Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

[JB Cases]

Well that's like your opinion, man, but I have to disagree. Like I've said I can teach about anyone of moderate skill how to easily jump balls and make clean hits on an object ball in probably ten or fifteen minutes. It takes longer to get them to learn how to make an effective bridge ffs.



Um sorry but that's not true. Damage to the equipment may have been one of the arguments for the 40" rule, but the primary point was always that the super short cues took too much of the skill out of the shot.

Besides, someone who wants to seriously say that a 40" jump cue does less 'damage' to the balls, cloth, or table than a 16" jump cue is pretty much nuts. That doesn't pass the smell test at all.



Sorry but this is false as well. For sure lots of top players in the international community are good with jump cues and they are in use in lots of tournaments, but it's hardly an issue that isn't debated. Hell the Brits banned jumping altogether from snooker in like 1959 (and that game isn't exactly struggling). In fact two international players in Appleton and Shaw are pretty clearly anti-jump cue, because I just saw them write about it on Facebook. Immonen too, I believe.

As for the whole 20 years thing, or whatever the actual timing is, longevity really has no bearing on the discussion. Lots of things have been in various sports for a long time and then been regulated out. Anchored putting and square grooves in golf were around for far longer than jump cues, but now both have been banned (or will be in 2016). There are countless examples in other sports too, including aluminum bats vs. wood, polyester vs. natural gut strings for tennis rackets, heated blades for ice skates, 'tacky' gloves in the NFL, active suspensions in Formula One, the list goes on and on. Debates about whether a new technology makes a sport better or worse go on all the time, and there are some pretty clear winners and losers for them all, and a lot of nuance in the decisions involved.

When it comes to pool I guess what's needed is some kind of metric whereby the 'ease of use' of something like jump cues needs to be measured by some kind of criteria that are beyond just the opinion of people who may or may not have a vested interest in the result. As for what that might be that's probably a whole other discussion, but I for one would submit that the ease of teaching the skill to someone is a big part of it, and it's pretty hard to argue that it doesn't take longer to kick -- and especially to kick effectively-- than it does to learn how to jump. I also think the difficulty rating for getting a good result out of a random snooker is a lower with jumping over kicking the vast majority of the time. Again it's just like my opinion, but together those are two things that put me pretty squarely against the jumpers.

Then the ease of playing safe should be regulated don't you think?

Why should the shooter have it extremely easy to duck and force the incoming player to kick with the penalty being ball in hand?

What about when the shooter misses and leaves the opponent safe? Why should the incoming player be penalized so severely?

I mean if this is really about degree of difficulty then it should not be allowed to hide behind balls if you get out if line.

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[KMRUNOUT]

You lost me at APA 2...

Jump cues suck. PERIOD

Deep insight. Appreciated!

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

:rotflmao1:

:rotflmao1:
Ah, the democratic process....have you noticed some of the people that get elected?.....
...or juries like the one that let OJ walk?

I had a lifetime friend like you....he was a CPA and prided himself on his logic.
...we bet small money on hundreds of things...but every once in a while, he would want
to make a bet based on common sense......:scratchhead:
...I would tell him that I only make bets I can collect on....
...or be proven wrong, and learn something.

This is a great point. I don't really think the general public is equipped to judge any sort of debate.

The democratic process has as its fundamental flaw that the people are governed by the average.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Allow me to wade in after not reading 14 pages of ban or not ban the jump cue for Mosconi Cup

Mosconi cup is on TV

Jump cues suck for the purists.
Jump cues are great for TV


Jump cues are great for TV - Jump cues suck for the purists = TV is good for pool

Therefore......

Get rid of purists

Haha...now see here is some logic I like lol. Good one!

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Could be one of the reasons that Efren matches on YouTube get the most views...
....I've seen players miss getting snookers on Efren...I suspect it came from the
realization that when you hooked him, he often hooked you back.

Well, that and his personality....he is not a 'strutter'....and when he smiles, he seems to
be letting the audience in on the joke.

To be fair, I think Efren gets so many views because people like to watch the best. I mean, let's face it the list of reasons to watch Efren is pretty long. I am not so sure that him not doing too many jump shots is especially high on that list.

But I get where you are coming from, I think.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Oh my, the unintended hilarity of this post is nothing short of awesome. Please never stop posting.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. I have no intention of stopping posting. I often see people on the subway, looking kinda crazy and disheveled, muttering to themselves and occasionally laughing. You post made me think of that for some reason. Luckily you didn't add anything constructive to spoil the image.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I would like be clear about something.....I'm enjoying your posts....
...even if it makes my head hurt....

"I've never learnt a thing from a man who agreed with me."

You make me want to go rummaging around my book collection again.

...and, re home tables, I've advised some to play straight pool and one pocket on them...
....practice your break at the pool hall.
....some of them thanked me.

Well I'm very happy to hear this. I had my own table at home. I wish I could post a picture of it here. Man I beat the heck out of that thing.

I've always enjoyed your posting as well. I definitely have a weakness for situations in which someone who clearly doesn't really understand what they are talking about tries to convince me or others of some "fact", and completely lacks the ability to support their view. I don't know why this lights a fire in me so much, but it does. I am overwhelmed with the compulsion to question them, to try and figure out how it is possible that they could see things in such a way. I realize this is not for many, and downright offputting to some. I am speaking very generally here and not directing this at anyone.

In any case, thanks for your clarification.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

The point is that I, or any other thinking person could set up 100s of jumps that any C or D player would be a favourite to make, but as a kick you would need to be at a near professional level to be as consistent with.

Do you for some reason believe that the opposite is not true? I am certain I can set up 100's of kicks that are far easier than a jump in the same situation.

So what does this prove?

The entire rest of your post I agree with.

KMRUNOUT

 

[KMRUNOUT]

My logic comes from years of running a top class pool room.

Ahh...ok I think we may have found the problem. See, my logic comes from, and this is going to sound weird but follow me here, *studying logic*. I really want my doctors to learn their thing in medical school. I want my airplane mechanics to learn in airplane mechanic schools, working on planes, not fumbling around with lawnmowers and go karts in their garage. No offense, but it would appear that while you may have much info and skill in running a pool room, and may have good reasons for believing what you believe, I'm not sure you recognize that logic is a whole field of study unto itself, with its own set of rules, standards, and principles.

I am certain that the only reason I criticized your logic is because you first chose the *logic* of another poster as a point of attack, and then proceeded to illogically criticize them. Sorry if it seemed like I picked on you...the irony was irresistible to me.

The monster 9ball break shot as you called it does mark the table - true. But who is debating playing 9ball while eliminating the monster break?

No one.

This is about intentional flight of the cueball. Ever dawn on you that someone could get hit squarely and not recover from a stone to the head? My insurance policy wouldn't be so agreeable that I allow balls to be flying thru the air. Not to mention the trivial indentations of ball marks into my drywall. Someone could seriously be hurt.

Seriously? *That* is your objection to the jump shot? Who on earth is performing these jump shots? I mean, people can hit the cue ball with a swing like a baseball bat too...guess we better ban all cues. And there is VASTLY more energy in the cueball on the break than on any jump shot. Guess we're back to banning the break too.

The jump shot is barbaric. It has no place in such beautiful games as pool and snooker. Ask some of the snooker players turned pool players what they think of the shot. I'd say they'd say to ban it imo.

This is your opinion. You don't really support this opinion with any reason at all. Who cares what snooker players think of pool? How is that relevant?

Learn how to beautifully find a rail. Efren is the greatest player I've ever seen and a premiere example. I've watched him countless times but have never seen him try to jump. Same goes for his comrades which I have to say are the best players in the world.

I agree about Efren. Being able to jump does not prevent me from being able to kick. I can do both. I've learned tons from watching Efren play. An I *have* seen him jump. Just very rarely. His kicking ability, I'm sure you would agree since you just said it, is the greatest ever. Hence, for the rest of us mortals, that isn't really a great example of why we should kick.

You wanted logic, well here's a sample of my version

The jump shot should be banned world wide. It makes a very skillful game less skillful.

As a proprietor it's absolutely absurd

And the shot is not allowed in APA like you may have insinuated in one of your posts so that comparison is futile

Ban the jump shot ...

Again this is just my opinion but appears I'm not alone. Enough said. Peace

I genuinely appreciate your attempt at logic here. Again, I'm not trying to pick on you, so I will leave it at that. I will happily provide feedback if you wish, but only if you ask.

However I will clarify that the only reason I mentioned APA is to reference the skill level 2, so that you might get an idea of the level of player I was talking about. I meant someone who is not the favorite to run 2 balls.

Peace to you too.

KMRUNOUT

 

[philly]

You lost me at APA 2...

Jump cues suck. PERIOD

What else is there to say but amen.

 

[philly]

I don't worship logic, but it is a tool that is used in most situations. As such it is a tool whose use should be at least learned, if not mastered, by everyone.

And as for people showing up with a jump cue? No problem. Any table I have would be there to play on. For the same reason, I would never buy a cue and put it in a glass case. My cue is nice and I love it, but it has dings all over it and it gets used. To play pool. I don't worry about it too much. Well executed jump shots seem to wear the cloth considerably less than a monster break shot. At your house, do you have to leave your break shot at home too?

Thing is, if you want to get at the truth, and discern the subtle distinctions between various thoughts and point of view, logic might be the best tool we have. It is not something to be feared or denigrated. I mean, not being very good with logic is one thing. Disliking logic is something else. Some people do both.

The thing is, in debate and discussion, when people say things that are illogical, it is kind of like trying to play pool with someone who not only 1) doesn't know how to play, but also 2) wants to argue with you about how to play. Most pool players are total hacks and know nearly nothing about the game. I'm talking casual players. Likewise with logic for MOST people. Its a shame, but it is what it is. So when the 1 in 100 person talks about logic, and it being important, you're going to have 99 other people saying "he worships logic" or 'he only cares about being right". It sucks to live in a world in which the vast majority of people top out there. Oh well...

KMRUNOUT

Mr. Spock has spoken. Your verbose rigidity can be dangerous in life. As you get older you will understand, but for now as Emerson said "obstinate consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

 

[JB Cases]

This is a great point. I don't really think the general public is equipped to judge any sort of debate.

The democratic process has as its fundamental flaw that the people are governed by the average.

KMRUNOUT

Of course the judges would pool players.

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[BeiberLvr]

Playing eight ball. A weak player with no knowledge of kicking OR jumping is at the table, and hooked on the 8. You are coaching this player.

If your life depended on it (never mind the particulars), would you

A) Tell him where to kick at on the rail in order to make the 8 in the corner?

or

B) Give him the world's greatest jump cue, and tell him what he needs to do in order to get the CB over the impeding object ball?


Excuse my crude drawing.

 

[j_zippel]

Playing eight ball. A weak player with no knowledge of kicking OR jumping is at the table, and hooked on the 8. You are coaching this player.

If your life depended on it (never mind the particulars), would you

A) Tell him where to kick at on the rail in order to make the 8 in the corner?

or

B) Give him the world's greatest jump cue, and tell him what he needs to do in order to get the CB over the impeding object ball?


Excuse my crude drawing.

kick that in all day. Point your finger on the rail at the first diamond for them with center ball and kick it in. There's alot that can go wrong getting a player with no knowledge of jumping to make that shot

 

[Weber]

Playing eight ball. A weak player with no knowledge of kicking OR jumping is at the table, and hooked on the 8. You are coaching this player.

If your life depended on it (never mind the particulars), would you

A) Tell him where to kick at on the rail in order to make the 8 in the corner?

or

B) Give him the world's greatest jump cue, and tell him what he needs to do in order to get the CB over the impeding object ball?


Excuse my crude drawing.

Lol, kick it.

 

[pt109]

Playing eight ball. A weak player with no knowledge of kicking OR jumping is at the table, and hooked on the 8. You are coaching this player.

If your life depended on it (never mind the particulars), would you

A) Tell him where to kick at on the rail in order to make the 8 in the corner?

or

B) Give him the world's greatest jump cue, and tell him what he needs to do in order to get the CB over the impeding object ball?


Excuse my crude drawing.

You had to throw a weak player into the mix, huh?
It doesn't matter which method he uses....the man's going off.

Now, as a prop bet, I would kick at this with one hand against a decent player jumping.
....say...thirty shots apiece.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Mr. Spock has spoken. Your verbose rigidity can be dangerous in life. As you get older you will understand, but for now as Emerson said "obstinate consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds."

How old do I have to get?

And in what way am I rigid? (wait is this becoming a Viagra commercial?)

Since one of my majors in college was Philosophy, I'm well aware of the quote of Emerson that you almost got right. I think you were going for "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." SO um...did you know what that means when you quoted it? Because it really doesn't fit your post at all. It fits mine. The idea is that adhering to a way of thinking without understanding is a bad idea. One should trust their own understanding and not follow the herd, so to speak. That is where logic comes in...to test the quality of alternative ways of looking at things. This is the opposite of rigid. Likewise, Emerson goes on to say that to be great is to be misunderstood. For essentially the reasons you can infer from the previous quotation.

So I think what you mean is that while your post was a total swing and miss, I should not go out of my way to point this out to you. I half agree. Maybe tomorrow, I'll see it differently (I wonder if you get the Emerson reference there).

Cheers,

KMRUNOUT

 

[BeiberLvr]

You had to throw a weak player into the mix, huh?
It doesn't matter which method he uses....the man's going off.

Now, as a prop bet, I would kick at this with one hand against a decent player jumping.
....say...thirty shots apiece.

And why is that?

(All together now)...


Because kicking IS easier than jumping.

 

[pt109]

And why is that?

(All together now)...


Because kicking IS easier than jumping.

I'm not one of the posters in this thread that has been concerned with which method
requires more skill.....I don't care.
I just think that using jump cues are encouraging ugly shots.....

...I started on a golf course....we only used putters on the green....I worked at a private
course when I was a kid....a member was caught using his wedge on what should've been
a long putt....he was banned for life.
I have as much respect for pool tables as I have for greens.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Do you for some reason believe that the opposite is not true? I am certain I can set up 100's of kicks that are far easier than a jump in the same situation.

So what does this prove?

The entire rest of your post I agree with.

KMRUNOUT

I agree that I didn't put that as well as I'd like. What I meant to say was that when a jumpshot is available (obviously excluding the near impossible ones) you are frequently a favourite to make the ball, whereas kicking at it, with the intent to make it, is a lot harder. I am talking about shots that are not hanging in the pocket, or in a "big ball" position along the rail.

That does not really prove anything. Just putting it out there.