Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

[KMRUNOUT]

Jump cues are not beneficial as you quote. Not to belittle you John but beneficial in your eyes only because you sell them? Imo jump cues are the biggest joke in pool and surely will be detrimental to this fine sport in the long run. Ban them as soon as possible.

Somewhere you have to add 'kicking skills' to your repertoire as a more serious player instead of having this bandaid/crutch approach such as jumping. You don't think 'finding the ball skills' are needed or essential? I certainly do

Again John as a serious player, I appreciate all that you do for pool ... but this 'jump cue syndrome' - trash it before it really hurts us

I think there are other things that hurt us more. There is a *serious* lack of logic skills in America, and clearly on this forum. I realize that when faced with a well constructed and completely logical argument, the average player wants to go to the short cue, i.e. "you're wrong and therefore you are (insert adjective like stupid, rude, ignorant, uninformed, etc.)" But it actually takes years and great skill to learn how to kick, by, for example, offering a *logical* argument refuting the points you disagree with.

We're in this together. I genuinely hope pool, and America, pull through.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Chalk use is not like using jump cues, using that as an example as a product that makes the game too easy is silly.

Nah. Its a great example that some understand and some don't.

Chalk is what enabled pool to be the game it is rather than rakes shoving balls into holes.

This sure sounds like you are saying "chalk is what enabled pool to be the game it is, rather than the game it was."

Jump cues make pool out to be something less that what it should be.

"What the game should be"? You don't recognize this as completely subjective? What you think the game should be is your own personal opinion.

It's too bad you are missing the chalk analogy. It really sounds from what you and some others have said that you simply don't like the jump shot, but you do like chalk. Many people that have never played pool in their life know what chalk is with respect to pool. It is common knowledge, its been the norm for a long time, and it was probably one of the first pieces of equipment any pool player learns to use. Jump cues are newer, less familiar, and take far more skill to use than chalk. The degree to which chalk makes the game easier is vastly greater than jump cues. The analogy is really pretty sound. Think it through.

I don't know a single player that has ever said chalk should be banned, or bridges or gloves. Or LD shafts.

Why is this relevant? First of all, there's a lot of players out there. There's even more things that can be said. There are more things not said than said. It would be my guess that banning every one of those things have been suggested by *someone*, ever. Probably all the people that opposed chalk are dead. I'm pretty sure some people have been quite outspoken against LD shafts. Regardless, it makes not the slightest difference. Whether or not jump cues are good or bad for the game is not really related to people's opinions of chalk or bridges. The analogy of jump cues (a "recent" technological innovation in pool) to chalk (a technological innovation that was at one time "recent") is also NOT a reason why jump cues are good or bad. Jump cues are good or bad based on the objectives of the game, and how well jump cues satisfy or contradict those objectives. The objectives are a matter of opinion. In any case, the analogy of jump cues to chalk is simply a way of pointing out that there have been many occasions over history in which a new technological innovation presented a potential change to the game. Whether or not any technological innovation satisfies, enhances, or detracts from the objectives of the game is a separate consideration for each case. But the nature of each case is the same. Hence the analogy. It really works like this:
Chalk is a technological innovation that offered a change to the way the game is played.
Jump cues are a technological innovation that offered a change to the way the game is played.

That's it.

It is equally wrong to argue for jump cues because of chalk as it is to argue against them because of chalk. But it is also just as wrong to fail to see the class of things to which these two situations both belong.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Sorry but this fails the logic test. If it were a simple manner of everyone having another tool in their arsenal then the super short and 'kangaroo' jump cues from the 90s would not have been banned. But they were.

Ok...and the logic of this sentence? Are you saying that because a particular reaction to a new situation was made a rule 25 years ago that this somehow "logically" shows why jump cues are bad? What if everyone in the 90's was stupid? Would it still have been a good idea? I mean, do doctors still treat illnesses by bloodletting or balancing the body humors? There was a time when people decided that was the way to do it. But the decisions of people is not what makes them right. In fact, MOST decisions made by people are foolish, illogical, and based in ignorance. This is exponentially for every additional person involved in the decision.

And the reason they were was because they basically made a mockery of pool safety play. Now the new jump cues are doing the same thing. They need to go, period.

Yeah, um...modern safety play makes a mockery of the safety play of the 90's. We should ban Efren Reyes. Ban the Philipines.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Actually, cues with phenolic tips were out before the Bunjee. The Bunjee Jumper might have been the first wildly popular jump cue thanks to my introduction and demonstrations and lessons at the BCA and VNEA nationals but it wasn't the first such cue.

Also, if you give me a lepro I can make it jump almost as well as a phenolic tip. I had at one time over 20 jump cues and about a dozen shafts with different tips on them for testing. I figured out how to modify almost any tip to work well for jumping.

But a super hard tip, phenolic, carbon fiber, thermoset plastic, treated leather...is simply the jump shot equivalent of chalk for everyone, of leather tips for everyone, of consistent rubber rails for everyone, etc....

It essentially gives every player on earth the same amount of POSSIBLE shots. Thus the only difference is in the player's ABILITY to make those shots. Players then ONLY have a slight advantage if they are taller but that advantage is greatly magnified if the shooter is forced to use a full cue. With a jump cue the physical advantage is effectively nullified and it really comes down to personal skill.

A Strickland with a jump cue will ALWAYS be a better jumper than a John Barton with a jump cue. Yes, Barton with a jump cue can make more jump shots than Strickland with a full cue. Just like an APA 3 with a chalked cue would ROB anyone shooting with a mace.

The players in the Mosconi came with some amazing jump shots under pressure. The cue only made the shots possible, the players are the ones that actually made the shots.

Great post. And excellent point about the height of players. I am nearly 6'3" tall. My good friend is a hair under 5' (don't tell her I didn't say 5 feet lol). Anyway, she brings up how I can jump with a full cue, but she has zero shot of doing that. With a jump cue, we both have chance to make really any jump shot. Would I still demolish her in a jumping contest? Yup, I would. Why? Because I'm really good at jumping, and she is just ok at it. The difference has become a skill based difference, rather than an anatomical one. Anyone who claims to value the "finesse" or skill in pool must admit that there is a huge world of finesse and skill in our decision making, risk reward calculations, shot selection, etc. As such, they must logically conclude that if they value the whole "knowledge" aspect of pool, any physical situation that makes the physical game more accessible for everyone should be encouraged. Of course, they can illogically believe whatever they want. As with all things, many many will go that route.

KMRUNOUT

 

[SakuJack]

Even in Mosconi Cup where you had situations of balls near a rail, and instead of kicking 1 or 2 rails and potentially pocketing a ball, players opted to just jump over balls to hit the ball, and hope they got a good outcome.

To be fair, that may have had something to do with the table. New cloth, TV lights, etc., the cue ball can really slide off the cushions and make players lack confidence in their kicking game.

There were some terrible kick shots played at this year's Mosconi. I remember Woodward twice missing the ball completely from fairly straightforward positions. Having seen that, I don't blame other players for reaching for their jump cue when they were unsure.

I'm with Barton here. Jumping well takes skill, just as kicking well does. It adds another dimension to the game, and more importantly, it adds excitement. Watch any even with a crowd; fans like jump shots. Why people continue to want to make pool even less interesting to the public is beyond me.

 

[Grantstew]

You cannot take away jump cues from the Mosconi, one of the highlights in the hilarity every year is the Europeans pushing to a jump shot, Americans handing it back and the Europeans (especially Niels) making the pot with the jump. It's too funny!!!

 

[Drop The Rock]

106 of my posts later, I wish I could have said what you just said in one. Excellent post. Logically sound. Well said. Thread over lol.

KMRUNOUT

This. So many bemoan the jump shot and how easy it is, simply because the pros make it look easy. The jump shot forces higher quality safety play too which is a good thing.

 

[philly]

The game was designed with rails that have diamonds. Let's use those rails for kicking. Jump shots circumvent the use of the table as it was designed. Use the rails to kick. Jump if you want but you are doing yourself a disservice by not gaining knowledge of proper rail use. You will never learn the game of 3 cushion with a jump stick in your hands. Oh that's right. What is 3 cushion? 9 foot table. What's that? Never saw one. I hate the use of jump sticks as you've probably gathered from my other posts. I guess I'm an incurable traditionalist.

 

[pt109]

Seems like a lotta people don't approve of jump sticks..
....I'm one of them.


But sometimes I think people are selling them short.






:killingme:

 

[decent dennis]

Do what is done at our state tournament. Whatever cue you start an inning with you have to finish with. If your opponent hooks you, you go to jump stick and make ball, you must continue shooting with jump stick until you are done.

 

[sjm]

Chalk made pool better, jump cues make it worse.

I'd post in this thread but I wouldn't be able to improve on this.

 

[Dockter]

Do what is done at our state tournament. Whatever cue you start an inning with you have to finish with. If your opponent hooks you, you go to jump stick and make ball, you must continue shooting with jump stick until you are done.

So you guys can't use break cues? I play with a soft tip on most of my cues, this would kill me lol.

I have a jump cue, I use it when I have to. I'm not amazing at potting balls unless they are hangers but can normally get a hit unless they really lock me close and I pretty much suck. The only reason I have a jump cue is because they are allowed and if I didn't have one I would be at an extreme disadvantage. That being said, I'm decent at kicking and banking because I only recently learned to jump and could care less if they removed jump cues. Maybe they can remove phenolic tips while they're at it.

 

[JB Cases]

I'd post in this thread but I wouldn't be able to improve on this.

How on earth does adding a plethora of skill shots make it worse?

Jump shots were so applauded when people started doing them and then when the jump cue added dozens of new possible shots some people act like this demeans the game in some way.

I find it hilarious that anyone could make the statements that jump cues made the game worse when all the evidence clearly points to the contrary.

You have to do everything you would do in a normal shot in addition to figuring out the trajectory of the shot. I.e. more skill involved.

I had to practice a lot to be able to demonstrate how effective a jump cue can be. On demand I jumped into tight spots, I made jump-masse' shots, I showed people how to make short jump shots, long jump shots, jump-banks, etc... No one on the planet can take that skill away from me. For anyone to claim that all those shots are not skilled shots and tell me that it's all cue is simply not a true statement.

It would be the exact same as telling someone that spinning the cue ball is all chalk.

 

[philly]

How on earth does adding a plethora of skill shots make it worse?

Jump shots were so applauded when people started doing them and then when the jump cue added dozens of new possible shots some people act like this demeans the game in some way.

I find it hilarious that anyone could make the statements that jump cues made the game worse when all the evidence clearly points to the contrary.

You have to do everything you would do in a normal shot in addition to figuring out the trajectory of the shot. I.e. more skill involved.

I had to practice a lot to be able to demonstrate how effective a jump cue can be. On demand I jumped into tight spots, I made jump-masse' shots, I showed people how to make short jump shots, long jump shots, jump-banks, etc... No one on the planet can take that skill away from me. For anyone to claim that all those shots are not skilled shots and tell me that it's all cue is simply not a true statement.

It would be the exact same as telling someone that spinning the cue ball is all chalk.

Use a jump cue for long enough and you will forget how to use the rails. The tables you play on do have rails right? They were put there for a purpose and not just for getting shape. I could be wrong but pocket billiards is an evolutionary outgrowth of 3 cushion. We are moving further and further away from the soul of the game with the jump cue and the game is sort of losing it's beauty. JMHO.

 

[sjm]

How on earth does adding a plethora of skill shots make it worse?

By reducing the penalty for position poorly played. If you hook yourself, you shouldn't be able to switch to a three dimensional game.

 

[Johnnyt]

I think Jump cues should be allowed in 14.1, 1-hple and 3 cushion. Johnnyt

 

[Drop The Rock]

By reducing the penalty for position poorly played. If you hook yourself, you shouldn't be able to switch to a three dimensional game.

Technically jumping by shooting into the rail is 3D. Also what do you say to the players who can jump full cue or with a standard break cue? That the specific action of the cue ball leaving the felt is not allowed?

Jump cues also do one thing that many overlook and that is force safety play to be much tighter. Getting close to a ball or frozen is much more important because of jumping. That can be considered a good or bad thing but either way if jump cues allow for sloppy offense, they certainly make defense much tighter.

I wonder how the pros feel about it. Not the pros of yesterday either. Jump cues add to the game, not take away from it. They also make pool more TV presentable. Trick shot/artistic pool is the most watched form of billiards there is. If a kid picks up the game because he saw Venom making a jump shot and everybody said "no jump cues for you ****er!" Then what? Its also good for giving weaker players a chance against stronger ones. Mind you its a very slim chance.

 

[philly]

I think Jump cues should be allowed in 14.1, 1-hple and 3 cushion. Johnnyt

Love to see you use it for those games. Maybe 3 cushion should be called 3 jump because you won't need the rails any longer. LOL. I guess you see my point.

 

[sjm]

Technically jumping by shooting into the rail is 3D. Also what do you say to the players who can jump full cue or with a standard break cue? That the specific action of the cue ball leaving the felt is not allowed?

Jump cues also do one thing that many overlook and that is force safety play to be much tighter. Getting close to a ball or frozen is much more important because of jumping. That can be considered a good or bad thing but either way if jump cues allow for sloppy offense, they certainly make defense much tighter.

I wonder how the pros feel about it. Not the pros of yesterday either. Jump cues add to the game, not take away from it. They also make pool more TV presentable. Trick shot/artistic pool is the most watched form of billiards there is. If a kid picks up the game because he saw Venom making a jump shot and everybody said "no jump cues for you ****er!" Then what? Its also good for giving weaker players a chance against stronger ones. Mind you its a very slim chance.

First of all, in the days where only full cue jumps, you might go a whole event without seeing a jump shot. I'm OK with full cue jumps, though I'd get rid of them, too, if I could.

Why, exactly, was it ever necessary, to make defense more difficult to execute? I don't see that as a positive.

Finally, pool is not more presentable with jump shots, and the jump shot has done absolutely nothing to get pool more programming hours.

 

[philly]

Technically jumping by shooting into the rail is 3D. Also what do you say to the players who can jump full cue or with a standard break cue? That the specific action of the cue ball leaving the felt is not allowed?

Jump cues also do one thing that many overlook and that is force safety play to be much tighter. Getting close to a ball or frozen is much more important because of jumping. That can be considered a good or bad thing but either way if jump cues allow for sloppy offense, they certainly make defense much tighter.

I wonder how the pros feel about it. Not the pros of yesterday either. Jump cues add to the game, not take away from it. They also make pool more TV presentable. Trick shot/artistic pool is the most watched form of billiards there is. If a kid picks up the game because he saw Venom making a jump shot and everybody said "no jump cues for you ****er!" Then what? Its also good for giving weaker players a chance against stronger ones. Mind you its a very slim chance.

I don't know about all that Rock. Why not ask the old timers. I look at trick shots the same way I look at jump shots. They are not pool. Trick shots are just that. They are tricks. Pool when played well is an art. I think Venom once said he is not very good at pool. I could be wrong. Massey is a whole other story. He is good at both. But trick shots are just tricks set up something like dominoes. Anybody can make many trick shots with practice but running racks of 9 ball or a 100 run in 14.1 takes an unbelievable amount of practice.