Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

John,

Using my language of 'decades of better than average pool' seems to me as an indirect invitation. Are you inviting me, as you do with Lou, to play pool? I do still enjoy OnePocket and 9ball. I'm not interested in you showing me the differences in kicking and jumping. But I'm an older player that still enjoys gaming on the pool table. If that's your intent please by all means let me know and I'll see if I can oblige

But my main intent here is asking ... do you now sell the jump cue again? One of my posts you answered that you didn't sell them anymore. But above you use present tense

Confused I am but not about this jump cue scenario. It should be banned imo
If you want to get on camera with me and have a live debate on a pool table about jump cues and kicking I will bet $1000 that I can win the debate.

Otherwise I have no interest in playing you any pool related to this debate. I don't care how good you are or are not.

I do not sell jump cues presently. But your earlier insinuation that my support of them is only because you thought I currently sell them was out of line. If you can't come up with a better reason than you simply don't like them don't try to discredit my logical reasons in support of them with personal accusations.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk
 
If you want to get on camera with me and have a live debate on a pool table about jump cues and kicking I will bet $1000 that I can win the debate.

I'm very curious...how the hell can you win a bet on a debate?
....who determines who won?

There have been debates going on that span generations, even centuries...
...with no sign of an agreement in sight
 
I'm very curious...how the hell can you win a bet on a debate?
....who determines who won?

There have been debates going on that span generations, even centuries...
...with no sign of an agreement in sight
JB would most likely be the judge. Johnnyt
 
Most on the major cue companies sell jump cues and most of these cue companies sponsor streams and tournaments. I wish they would go away, but it will never happen. If there were more Mike Zuglan's around...maybe. Johnnyt
 
Think Mike Zuglan has it correct on the Joss Northeast Tour. You can jump as long as you use your full length cue. As you can only bring two cues to the table, it eliminates the specialty lightweight cues. If you want one handy, you must break or play with it!!! Jumping is a skill set just as kicking is. Took me a long, long time to try to learn the diamond system. Took one hour to use a jump cue. Now I can not use it correctly all the time but..... Given the state of the game, I'd ban all jump shots. All of them full cue or not. Lets have the young players learn to kick. Might save the game of three cushion billiards. JMHO.

Lyn

Again with this bullshit.

What makes you think ANY player doesn't know how to kick just because they jump instead?

One thing I will give you is that yes, the diamond system as most people know it is pretty damn complicated. It's also pretty damn old, and there's much easier methods out now. Most notably Tor Lowry's kicking system.
 
Well that's like your opinion, man, but I have to disagree. Like I've said I can teach about anyone of moderate skill how to easily jump balls and make clean hits on an object ball in probably ten or fifteen minutes. It takes longer to get them to learn how to make an effective bridge ffs.

Eh, this is an unfair comparison.

You're talking about taking someone of a moderate skill level and teaching them to jump, to taking what I assume is a total beginner and teaching them how to make a bridge. If you're already of a moderate skill level, then surely it's easier to learn how to make clean one rail kicks than to jump a ball (neither of which should be much of a challenge for someone who already plays regularly anyway).
 
Again with this bullshit.

What makes you think ANY player doesn't know how to kick just because they jump instead?

One thing I will give you is that yes, the diamond system as most people know it is pretty damn complicated. It's also pretty damn old, and there's much easier methods out now. Most notably Tor Lowry's kicking system.

Do you ever watch your opponent when you play them safe? A high percentage of the time I see my opponent going for their jump cue before the cue ball stops rolling. Pretty much an indication it is their only means of reaching the next ball in play. Of course there are young players who have learned to kick. Just seems our current society places a high value on simplicity. Hours of "hard" work versus a few minutes of instruction. Regarding Tor's method. What percentage of our up and coming players even know who Tor is? Let alone learn his or any system.

Sat for eight hours over two days and watched our Mosconi team play. One thing I noticed was the incredible (to me) number of times our team missed simple kicks when played safe. Saw them make some incredible hits but way too many misses. Maybe it's the new cloth? Perhaps the new rail rubbers? Perhaps the low humidity under the lighting? Still giving up cue ball in hand to a world class opponent is not what I expected from our team. Again, JMHO.

Lyn
 
I don't own a jump cue. I think they should be banned. I love the beauty and satisfaction that I get when I execute a 3 rail kick. I also like the expression on my opponents face when I do it and they think they have me locked up with an evil safety. I truly believe I could learn to jump well if I chose to but I'll bet the guys that jump would take a long long time to be proficient in kicking. It is easier to jump well than to kick well. I know I'm a traditionalist. I mourn the slow demise of 3 cushion. I think everyone now plays in bars. Have you ever seen a 3 cushion table in a bar? Maybe the game has evolved and I haven't. I'll take a poolroom with 9 footers over a bar with 7 footers every time. No question. I'll take the kick over the jump.
 
Jumping a ball requires a different body position and a different type of stroke.


Kicking on the other hand just requires knowing where on the rail to hit which is easily mastered through practice and memorization. Not to mention when it comes to simply making a good hit. The margin of error is significant.
 
Jumping a ball requires a different body position and a different type of stroke.


Kicking on the other hand just requires knowing where on the rail to hit which is easily mastered through practice and memorization. Not to mention when it comes to simply making a good hit. The margin of error is significant.

But the knowing where to hit it on the rail requires 'seeing the table." Not as easy as you imply. Some people play for years and never "see the table." I am sure you know players like that.
 
Three thoughts, and a disclaimer: I don't care either way in this debate, I can jump if I need to, and kick when I need to.

Thought one: Can someone please explain why a jump cue is a 'crutch' and a gimmick and makes the game 'easier' while putting diamonds on the rail to aid in aiming and banking is gospel and at it's core is not exactly the same thing. If playing on a table without rail diamonds would be considerably harder, then they are serving the same purpose - making a difficult shot easier. How did one helper get 'necessary part of the game' status while the other is a 'tool for lesser players'?

Which leads into the second thought - I think this entire debate is just another facet of the 'I spent a lot of time learning this game, and if you didn't, you aren't as good as me' debate. Other facets include the 'handicaps are for losers' debate where people say the only way to get better is to lose (preferably money) to better players based solely on the logic that they got better that way, and that's how it should be done. This debate also took place when LD shafts first came out and people complained that it made the game easier for people without the knowledge to give for deflection.

Final thought - while some are praising Mike Zulgan for banning jump cues, I think it is a symptom of the greater problem with pool - no standardization. If the jump cue is a legal piece of equipment then it should be legal. Changing that one aspect should not be within the purvey of a league or tour just because they don't like it. What if suddenly The Masters decided that over-sized composite golf clubs were 'bad for the game' and made it 'too easy' and made everyone use persimmon drivers with steel shafts 'because that's how the game was meant to be played' They wouldn't - because they have their s#$% together and realize that progression is part of the game, and that games and equipment evolve or sink into obscurity.
 
Three thoughts, and a disclaimer: I don't care either way in this debate, I can jump if I need to, and kick when I need to.

Thought one: Can someone please explain why a jump cue is a 'crutch' and a gimmick and makes the game 'easier' while putting diamonds on the rail to aid in aiming and banking is gospel and at it's core is not exactly the same thing. If playing on a table without rail diamonds would be considerably harder, then they are serving the same purpose - making a difficult shot easier. How did one helper get 'necessary part of the game' status while the other is a 'tool for lesser players'?

Which leads into the second thought - I think this entire debate is just another facet of the 'I spent a lot of time learning this game, and if you didn't, you aren't as good as me' debate. Other facets include the 'handicaps are for losers' debate where people say the only way to get better is to lose (preferably money) to better players based solely on the logic that they got better that way, and that's how it should be done. This debate also took place when LD shafts first came out and people complained that it made the game easier for people without the knowledge to give for deflection.

Final thought - while some are praising Mike Zulgan for banning jump cues, I think it is a symptom of the greater problem with pool - no standardization. If the jump cue is a legal piece of equipment then it should be legal. Changing that one aspect should not be within the purvey of a league or tour just because they don't like it. What if suddenly The Masters decided that over-sized composite golf clubs were 'bad for the game' and made it 'too easy' and made everyone use persimmon drivers with steel shafts 'because that's how the game was meant to be played' They wouldn't - because they have their s#$% together and realize that progression is part of the game, and that games and equipment evolve or sink into obscurity.

Nice post and well explained. I can see you are tired of many of the threads on this forum as many of us are.
Simply put, jump cues are a relatively new invention. Until their inception the rails or your playing cue were needed to make a hit . You personally may be able to jump AND kick but many players who rely on their jump sticks cannot kick at all. They would be lost on a 3 cushion table. I freely admit that I am a traditionalist and am unapologetic about it. For me there is no beauty in a jump shot. I see it only as a gimmick. If bar box is pool nowadays then the game is passing me by and I will enjoy the game the way it is as long as it is there for me. I will be the guy that tells my grandchildren that I remember when there were poolrooms with 9 footers and players could maneuver whitey wherever they wanted to without taking the shortcut of hopping over balls.
 
Jumping a ball requires a different body position and a different type of stroke.


Kicking on the other hand just requires knowing where on the rail to hit which is easily mastered through practice and memorization. Not to mention when it comes to simply making a good hit. The margin of error is significant.

Um no, you're about as wrong as possible on this. Successful kicking is probably the hardest thing to master in the game.
 
You seem to have trouble catching on, but let me help you out. Back in the early 90s there were a bunch of jump cues that were developed that made it absurdly easy to execute jump shots. First we had people who jumped 'dart style' using just their shafts, which was cool and stuff, and the first time I saw that was maybe in about '92. Before long they came out with cues that were about a foot long and had no tips on them, they were just bare wood at about 15mm and you put just a little bit of chalk on the wood. Looked crazy, but you could jump about anything with them, even when the balls were just an inch or two apart. Then next was the worst of all, which was the 'gas powered' jump cues or whatever, and they were again about the length of a shaft and had a big 15mm tip made of what looked like white plastic or something but supposedly had a special gas inside. Who knows whether that was true or not or what the material was, but the point was now with one of those things you could jump a ball that was within about a half an inch (or maybe even less) from the blocker. So at that point things got a little absurd because there was virtually no snookers that you couldn't jump out of and it got to where some players were so good at it that even hooking them at all became a pointless exercise. They just pull out this thing that looks like a big stir stick and hop over the ball and you have to wonder why you bothered even playing the hook in the first place. (Howard Vickery was one player I can recall who was a master with that little cue, but there were lots of others.)

So at that point there was some outcry from fans and players alike, and as a result tours and tournament directors started waking up and implementing a rule that jump cues had to be a minimum of 40" long. I'm not sure who was first with that rule, whether it was the PBT or the Camel Tour or what, but before long it became the standard for all tournaments and it more or less remains the same today.

So that's the history, and so like I said in my original post that you had trouble understanding, knowing that history reduces the whole jump cue discussion to some simple logical questions. See if you can follow along...


Question #1: Is there a point at which jumping becomes too easy and jump cues need to be regulated? YES or NO

Now logically we'd have to think the answer to this is YES, because otherwise the 40" rule for jump cues wouldn't exist and we go back to the early 90s and the 12-inch cues with the 15mm wooden tips and the 'gas powered' jumpers and so forth. Now if that's what you want then that's a discussion we can have, but I think if you saw one of those cues in action you'd agree that they're pretty absurd.

But if it's agreed that the answer to #1 is YES then what follows is:

Question #2: Are we at that point now? YES or NO (with reasons)

And that's pretty much it.


So like I say, comparing jump cues to chalk, or to gloves, or to low-deflection shafts, or whatever, is pure and simple missing the point. It's clear that jump cues can be regulated, and the reason it's clear is because it's been done before. The question is whether we've reached that point again. I say yes.

Clear enough for you?

It doesn't surprise me that you think I misunderstood you. We seem to have different ideas of what constitutes logic. I think where you are going wrong is in the assumption that because I think the logic is lacking in your attempts to explain your position, that I somehow misunderstood you. If you don't understand the analogy to chalk or low deflection shafts, that's ok. If you don't get why "because X happened they did Y" is not a valid argument for or against anything, well I guess there are probably other people you can talk with who are not so picky about basic rules of logic and argumentation. It's all good. You can enjoy the rest of being you with the thought that I am very stupid.

KMRUNOUT
 
You visited my poolroom a few times or at least once with McChesney Robin in Richmond Va. I did host many ...

That's another huge reason I don't like the shot. Couldn't stand anybody pounding on my pool tables constantly. If they wanted to practice jumping I sent them down to my competitor and let them beat up their tables and put holes in the walls :smile:

The shot needs to be eliminated imo

Hope you are well Robin ...

Do you believe a big power break is *less* damaging to the cloth?

KMRUNOUT
 
OK I will bite

Care to explain your statement ?

I can see both sides having valid points.

Personally I don't want to play on any table that been hammered to death.

Masse French word for Hammer.

Every time I jump masse or even hit the cue ball on or for a break it leave a white or friction mark on the table .......................................

Both sides may have valid "points of view". However, both sides do not nearly have equal skill in formulating valid arguments to support those points of view.

If you understand what logic and reasoning is and how it works, then the explanation to your question here is self evident. If you don't understand how logic and reasoning works, then no explanation will answer your question. That is one of the unfortunate conundrums with humanity.

KMRUNOUT
 
Well that's like your opinion, man, but I have to disagree. Like I've said I can teach about anyone of moderate skill how to easily jump balls and make clean hits on an object ball in probably ten or fifteen minutes. It takes longer to get them to learn how to make an effective bridge ffs.



Um sorry but that's not true. Damage to the equipment may have been one of the arguments for the 40" rule, but the primary point was always that the super short cues took too much of the skill out of the shot.

Besides, someone who wants to seriously say that a 40" jump cue does less 'damage' to the balls, cloth, or table than a 16" jump cue is pretty much nuts. That doesn't pass the smell test at all.



Sorry but this is false as well. For sure lots of top players in the international community are good with jump cues and they are in use in lots of tournaments, but it's hardly an issue that isn't debated. Hell the Brits banned jumping altogether from snooker in like 1959 (and that game isn't exactly struggling). In fact two international players in Appleton and Shaw are pretty clearly anti-jump cue, because I just saw them write about it on Facebook. Immonen too, I believe.

As for the whole 20 years thing, or whatever the actual timing is, longevity really has no bearing on the discussion. Lots of things have been in various sports for a long time and then been regulated out. Anchored putting and square grooves in golf were around for far longer than jump cues, but now both have been banned (or will be in 2016). There are countless examples in other sports too, including aluminum bats vs. wood, polyester vs. natural gut strings for tennis rackets, heated blades for ice skates, 'tacky' gloves in the NFL, active suspensions in Formula One, the list goes on and on. Debates about whether a new technology makes a sport better or worse go on all the time, and there are some pretty clear winners and losers for them all, and a lot of nuance in the decisions involved.

When it comes to pool I guess what's needed is some kind of metric whereby the 'ease of use' of something like jump cues needs to be measured by some kind of criteria that are beyond just the opinion of people who may or may not have a vested interest in the result. As for what that might be that's probably a whole other discussion, but I for one would submit that the ease of teaching the skill to someone is a big part of it, and it's pretty hard to argue that it doesn't take longer to kick -- and especially to kick effectively-- than it does to learn how to jump. I also think the difficulty rating for getting a good result out of a random snooker is a lower with jumping over kicking the vast majority of the time. Again it's just like my opinion, but together those are two things that put me pretty squarely against the jumpers.

Funny how these "arguments" become repetitive and self-contradictory. Here is a simple fact: It is easier to learn how to kick than how to jump. The easiest kick is laughable...someone who never shot a ball in their life can likely accomplish it very quickly. The easiest jump, however, requires some basic mechanical ability.

Now, if you want to talk about kicking "effectively", or "well", or "skillfully", well now that's a whole different thing. THE EXACT SAME CAN BE SAID OF JUMPING. Hitting the object ball in simple situations can be learned fairly easily by players of low skill. Producing a jump shot that results in a quality outcome by PRO standards is *way* different. How are people not getting this??

I think this thread would grind to a halt if people posting against jump cues because they are too easy were required to submit a video of them executing a great jump shot *with a positive, intended result*. Let's SEE the shots that are so easy with a jump cue but so tough to kick at. Show me.

KMRUNOUT
 
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