Cenntennial, Anniversary, Gold Crown 1, 2, and 3 frames, how flat do think they are

realkingcobra said:
Well for your information MR. Bond, some of us don't happen to care to follow behind that classic 57' Chevy, when the oil smoke coming out of the exhaust chokes you out, matter of fact, the state don't care to much for it either when the Chevy won't pass the emissions test...and therefore won't reissue a new registration;) so on that note, like Mark and I say all the time, just because a table is old, and it's a classic, that don't mean it has to play old, and like shit compared to today's pool tables;)
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You seem to be equating people's love for the classics, with outright stupidity.
Of course the tables ( and cars) made back then are inferior. So people modify and upgrade to modern specs, like the type of work you do.

I guess I don't see what all the hubbub is about
 
realkingcobra said:
Your question to me about how flat are Diamond tables has noting to do with this thread, that's why it was a stupid question and don't deserve an answer. In this thread, I've been talking about inherent problems to the frame design of the pre GC4's, with the same basic frame design and no where did I bring up a Diamond table for comparison...did I? I didn't being up Olhausen, Connelly, Gabriels, Gandy....or any other manufacturer of pool tables either, so your QUESTION was OFF TOPIC, and therefore didn't deserve an answer....got it? I'm not comparing pool tables, I'll let you do that all you want. I'm conversing with those that DO own Gold Crowns, not Diamonds....or any other pool table. ...do you understand now?;)
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The question I asked was how they were pulling down the middle of the slate if the center of the frame was high and crowning. Completely on topic and not a stupid question.
 
Mr. Bond said:
You seem to be equating people's love for the classics, with outright stupidity.
Of course the tables ( and cars) made back then are inferior. So people modify and upgrade to modern specs, like the type of work you do.

I guess I don't see what all the hubbub is about
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Really? Well then that's where we're going to have to disagree then because I have a customer in CT that spent 10K on a fully restored 9ft Centennial, had the table delivered and set up, went to hit balls on it,...and couldn't bank the cue ball 4 rails around the table, and had the Artemis K55 cushions installed on the rails too, as a special request....and he bought the table from one of the most respected refinishes in this business:eek::rolleyes: see, that's where YOU get all mixed up, I don't know of ANYONE in this country that is doing more to the old tables in order to sell them, other than focusing on the cosmetic looks of the table in order to sell it. Making those old Centennial's and Anniversary's play like today's tables do as that's what's being expected of them when they're being bought, is where they fall down in their expectations. Mark Gregory is the only other person I know of that can do both, make the tables look great, as well as play great...and that's where all of you miss the boat. You all actually think that if a table looks great, it must play great too....wrong! That's not my opinion, that's a fact!
 
ElCorazonFrio said:
The question I asked was how they were pulling down the middle of the slate if the center of the frame was high and crowning. Completely on topic and not a stupid question.
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Jeez man, don't you get it, Diamond frames and Gold Crown frames are like apples to oranges....and this thread is not about how the slates are pulled down on a Diamond table in the middle, as it is Diamond has 2 different kinds of frames, whereas Gold Crowns have the same basic frame since it was first designed! But ok, yes Diamond has a system to pull down the center of the slates if needed, it's the same system I use on the Gold Crown frames, I know, I designed the concept in the first place....on a GOLD CROWN!
 
realkingcobra said:
Jeez man, don't you get it, Diamond frames and Gold Crown frames are like apples to oranges....and this thread is not about how the slates are pulled down on a Diamond table in the middle, as it is Diamond has 2 different kinds of frames, whereas Gold Crowns have the same basic frame since it was first designed! But ok, yes Diamond has a system to pull down the center of the slates if needed, it's the same system I use on the Gold Crown frames, I know, I designed the concept in the first place....on a GOLD CROWN!
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Read post #10 in this thread. That is you talking about GC's. That is the post I was asking about. The question is asking for clarification on your claims as to what other mechanics do to GC's.

THE QUESTION IS NOT ABOUT DIAMOND TABLES. THE QUESTION IS ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT GOLD CROWN TABLES AND WHAT OTHER MECHANICS DO TO THEM. THIS IS ON TOPIC AS ON TOPIC GETS. THE QUESTION IS NOT ABOUT DIAMOND TABLES.
 
[QU OTE= pdcue;5337191]---- ------.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" I'm sure I have more experience with the types of cloth used on pool tables than you do"
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Well you statements just happen to prove that you don't

Tho you are pretty good at spouting irrelevant data instead of answering a question.
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Well the people who sold it to me referred to it as "Stevens 100% wool<unbacked>.
The point is it was just as unforgiving to slate imperfections as 860.

AS I suspected, you selectively remember only the tables intended to caters to bangers
while the gazillion places you never saw you choose to pretend never existed.

Dale[/QUOTE]

Dale, I'm going to correct you one last time, because maybe you just don't understand. Stevens 22oz' Super Weave cloth was the best non- worsted wool cloth on the market in its day as far as I'm concerned, but it was not 100% wool, it was a blend of 80/20 wool/nylon....I installed thousands of yards of it...OK? Now, it's speed compared to Simonis 860 can only be in your memory because Simonis 860 didn't exist at that time...OK? Now, yes Stevens did come out with a worsted woolen cloth, but it was short lived because Mali bought Stevens out, the mill then started making their cloth to Mali's, specifications, as did the Warren cloth mill Mali bought out. Simonis came out with the 860 around the mid 90's I think, but don't quote me on that, Greg Sullivan would known that answer to that kick off time better than I would, as he was instrumental in the development of the cloth
 
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iusedtoberich said:
I've read some of the old GC1 installation manuals, and they said the installer was supposed to flatten the top with a jack plane. I might be remembering incorrectly, I read that 10 years ago.

That said, I've always wondered this myself. If the slate is sitting on leveling screws, or wood shims, or playing cards, or Diamond's plastic shims, then why would the frame being level make any difference? Does the slate even touch the wood, when these leveling methods are used?
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The jack plane was used on the antique pool tables as they had a different style of frame. Having a bow in the middle of the frame could throw everything off to the point that the ends of the slates wouldn't even be touching the frame at all, just sitting high on shims. Now as far as using wedges, shims or what ever to level the slates on more modern era frames like Diamonds or Gold Crowns, that's a different story. Only the lowest area of the slates should be shimmed up to match the highest areas of the slates, but the true purpose of shimming the slates is to compensate the imperfections of the frame and it's ability to match up with the flatness of the bottom of the slate therefore creating one level plane on the surface of the slate. There's a lot of circumstances that effect how much shimming has to be done, like frame sag. I've worked on tables that sag 3/4" in the middle of the frame from one on to the other, but the slate still had contact with the frame at the ends. At no point should a slate ever lose contact with the frame entirely, the slates have to have contact somewhere with the frame. But, leveling slates on pool tables today by most table mechanic's....is a lost art, trust me on that, not with the turn & burn jobs being performed today. When I recut the frame to flat, that eliminates a tremendous amount of leveling I have to do, because my first thoughts on the leveling is how is the slates sitting now...that the frame is flat, so I only have minimal adjustments to make for such things as the slates are not the same thickness, they're crowned or sway back, etc...
 
Leveling the slates on GC'S with this frame design is what causes the problems in leveling later on. If the slates are shimmed at the seams on the outside edge of the frame between the slate and frame, increased weight is placed right there on the outside edge of the frame, because the slate is now sitting on a shim instead of the frame, and the shim is focusing the weight it's lifting in one single spot. Over time, the frame cap starts to bend down because there's no support under that frame cap to help disperse the increased weight being placed on it. I've seen frame caps go the other way to, curve upward so that the slate is just sitting right on the outside edge of the frame cap and not to hinges anywhere in the middle...why that is, I have no clue unless the wood had a high moisture content when it was milled, so that once it dried out, that was the direction it curved. Either way, leveling slates is a much easier job if you're not fighting the frame first. What the leveling system allows for is to be able to fine tune the level of the slates as needed because the frames change over time as they adapt to the environment they're in, but it's pain in the but to level a slate when it's screwed down to the frame, slate screws covered with bed cloth and rails bolted down. With this system, the slates can be fine tuned for level just like Diamonds can, and without having to take anything apart first.
 
Not sure if this is relevant to this thread but I am curious and don't see the harm. What are your thoughts on the Kim Steele (sp?) Tables. I remember them being pretty highly regarded back in the day but haven't seen one in many years.
 
realkingcobra said:
Leveling the slates on GC'S with this frame design is what causes the problems in leveling later on. If the slates are shimmed at the seams on the outside edge of the frame between the slate and frame, increased weight is placed right there on the outside edge of the frame, because the slate is now sitting on a shim instead of the frame, and the shim is focusing the weight it's lifting in one single spot. Over time, the frame cap starts to bend down because there's no support under that frame cap to help disperse the increased weight being placed on it. I've seen frame caps go the other way to, curve upward so that the slate is just sitting right on the outside edge of the frame cap and not to hinges anywhere in the middle...why that is, I have no clue unless the wood had a high moisture content when it was milled, so that once it dried out, that was the direction it curved. Either way, leveling slates is a much easier job if you're not fighting the frame first. What the leveling system allows for is to be able to fine tune the level of the slates as needed because the frames change over time as they adapt to the environment they're in, but it's pain in the but to level a slate when it's screwed down to the frame, slate screws covered with bed cloth and rails bolted down. With this system, the slates can be fine tuned for level just like Diamonds can, and without having to take anything apart first.
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Good post. Would have been awesome to start with this.

Sincerely, ecf
 
realkingcobra said:
[QU OTE= pdcue;5337191]---- ------.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" I'm sure I have more experience with the types of cloth used on pool tables than you do"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well you statements just happen to prove that you don't

Tho you are pretty good at spouting irrelevant data instead of answering a question.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Well the people who sold it to me referred to it as "Stevens 100% wool<unbacked>.
The point is it was just as unforgiving to slate imperfections as 860.

AS I suspected, you selectively remember only the tables intended to caters to bangers
while the gazillion places you never saw you choose to pretend never existed.

Dale
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Hey Glen, I had Simonis 860 on all my tables in my pool hall in 91'. Just to add my 2 cents...lol The tooling looks awesome.
 
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PoolTable911 said:
Hey Glen, I had Simonis 860 on all my tables in my pool hall in 91'. Just to add my 2 cents...lol The tooling looks awesome.
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I don't know if it's because I don't remember that far back, or it scares me to, it's just not as clear as I remember it being...:eek:
 
PoolTable911 said:
Hey Glen, I had Simonis 860 on all my tables in my pool hall in 91'. Just to add my 2 cents...lol The tooling looks awesome.
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To be honest Pat, I don't even remember when I did the Simonis cloth training seminar, I just remember doing it sometime in the past:thumbup:
 
BmoreMoney said:
Not sure if this is relevant to this thread but I am curious and don't see the harm. What are your thoughts on the Kim Steele (sp?) Tables. I remember them being pretty highly regarded back in the day but haven't seen one in many years.
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I absolutely will not work on them because of how the rails are designed. Not bad when they're new, but when they've been in commercial use for a while, the cloth stapling area gets destroyed under the rails and in the ends of the rails....really a piss poor design which seriously cuts the usable life down. Then, mounting the pocket liners with screws through the top of the ears of the pocket liners...someone should have designed that little feature a little better too. Then, no training manuals on how to use the slate leveling system was a set up for failure because I've seen slates so bent out of shape on the tables I've looked at....there's now way I'm even going to open that can of worms.
 
Here's the follow up with the slate that was mounted on that Anniversary frame, the 3 levels in the first picture is where they're laid out, then how they read, left, right, and centered. Notice both sides of the slate are low meaning the center is high, or crowned from being mounted to that unlevel frame for so long.

The last 2 pictures are showing the level of the slate after I pulled it down, and I didn't do that with a slate screw

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All 3 of these slates were crowned, high in the middle.
 
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Glen,

It seems to me the table has two design flaws, neither one being the "flatness" or level of the frame as you were calling it.

1. The rigidity of the frame
2. The leveling process of the slate and subsequent clamping down of the slate to the frame via screws causes the slate to bend/twist.

#1 can be addressed by reinforcing the frame as you have shown.

For #2, why don't table manufacturers design the leveling points of the slate and the clamping point of the slate (the screw) to be at the same exact location? This would eliminate twisting/bending of the slate due to the clamping process (IMO). When the clamping location and the leveling location are separated by a distance, the pair form a moment (torque) that twists the slate. Has this been done before in the several hundred years of billiard/pool/snooker tables?

Thanks, Nick.
 
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This is what you need to correctly pull down the centers of the slates.
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It goes together like this.
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Drill and countersink the dead center of the slate and insert the barrel nut. Then connect the althread rod up under the slate passing through the frame. When you tighten the bottom nut, it pulls the slate down, and if you ever move the table the rod can be disconected and left in the frame to be used again when setting the table up again.
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