last year tournament but did not do so well..

Gotta try this year also. It is on next weekend
Mjantti gonna come also 14.1 next weekend?

 

[acousticsguru]

Nope. And my rheumatism at back was getting really bad at back then.. So I had to quit playing for about 5 years also.
It was 2007. I did join last year tournament but did not do so well..

Gotta try this year also. It is on next weekend
Mjantti gonna come also 14.1 next weekend?

Hope you're feeling better now! Envy you guys for the opportunity to play Straight Pool tourneys - we get a couple or so per year at best, apart from the National Championships…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti

 

[mjantti]

Matti, yeah I'm coming.
David, it's the 14.1 Finnish Champs next weekend. Me and Poolmanis both have silver medals in the past, so looking forward trying to make it gold this time

 

[acousticsguru]

Matti, yeah I'm coming.
David, it's the 14.1 Finnish Champs next weekend. Me and Poolmanis both have silver medals in the past, so looking forward trying to make it gold this time

Nice, have fun, guys! :thumbup:

No money in it, so presumably, Mika isn't going to fly in to play on his home turf?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti