Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

[SUPERSTAR]

Zuglan is the only one who gets it.
No jump cues allowed in Joss events, including Turning Stone.
Arguably the nicest tournament venue in the country.

Learn how to kick or give up BIH.
End of story.

 

[philly]

Zuglan is the only one who gets it.
No jump cues allowed in Joss events, including Turning Stone.
Arguably the nicest tournament venue in the country.

Learn how to kick or give up BIH.
End of story.

Yes sir. Greenie for you.

 

[Runner]

Using the golf analogy, yes they do ban certain clubs. There were 'square groove' irons that were banned because the golfer could draw the ball back from the far side of the green... you can carry only certain amounts of clubs, some of the oversize drivers are not allowed. Then there's the 'belly' putters, which some pros think shouldn't be allowed.

Any 'C' player can buy a short stick and imitate the jump shots they see... go ahead and put dents in the cloth... they can jump in a day.

Now kicking... that's an art form that takes finesse, years of playing.

I think there was a thread regarding being either a great kicker or jumper, and most of the responses were kicker.

 

[Bbutler]

Using the golf analogy, yes they do ban certain clubs. There were 'square groove' irons that were banned because the golfer could draw the ball back from the far side of the green... you can carry only certain amounts of clubs, some of the oversize drivers are not allowed. Then there's the 'belly' putters, which some pros think shouldn't be allowed.

Any 'C' player can buy a short stick and imitate the jump shots they see... go ahead and put dents in the cloth... they can jump in a day.

Now kicking... that's an art form that takes finesse, years of playing.

I think there was a thread regarding being either a great kicker or jumper, and most of the responses were kicker.

Square grooves, anchored putters, spring effect faces, lighter golf balls, etc. etc. The list of equipment that has banned in golf because it makes the game 'too easy' is quite long and there have been plenty of objections to all of them. But they still got banned.

 

[BasementDweller]

If you are playing 1 foul equals ball in hand then jump cues need to he legal. Jump cues force pros to play lock tight safeties in order to be rewarded. Plus, the jump shot can be an exciting shot to watch.

I say -- l leave it alone. The jump cue is not preventing the growth of the game.

 

[JB Cases]

Zuglan is the only one who gets it.
No jump cues allowed in Joss events, including Turning Stone.
Arguably the nicest tournament venue in the country.

Learn how to kick or give up BIH.
End of story.

So if the jump shot is legal then it's not legal to use a cue designed for that shot? Even if all else is the same, the player has to direct the cue, has to judge the speed, the spin, has to aim etc...

That's like saying ban chalk because it makes using sidespin too easy.

Zuglan has it 100% wrong.

A jump cue is still a cue. Every shot in pool can be played with one AND jump shots.

And the admonition to learn to kick is a red herring. Good players can and do both.

 

[JB Cases]

Every time this comes up in the forums, I hesitate to respond because people get very emotional, almost religious, about this topic. This post may seem like a rant, but I assure you it is not, and it won't upset me one iota if you disagree.

That being said, below are some of my thoughts on jumping and jump cues.

Jumping is easy, kicking is hard
Using a jump cue, with a little training, getting the cue ball airborne is easy. That's where "jumping is easy" ends. Jumping is a skill, just like any other, and it takes work, knowledge, and practice to maximize that skill. Once you learn how to get the ball airborne, you have to learn how to not hit it too hard, how to land it where you want, how to hit it on line, how to pocket balls, and ultimately how to control the cue ball afterwards.

In my local room, I think I am regarded as one of the better practitioners of the jump shot. Why? Because I practice it. I've put in my time to develop the skill. While jumping I have (intentionally) made balls and applied english and spin. I have jump caromed, jump masse'd, jump banked, jump kicked, and jump safetied. I once jumped my own ball in eight-ball: not because I got out of position, but because it was the best way to complete the run out. I've tried (unsuccessfully) to double jump, but I'll get there some day.

I've dart jumped, sidearm jumped, long cue jumped, and rail jumped. I've jumped balls very close and far away. I've jumped into a cluster to strike a specific ball on top. And if you think it was "easy" to get to that skill level, then we'd have to agree to disagree. Even though my "make" percentage is very low, in the grand scheme of things, I've gotten pretty good at it by hard work and effort. And don't forget that developing the skill isn't enough, you also have to have the imagination and the vision to see the shot and the courage to pull the trigger.

I get tired of hearing that "jumping is easy". I love seeing a good jump shot, because I know it's more difficult than a regular shot. It's harder to aim, it's harder to stroke the ball on the proper line, and it's harder to control the cue ball, both before and after the object ball is contacted. The margin for error is much smaller when you add the third dimension. Do you know why the pros jump with such confidence? They practice the jump shot. If it was so easy, they wouldn't need to practice. And yes, they use good equipment. And they have great imaginations. And, let's face it, they're just better at this than we are.

Does kicking require more skill? To achieve the same level of skill, absolutely. I can kick and hit a ball fairly well, and some of the time I can even hit the correct side of the object ball, and sometimes I can control the cue ball afterwards. I applaud anyone who can truly master kicking, especially considering all the mitigating factors between tables: rail/bumper quality, cloth condition and cleanliness, speed, humidity, english, spin, how hard the cue ball was struck, and so on. But the difficulty of kicking in no way alleviates the difficulty of jumping. Both are skills that take time and effort to develop.

Banning the jump shot
Reading all that above, you may think that I would get upset if the jump shot was banned. I would not. As long as the same rules apply to everyone, that's equitable. When I was learning how to play, before jump cues were really a thing, I took lessons from a guy who played on the BCA tour (and owned our local pool hall, where I worked). He found me practicing the jump shot one day (full cue at the time), and told me not to bother because the BCA was going to outlaw the jump shot. 25 years later, here we are.

I do think pool was intended to be played two dimensionally. We don't allow the scoop shot, which is basically an intentional miscue. If we wanted to extend that to say that any action that causes the cue ball to intentionally leave the surface of the table is a foul, then so be it. Until that day comes, however, the jump shot is just another part of the game.

On banning jump cues
Assuming the jump shot is still legal, the problem with banning the jump cue is it's a slippery slope. If you're going to ban the jump cue because it is a "specialty" cue, then you have to ban the break cue as well. It doesn't matter if your justification is to protect your playing tip, it's a cue designed and used for a specialty shot, so the same logic applies. At the very least, you have to ban special break tips. And shafts. And ferrules. While we're at it, we have to ban the bridge and the temporary cue extension. These are specialty pieces of equipment used for specialty shots and specialty situations.

Again, I'm OK if this happens, because the same rules would apply to everyone. Is it realistic? Heck no. But the idea that jump cues are ruining the game is as preposterous as saying the bridge is ruining the game.

Conclusions
As long as the jump shot is still legal, the jump cue should be legal. You may not like jumping, which is fine, but don't jump to the conclusion (sorry, I couldn't resist) that it is either too easy or ruining the game. At the end of the day, I still have to select the shot, aim, and stroke. No cue, jump or otherwise, is going to do that for me.

Best post in the thread......except for mine of course

But since you probably can't be accused of being a shill because of at one time having sold jump cues....yours is the best well reasoned post in the thread.

Great job.

 

[JB Cases]

Tell you what - I'll make a concession on the jump cue rule. You can keep the short stick. If it's the CUE that allows you to make the shots, let's stick a Le Pro tip on it.

With all those hours of practice, if I took away the phenolic tip, you'd be useless. Completely and utterly useless with the jump cue UNLESS you had over a foot between you and the ball.

If you give me a cue, and put any leather tip on it, I can make the same shots with a soft, medium or hard leather tip. I may need to adjust my spin, but I could play with any of the tips.

Jump cue - if I put a soft tip on it, it's useless. If I put a medium tip on it, it's useless. The tip needs to be rock hard for any sort of proficiency in jumping. Therefore, when the equipment configuration makes up about 80% of the ability to make the shot, it's a prop. Nothing more.

Jump shots actually took skill back when you had to use a leather tip. The Bunjee Jumper changed everything. The phenolic tipped jump cue turned pool into Yahtzee.

Actually, cues with phenolic tips were out before the Bunjee. The Bunjee Jumper might have been the first wildly popular jump cue thanks to my introduction and demonstrations and lessons at the BCA and VNEA nationals but it wasn't the first such cue.

Also, if you give me a lepro I can make it jump almost as well as a phenolic tip. I had at one time over 20 jump cues and about a dozen shafts with different tips on them for testing. I figured out how to modify almost any tip to work well for jumping.

But a super hard tip, phenolic, carbon fiber, thermoset plastic, treated leather...is simply the jump shot equivalent of chalk for everyone, of leather tips for everyone, of consistent rubber rails for everyone, etc....

It essentially gives every player on earth the same amount of POSSIBLE shots. Thus the only difference is in the player's ABILITY to make those shots. Players then ONLY have a slight advantage if they are taller but that advantage is greatly magnified if the shooter is forced to use a full cue. With a jump cue the physical advantage is effectively nullified and it really comes down to personal skill.

A Strickland with a jump cue will ALWAYS be a better jumper than a John Barton with a jump cue. Yes, Barton with a jump cue can make more jump shots than Strickland with a full cue. Just like an APA 3 with a chalked cue would ROB anyone shooting with a mace.

The players in the Mosconi came with some amazing jump shots under pressure. The cue only made the shots possible, the players are the ones that actually made the shots.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

So if the jump shot is legal then it's not legal to use a cue designed for that shot? Even if all else is the same, the player has to direct the cue, has to judge the speed, the spin, has to aim etc...

That's like saying ban chalk because it makes using sidespin too easy.

Zuglan has it 100% wrong.

A jump cue is still a cue. Every shot in pool can be played with one AND jump shots.

And the admonition to learn to kick is a red herring. Good players can and do both.

Nah. I disagree.
Zuglan makes the rules for his regional tour and the Turning Stone tournaments.
He doesn't like jump cues.
He's old school. Nothing wrong with that.

Jump cue has and always will be a shortcut. IMO
I have zero problem with banning jump cues being implemented.
I disagree with the whole red herring.

Kicking as a skill set, IMO from watching all these events, seems to be going the way of the dodo bird.
It is a skill set that is becoming obsolete.
Only people who still seem to be well versed in kicking, and the systems for kicking, are serious 1 pocket players, and people that play a lot of 3 cushion.

Even in Mosconi Cup where you had situations of balls near a rail, and instead of kicking 1 or 2 rails and potentially pocketing a ball, players opted to just jump over balls to hit the ball, and hope they got a good outcome.

Just because someone gets up there and wings it to try and hit the ball on the fly, doesn't mean they were exact about doing it, where people who KNOW seem to have much better outcomes of where object ball and whitey go.

Much in the same way you talk about jumping, and how it still takes skill, aim, speed etc etc. kicking is the same way.
There is a big difference between kicking a ball and kicking it well with a specific intended outcome.

Someone mentioned earlier about players hooking themselves and jumping out of their error.
I wholeheartedly agree with that.
At the very least, they could make rules that if you hook yourself, you have to kick and can only use the jump cue when played safe by an opponent.

Pool should be about your ability to negotiate the table. Not how you fly over it.
That stuff should be saved for trick shot magic.

 

[JB Cases]

Nah. I disagree.
Zuglan makes the rules for his regional tour and the Turning Stone tournaments.
He doesn't like jump cues.
He's old school. Nothing wrong with that.

Jump cue has and always will be a shortcut. IMO
I have zero problem with banning jump cues being implemented.
I disagree with the whole red herring.

Kicking as a skill set, IMO from watching all these events, seems to be going the way of the dodo bird.
It is a skill set that is becoming obsolete.
Only people who still seem to be well versed in kicking, and the systems for kicking, are serious 1 pocket players, and people that play a lot of 3 cushion.

Even in Mosconi Cup where you had situations of balls near a rail, and instead of kicking 1 or 2 rails and potentially pocketing a ball, players opted to just jump over balls to hit the ball, and hope they got a good outcome.

Just because someone gets up there and wings it to try and hit the ball on the fly, doesn't mean they were exact about doing it, where people who KNOW seem to have much better outcomes of where object ball and whitey go.

Much in the same way you talk about jumping, and how it still takes skill, aim, speed etc etc. kicking is the same way.
There is a big difference between kicking a ball and kicking it well with a specific intended outcome.

Someone mentioned earlier about players hooking themselves and jumping out of their error.
I wholeheartedly agree with that.
At the very least, they could make rules that if you hook yourself, you have to kick and can only use the jump cue when played safe by an opponent.

Pool should be about your ability to negotiate the table. Not how you fly over it.
That stuff should be saved for trick shot magic.

Kicking is a skill. Jumping is a skill.

What is a jump cue a shortcut to?

As I mentioned earlier I can take the very best jumper on the planet and make him look like an APA2 when he tries to jump a ball with a full cue. People have this false idea that jumping with a full cue is some sort of amazing skill while jumping with a jump cue is not.

No. Jumping with a full cue is a skill that is dependent on the shooter being able to physically get into the right position to jump

AND

having a cue that has good "jumpability"

That's it. The amount of jump shots that are possible are fairly small with a full cue that has good jumpability and almost impossible with one that doesn't.

As someone else said, ban jumping if you don't like it. But Zuglan doesn't ban jump shots, he bans jump cues which are used by the world's very best players everywhere else in the world at all the major tournaments.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Jump cues have been around for decades, if they were as accepted as chalk, they would have been by now. Chalk made pool better, jump cues make it worse. There are tours and tournaments that ban jump cues, no tournament bans chalk, or a bridge or anything else really. Only jump cues. And sometimes wearing your pants down to your knees and headphones along with jump cues. I don't care if you or anyone else uses a jump cue during league, a pro match should not be using such silliness. Learn to jump with a playing cue or kick.
Making a shot with a jump cue is about the same level of integrity and skill as crapping a ball in 3 rails after you missed it. Don't know how many times I see someone mess up position, hook themselves then jump with a short cue and make the hit. Yay, you messed up then used a gimmick cue to negate your mistake. Here is your participation trophy.

Are you sure about this? Personally I think a good jump shot requires quite a bit of skill. Certainly some are not too tough, but some are genuinely difficult, particularly when you factor the positional requirements into the equation. Certainly more difficult than a straight in stop shot from 2 feet away. Should those shots be banned too?

Another thing to consider: jump shots are *cool*. I mean, they simply look interesting and exciting, and occasionally spectacular. Most novice players can see a guy make a jump shot, and immediately say "wow that was amazing!" This generates interest and excitement, something the "sport" is really in need of. The average player probably doesn't have the skill set and knowledge to really appreciate a good kick safe. Even though this may be the more skillful shot, there is something to be said for excitement.

I would say my jumping ability far exceeds my average play level. Ironically I would generally prefer playing *without* jump cues. I feel that while skill is required to jump a ball, make it, and get shape...or jump to a good safe, not all that much skill is required to hit the ball. Once that happens, a million random things could result, and I'd prefer not to be subject to that. Nonetheless, I am more than happy to play with jump cues. As I said, there is a coolness factor, and it just means the safeties need to be tighter. So the same reasoning that says "it sucks when a lower skill player can easily jump out of a safe I play"...well it also means that it should be that much easier for me to do the same. However, the more skillful player is in a position to play much stronger safes, that are more difficult or impossible to jump out of. Thus no real advantage is gained for the weaker player if you think this through.

Personally, I'd love to play the guy in a tourney that consistently has to go to his jump cue to get out of positional errors he created for himself.

My $0.02

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I don't care about jump shots, I don't think jump cues should be used. Too easy and take away from safety play and when players make a mistake. Jump all you want with the playing cue.

I also don't like cue extensions much either. Play position to reach the shot or use the bridge. There should be rules for cues same as for cueballs. You can't change the cueball for a smaller one to go through a gap if the regular cueball won't fit. WPA and BCA should set stands for cues, not too long, not too short, and you use your playing cue through the match, except to break so you don't damage your playing tip.

You may be aware that humans come in different shapes and sizes? Reaching the shot isn't the issue (well, it *shouldn't* be the issue). Having sound fundamentals is the issue, and this simply isn't possible for very tall people with a standard length cue. Look at the PGA...do you think they are playing with off the shelf clubs? Every aspect of the club is tailored to their stance and height. If a 6'4" golfer played with standard length clubs, they would be forced to adopt a very unorthodox stance. The same is true for pool.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Longer cues for those with large wingspans are not what I was talking about, more of extending a cue to make playing a shot easier. While I'd love to take the reach advantage tall people have that is a bit silly LOL. Me being 5' 6" I don't like playing those that can reach across table easier than me, but oh well LOL

The thing is that your equipment should not give you such a clear advantage over the game or layout of the table, but your skill at using it should. There is of course no way you can take away an advantage that a tall person has over a shorter one to reach shots and limiting them to like a 60" max cue may cause them to be cramped in their ability to hit the ball properly, but there should be some limits to keep equipment from winning for you.

No cue pockets balls by itself. The "rods" (jump cues) you speak of that make it "easy" to jump a ball from an inch away...show me. Set up a cue ball an inch away from the object ball. I want to see you or anyone make the jump. Oh yeah...you're not allowed to touch the jump cue. It has to do the shot for you.

Seriously though, I think you are underestimating the difficulty of executing jump shots that result in a favorable outcome. Also, remember that in modern 9 ball, the penalty for failing to hit your ball is ball in hand. So is it any more fair to play a lock up safe, take ball in hand and run out? For most pros, that is vastly easier than executing a jump shot, making the ball, and getting shape.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I hate comments like this ^^^^^^^^

Sometimes the position is after the break or the player hooks themselves or just sh*t lucky leave. What does that have to do w/how you leave your opponent?

Um...seemingly obvious but ok.

SOME of the uses for a jump cue are to get out of a safe. Actually, it comes up very often lol. Suppose they squat the cueball perfectly center table on the break, and a ball rolls in the way at the last moment. Did they screw up? They really didn't do anything wrong. Also, how many people are going for their jump cue after the break instead of pushing out?

KMRUNOUT

 

[AtLarge]

... At the very least, they could make rules that if you hook yourself, you have to kick and can only use the jump cue when played safe by an opponent. ...

One of the streaming commentators has suggested that a number of times -- was it Danny DiLiberto?.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

In the situation you described, I'd rather leave the cue ball on a rail near the 8 or 9 and distance to the 7. With the 7 ideally on the rail. Much harder to return that safe than trying to hide them to allow a jump.



No, no it's not. If I'm 1" behind a ball jumping at a ball 5' away you better already be getting out of your chair to take ball in hand because I will not be hitting the required ball at all. If the ball I'm going for is more than 2' away I'm pretty much in desperation mode jumping for that. Your lack of understanding what is and isn't possible to jump has shown. Please remove yourself from a conversation you don't have knowledge in.

Hits 'em Hard...I liked your earlier post, and you raised some good points. However, I disagree with your assessment of what is and isn't difficult for a jump. Also, it kinda seems like there are two concepts going on here. "Hitting the ball" is one thing, "hitting the ball, making it, and controlling the cueball with a purposeful and agreeable outcome" is something else entirely.

I play in a weekly tourney in which jump cues are not allowed, but you can jump with a full cue. I am pretty good jumping with my break cue. Trust me when I tell you though that having the object ball further away is better. This is because with a full length cue, you typically have to hit the cue ball with more velocity to achieve the desired jump. This results in some long distance bouncing that typically comes under control further down the table, not closer. If I am trying to *make* the ball, and I'm using a short jump cue, then yeah I'd prefer the object ball somewhat closer, but not necessarily very close. about 2 feet is a comfortable distance that allows me to clear a full ball and still have an expectation of cueball control. If the object ball is too close, numerous problems come up. I may be forced to land on the ball, in which case the trajectory of the cueball is more difficult to predict and control. I may have to hit the object ball on an upward bounce, in which case draw or a good stop shot is out the window.

You make a point of saying that people should be knowledgeable about what is and isn't possible in order to comment. Trust me on this one. Let me use my Jacoby jump cue, and I will hit a ball 5 feet away pretty regularly (yeah, 1" clearance is pretty tough, but not impossible.) Making the ball, or controlling the cue ball, well that is another story. Although I must say I need at least a full balls distance to the interfering ball before I have any sense of "control". For me, the ideal and easiest jump shot to control and be accurate with is one where the object ball is close to the pocket, the total distance from the cue ball to the object ball is about 2 or 3 feet, and the interfering ball is about 1 foot away from the cue ball. Under those conditions, I'm probably going to make the ball a very high percentage of the time, and be somewhat likely to get the shape I need, assuming it isn't monster draw or follow.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I was actually going to start a thread about this same thing, but not just for the Mosconi Cup, but for all pool tournaments, it's ridiculous.

My friend and I were watching the Mosconi Cup and we've discussed this same subject during the final day, It's petty how a player puts himself in trouble, then with an easy tool get out of the trouble with no penalties whatsoever, it's really sad.

As Grady Mathews (RIP) said in the past, and I quote "I can easily teach a guy to jump balls in 30mins, but it takes years to teach him how to kick correctly" ----- And Grady is right, jumping is so easy with that short cue, it should never been allowed at all.

The problem is, when a jump cue is used and the pro makes the ball, some of the fans think "Oh god this is beautiful shot" when its in fact not, but thats how amuators see jump shots sadly, they think its' a great shot and looks nice, but its destroying the game actually, only if the amuator know how easy it is to jump, then he wouldn't clap when a pro makes a jump shot with that short cue.

If only amateurs understood how easy it is to run out a wide open rack with ball in hand...

By your post I must conclude you are a pro. If you are an amateur, then I guess you must also be subject to the same sort of miscalculation about what is and isn't difficult. If you think jumping the ball, pocketing the object ball, and getting safe...or jumping to a safe, or jumping to a kick or bank...if you think those things are easy, then you are a shining example of the amateur mentality you are speaking about.

Hitting the ball is pretty easy. Learning to make the cue ball get over the interfering ball and go vaguely in the direction of the object ball is pretty easy. If that is all you think jumping is...well you are the exact reason I am happy that jump cues are allowed. Because I get to use them too. And I'm gonna do a LOT more with mine.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

When I went to quote your post that this is in response to, you have it listed as 1" which is 1 inch. It seems you edited the post somewhere between my reading it going to quote it. If I'm 1' (1 foot) away from an impeding ball, I should have no problem controlling the cue ball whether the ball I'm going for is 6" behind the impeding ball or 7'. If you don't feel that you don't have that much control when 1' away, then my statement stands. You don't have the proper knowledge of jumping to be talking about whether jump cues should be banned or not. Here's a bonus that I learned while practicing jumps. I can jump the cue ball and stop it dead. Can you do that?

The closer the cue ball becomes to the impeding ball, the more difficult it becomes to hit balls farther away. If I'm 6" away from an impeding ball, I'd put my chances to make the jump higher when the target ball is closer than 2' from the impeding ball. If I'm 6" away from an impeding ball and I'm needing to hit a ball 6' away from the impeding ball. I will have zero cue ball control. Anything I do the cue ball will be completely gone by the time it reaches the object ball. Move the cue ball back to 1' away from the impeding ball and the 6' jump becomes easier to contact than the 2'.

Jump shots aren't really situational at all. The closer the cue ball is to an impeding ball, the more you have to jack up. Angle in is angle out. If I need the cue ball to clear a 1" gap, that means my my angle out is around 75degrees. That means my jump cue needs to contact the cue ball at a greater than 75degree angle. The more power I add sends the cue ball higher than it does farther. The less angle the more distance I get.

Jump cues have done nothing but elevate the level of play. Safeties are being played better. It's why the commentators are so bad these days. They just don't have a clue of what truly is possible. The pressure added from not being able to play certain safeties because of jump cues has caused players to work that much more on the more difficult runout shots. The people I see daily that don't like jump cues are the ones that refuse to work on their game. It's their arrogance that drives their opinion, not facts.

Wow you missed his point big time. Lets say the object ball and cueball are 5 feet apart. In one situation, the interfering ball is 4 feet away from the cue ball, and thus 1 foot away from the object ball. That is one situation. In the second situation, the cueball and object ball are in the exact same locations, 5 feet away from each other. This time, the interfering ball is 1 foot away from the cueball, and thus 4 feet away from the object ball. The first situation is far more difficult. And the fact that you understood me up to hear, all the while with me using the word "situation", pretty much closed the case on whether jump shot difficulty is situational. I mean, seriously...ALL SHOTS are situational. Is it equal difficulty to draw the cue ball 3 feet when you are a foot away from the object ball in the middle of the table, compared to when your cue ball is frozen to the rail and the object ball is 6 feet away?

I really like a lot of what you have to say. Please remember, however, that almost all people are not as smart as they think they are. You may be great at jumping, and may be a genius. I don't know you at all. But you were not able to effectively read Shawn Armstrong's post and understand what he was saying. I'm not sure you know what the word "situational" means. No offense, but you baiscally say jump shots are not situational and then attempt to justify this by describing different situations that pertain to jump shots, and what you need to change to be effective.

Your last paragraph is great. I agree with you on that one. I think jumping has brought many things to the game. Whether those things are good or bad is a matter of opinion. Personally, I think the definition of what constitutes a good safe has become much stricter and more difficult to achieve. I think of that as a good thing.

As I said, I really like what you have to say, except the parts where you say people shouldn't talk about what they don't know. They should. How else will they find out? And if you're gonna criticize someone, it probably helps to make sure you understand what they are saying.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Every time this comes up in the forums, I hesitate to respond because people get very emotional, almost religious, about this topic. This post may seem like a rant, but I assure you it is not, and it won't upset me one iota if you disagree.

That being said, below are some of my thoughts on jumping and jump cues.

Jumping is easy, kicking is hard
Using a jump cue, with a little training, getting the cue ball airborne is easy. That's where "jumping is easy" ends. Jumping is a skill, just like any other, and it takes work, knowledge, and practice to maximize that skill. Once you learn how to get the ball airborne, you have to learn how to not hit it too hard, how to land it where you want, how to hit it on line, how to pocket balls, and ultimately how to control the cue ball afterwards.

In my local room, I think I am regarded as one of the better practitioners of the jump shot. Why? Because I practice it. I've put in my time to develop the skill. While jumping I have (intentionally) made balls and applied english and spin. I have jump caromed, jump masse'd, jump banked, jump kicked, and jump safetied. I once jumped my own ball in eight-ball: not because I got out of position, but because it was the best way to complete the run out. I've tried (unsuccessfully) to double jump, but I'll get there some day.

I've dart jumped, sidearm jumped, long cue jumped, and rail jumped. I've jumped balls very close and far away. I've jumped into a cluster to strike a specific ball on top. And if you think it was "easy" to get to that skill level, then we'd have to agree to disagree. Even though my "make" percentage is very low, in the grand scheme of things, I've gotten pretty good at it by hard work and effort. And don't forget that developing the skill isn't enough, you also have to have the imagination and the vision to see the shot and the courage to pull the trigger.

I get tired of hearing that "jumping is easy". I love seeing a good jump shot, because I know it's more difficult than a regular shot. It's harder to aim, it's harder to stroke the ball on the proper line, and it's harder to control the cue ball, both before and after the object ball is contacted. The margin for error is much smaller when you add the third dimension. Do you know why the pros jump with such confidence? They practice the jump shot. If it was so easy, they wouldn't need to practice. And yes, they use good equipment. And they have great imaginations. And, let's face it, they're just better at this than we are.

Does kicking require more skill? To achieve the same level of skill, absolutely. I can kick and hit a ball fairly well, and some of the time I can even hit the correct side of the object ball, and sometimes I can control the cue ball afterwards. I applaud anyone who can truly master kicking, especially considering all the mitigating factors between tables: rail/bumper quality, cloth condition and cleanliness, speed, humidity, english, spin, how hard the cue ball was struck, and so on. But the difficulty of kicking in no way alleviates the difficulty of jumping. Both are skills that take time and effort to develop.

Banning the jump shot
Reading all that above, you may think that I would get upset if the jump shot was banned. I would not. As long as the same rules apply to everyone, that's equitable. When I was learning how to play, before jump cues were really a thing, I took lessons from a guy who played on the BCA tour (and owned our local pool hall, where I worked). He found me practicing the jump shot one day (full cue at the time), and told me not to bother because the BCA was going to outlaw the jump shot. 25 years later, here we are.

I do think pool was intended to be played two dimensionally. We don't allow the scoop shot, which is basically an intentional miscue. If we wanted to extend that to say that any action that causes the cue ball to intentionally leave the surface of the table is a foul, then so be it. Until that day comes, however, the jump shot is just another part of the game.

On banning jump cues
Assuming the jump shot is still legal, the problem with banning the jump cue is it's a slippery slope. If you're going to ban the jump cue because it is a "specialty" cue, then you have to ban the break cue as well. It doesn't matter if your justification is to protect your playing tip, it's a cue designed and used for a specialty shot, so the same logic applies. At the very least, you have to ban special break tips. And shafts. And ferrules. While we're at it, we have to ban the bridge and the temporary cue extension. These are specialty pieces of equipment used for specialty shots and specialty situations.

Again, I'm OK if this happens, because the same rules would apply to everyone. Is it realistic? Heck no. But the idea that jump cues are ruining the game is as preposterous as saying the bridge is ruining the game.

Conclusions
As long as the jump shot is still legal, the jump cue should be legal. You may not like jumping, which is fine, but don't jump to the conclusion (sorry, I couldn't resist) that it is either too easy or ruining the game. At the end of the day, I still have to select the shot, aim, and stroke. No cue, jump or otherwise, is going to do that for me.

106 of my posts later, I wish I could have said what you just said in one. Excellent post. Logically sound. Well said. Thread over lol.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Sorry...but we had chalk in the 1960's and 1970's but none of my friends or myself used or owned
jump cues. We used masse' and kick shots.


Now masse' would be tough on the cloth made today.
We'd have to start using a special masse' cue instead of the jump cue.



:yikes:





.

Yikes indeed. Do people actually believe that if it happened in the past, it must be better?

Cars didn't have rubber tires at one point. The GPS app on my phone has only been around for several years, but damned if it isn't super helpful.

"What we had in the 60's or 70's" is 100% irrelevant to whether jump cues are good or bad for the game. It is completely relevant, however, to the apparent bias you formed on the subject. What is familiar is best.

Yikes!

KMRUNOUT