Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

[pt109]

Its a shame logic doesn't do much for you. There is limitless beauty within it.

Agreed, aesthetics are hard to quantify. I personally think a very purely hit jump shot is quite beautiful. I think almost all very well executed shots have a beauty to them.

As for the mugger, that is kind of shortsighted. What is logical depends on the muggers anticipated or desired outcome. If he thinks he might get caught, killing the victim isn't very logical if the goal is to avoid a longer jail sentence. He may be on video. Likewise the mugger my have moral objections towards murder but not towards theft. Just like anything else, the parameters need to be defined for any logic to be practically useful.

But just like the jmup vs kick debate, logic and beauty are not mutually exclusive. You can have both. In the vast infinity of existence, quite often they go hand in hand.

KMRUNOUT

I use logic all the time....got a pretty good lifetime record gambling.
But logic is a tool....not something to worship.

Now, if you had a beautiful table at your home....RKC set it up....
...do you really want a guest showing up with a jump cue?

 

[JB Cases]

I'm very curious...how the hell can you win a bet on a debate?
....who determines who won?

There have been debates going on that span generations, even centuries...
...with no sign of an agreement in sight

You let the audience decide by vote. Or a panel of judges decides.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[bad_hit]

"I can jump with a Meucci!" - (Joe Rogan's) Earl

My latest thought on this is that the jump cue rules need to be more specific and not so "all or nothing". What if you could only use a jump cue if you didn't shoot the previous shot (and blew position and hooked yourself), but rather someone played safe (and there was no good kick or position called more for a jump)?

What if there were specific, standard rules like this that prevented you from using it in all cases and only in certain spots. Obviously it'd have to be objective like "only if you didn't shoot the previous shot", and not "if the ball was blocking good kicking lanes" or something subjective like that.

 

[JB Cases]

I don't own a jump cue. I think they should be banned. I love the beauty and satisfaction that I get when I execute a 3 rail kick. I also like the expression on my opponents face when I do it and they think they have me locked up with an evil safety. I truly believe I could learn to jump well if I chose to but I'll bet the guys that jump would take a long long time to be proficient in kicking. It is easier to jump well than to kick well. I know I'm a traditionalist. I mourn the slow demise of 3 cushion. I think everyone now plays in bars. Have you ever seen a 3 cushion table in a bar? Maybe the game has evolved and I haven't. I'll take a poolroom with 9 footers over a bar with 7 footers every time. No question. I'll take the kick over the jump.

I get the same satisfaction when I make a great kick shot. And when I make a great jump shot.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[pt109]

:rotflmao1:

You let the audience decide by vote. Or a panel of judges decides.

:rotflmao1:
Ah, the democratic process....have you noticed some of the people that get elected?.....
...or juries like the one that let OJ walk?

I had a lifetime friend like you....he was a CPA and prided himself on his logic.
...we bet small money on hundreds of things...but every once in a while, he would want
to make a bet based on common sense......:scratchhead:
...I would tell him that I only make bets I can collect on....
...or be proven wrong, and learn something.

 

[supergreenman]

Allow me to wade in after not reading 14 pages of ban or not ban the jump cue for Mosconi Cup

Mosconi cup is on TV

Jump cues suck for the purists.
Jump cues are great for TV


Jump cues are great for TV - Jump cues suck for the purists = TV is good for pool

Therefore......

Get rid of purists

 

[Johnnyt]

Allow me to wade in after not reading 14 pages of ban or not ban the jump cue for Mosconi Cup

Mosconi cup is on TV

Jump cues suck for the purists.
Jump cues are great for TV


Jump cues are great for TV - Jump cues suck for the purists = TV is good for pool

Therefore......

Get rid of purists

Get rid of the purists. LMAO. Johnnyt

 

[Pfnatic]

It's silly watching pro players use an amateur helper cue.

I'd like to know how the outcome would have been if the players were not jumping with short cues and making hits or pocketing balls due to that.

Forget the jump cues, I think jump shots are silly. They make a lot of safety shots meaningless at the pro level. Pros are just going to jump their way out of it. Kicking requires way more skill and knowledge of angles to get a return safety. I would rather see pro players kick rather than watch them jump.

 

[pt109]

Forget the jump cues, I think jump shots are silly. They make a lot of safety shots meaningless at the pro level. Pros are just going to jump their way out of it. Kicking requires way more skill and knowledge of angles to get a return safety. I would rather see pro players kick rather than watch them jump.

Could be one of the reasons that Efren matches on YouTube get the most views...
....I've seen players miss getting snookers on Efren...I suspect it came from the
realization that when you hooked him, he often hooked you back.

Well, that and his personality....he is not a 'strutter'....and when he smiles, he seems to
be letting the audience in on the joke.

 

[KMRUNOUT]

I use logic all the time....got a pretty good lifetime record gambling.
But logic is a tool....not something to worship.

Now, if you had a beautiful table at your home....RKC set it up....
...do you really want a guest showing up with a jump cue?

I don't worship logic, but it is a tool that is used in most situations. As such it is a tool whose use should be at least learned, if not mastered, by everyone.

And as for people showing up with a jump cue? No problem. Any table I have would be there to play on. For the same reason, I would never buy a cue and put it in a glass case. My cue is nice and I love it, but it has dings all over it and it gets used. To play pool. I don't worry about it too much. Well executed jump shots seem to wear the cloth considerably less than a monster break shot. At your house, do you have to leave your break shot at home too?

Thing is, if you want to get at the truth, and discern the subtle distinctions between various thoughts and point of view, logic might be the best tool we have. It is not something to be feared or denigrated. I mean, not being very good with logic is one thing. Disliking logic is something else. Some people do both.

The thing is, in debate and discussion, when people say things that are illogical, it is kind of like trying to play pool with someone who not only 1) doesn't know how to play, but also 2) wants to argue with you about how to play. Most pool players are total hacks and know nearly nothing about the game. I'm talking casual players. Likewise with logic for MOST people. Its a shame, but it is what it is. So when the 1 in 100 person talks about logic, and it being important, you're going to have 99 other people saying "he worships logic" or 'he only cares about being right". It sucks to live in a world in which the vast majority of people top out there. Oh well...

KMRUNOUT

 

[Bbutler]

HAHA!! What a great example.

Let's compare two scenarios:

You are at pool league and you are about to give a time out to your weakest player. Equivalent to an APA 2. Assume the rules allow jumping. So, you have about 30 seconds or so to explain to the player where to hit the ball on the rail for a kick, whay english to use, etc. Likewise, you have the same period to tell them how to jump over the interfering ball. Suppose they have never attempted a jump shot, and never attempted a kick shot.

In which scenario are they more likely to hit the ball?

I have specifically had my APA 2 kick *IN* a ball on two different occasions, both 2 rails with some distance, because I told them exactly how to hit it. I don't think that person is very likely to make any sort of jump shot with any cue in the few seconds I spent telling them where to hit.

I guess the knowledge of where to kick came from me, who has plenty of years of experience at it. But the physical technique for kicking is simply far easier than for jumping.

Can someone be taught how to jump (clear a ball) in 5 minutes? Sure. Can everyone? No way. Not even close. Some people just can't do it. The technique is just not there. To be fair, those same people will have a lot of trouble learning anything in pool.

I think what the "it takes 5 minutes to learn how to jump" people really mean is that a player with a moderate amount of basic ability can be taught how to clear an interfering ball fairly easily. If that is all there is to jumping, well then, discussion over. But obviously there is far more to it than that.

KMRUNOUT

Oh my, the unintended hilarity of this post is nothing short of awesome. Please never stop posting.

 

[BeiberLvr]

There is something to be said about putting someone in an unkickable position.
Jump shots took the skill to do that right out of the equation.

Pool has suffered ever since.

Don't feel bad. I used to believe there were monsters in the closet too.

 

[pt109]

I don't worship logic, but it is a tool that is used in most situations. As such it is a tool whose use should be at least learned, if not mastered, by everyone.

And as for people showing up with a jump cue? No problem. Any table I have would be there to play on. For the same reason, I would never buy a cue and put it in a glass case. My cue is nice and I love it, but it has dings all over it and it gets used. To play pool. I don't worry about it too much. Well executed jump shots seem to wear the cloth considerably less than a monster break shot. At your house, do you have to leave your break shot at home too?

Thing is, if you want to get at the truth, and discern the subtle distinctions between various thoughts and point of view, logic might be the best tool we have. It is not something to be feared or denigrated. I mean, not being very good with logic is one thing. Disliking logic is something else. Some people do both.

The thing is, in debate and discussion, when people say things that are illogical, it is kind of like trying to play pool with someone who not only 1) doesn't know how to play, but also 2) wants to argue with you about how to play. Most pool players are total hacks and know nearly nothing about the game. I'm talking casual players. Likewise with logic for MOST people. Its a shame, but it is what it is. So when the 1 in 100 person talks about logic, and it being important, you're going to have 99 other people saying "he worships logic" or 'he only cares about being right". It sucks to live in a world in which the vast majority of people top out there. Oh well...

KMRUNOUT

I would like be clear about something.....I'm enjoying your posts....
...even if it makes my head hurt....

"I've never learnt a thing from a man who agreed with me."

You make me want to go rummaging around my book collection again.

...and, re home tables, I've advised some to play straight pool and one pocket on them...
....practice your break at the pool hall.
....some of them thanked me.

 

[Straightpool_99]

And yes, there is right and wrong in a conversation.
It is, when the subject is one that can be tested or proven correct with logic. Liking or disliking the jump cue, is not such a subject.
A statement like jumping is easier than kicking is not a true statement. It's not a matter of opinion it's a matter of fact.
As a general statement, it is not true. But for a large subset of situations it is. If a ball is hanging or very close to the pocket and the natural kicking lanes are open, then the kick may be easier or the same difficulty as the jump. If the object ball is in the middle of the table and there is some clutter on the table, then the jump will mostly be easier. Not only is making contact easier, but it is easier to both make the ball and to control the balls for a nice safety. Some shots are of course impossible to jump.
A statement that jumping causes people not to learn kicking is not a true statement. That can be your opinion but it is not backed up by fact.
If you are a good jumper, then learning how to kick is certainly less important, since many of the kicks deemed the most difficult can be overcome with the jump cue. But yes as a general statement it is not true.
there are dozens of videos on YouTube teaching how to kick. There are dozens of videos with kicking systems for sale. There are posters one can buy with kicking systems. Kicking systems have been around for more than 100 years and described in just about all the old books.
Did you ever wonder why there are so many in-depth studies on kicking, while jumping has very little in the way of litterature? Could it be because kicking is more difficult to master?

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+kick+in+pool&spfreload=1

People have this idea that kicking is some sort of mystical art which can only be learned by going off on on a journey to find a master willing to teach you if you are willing to put in hundreds of hours learning.
If you want to be favourite to make a ball or leaving a good safe (not just making contact), then yes it will be a long journey. A jump shot any C-player would be a favourite to make can be a tremendously difficult kick, especially with only a few balls on the table, for a critical safe, or with many on the table with blocked kicking lanes. Efren AMAZED seasoned professionals with his kicking ability when he became known internationally. His ability to kick safe, and making kicks was unheard of at the time. If this was so easy, why would the pros be so impressed by it?
Utter bullshit.
Well, that's like, just your opinion, man.
Kicking is a skill that can be learned in minutes, and trained to proficiency with a solid week of practice and the ability to count. Now the tiny nuances, knowing how to adjust for off angles, how to adjust for the cloth conditions, for the ball conditions - YES - that takes a LOT more practice - but Jeeze anyone who has EVER EVER EVER put there finger on the rail to tell someone where to aim for a kick knows how easy it is to kick - just learn where to aim for and shoot in a straight line. Try handing a jump cue to someone who never did it before at a critical time in a league match and see how much harder you have to work to get them to understand what they need to do to have any chance at a successful shot.

What's this obesession with league coaching? Obviously you cant teach someone to jump in 30 seconds on their first try if they've never or almost never tried it before. That is just insane and a stupid strawman. The point is that I, or any other thinking person could set up 100s of jumps that any C or D player would be a favourite to make, but as a kick you would need to be at a near professional level to be as consistent with. Sure some jumps are difficult, and some impossible, but for a majority of games this is not an even give and take. Jump shots, when available, are for the most part easier. You can choose to hit the ball full, for instance for a safe, and control the cueball and object ball easier than with a kick, which would have to be hit thinly and accurately for the same result. You can draw the ball, follow it, use sidespin... When you kick, there are often obstacles in the way of the natural kicking lanes. This is almost the rule, rather than the exeption, not only that, but you often need to hit the ball with an off-speed to achieve your results. No medium speed natural ball shot, in other words. Most systems are taught with one speed, or 2 speeds only, and most with only one kind of english or no spin. That won't work all of the time.

Ps. All the above is only factoring in using a dedicated jump cue. With playing cues only, the situation is different.

 

[billy]

And what you have said here is plainly evident of someone who may play pool well, may know some things about some things, but clearly has very little aptitude with logic and reasoning. I wonder if you are "not ignorant" enough to recognize that what you have submitted here bears no resemblance to a logic argument. That isn't an opinion. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just pointing out a simple fact.

This is probably what the poster was talking about that you replied to.

KMRUNOUT

My logic comes from years of running a top class pool room. You commented on one of my posts concerning my logic already but didn't faze you evidently.

The monster 9ball break shot as you called it does mark the table - true. But who is debating playing 9ball while eliminating the monster break?

This is about intentional flight of the cueball. Ever dawn on you that someone could get hit squarely and not recover from a stone to the head? My insurance policy wouldn't be so agreeable that I allow balls to be flying thru the air. Not to mention the trivial indentations of ball marks into my drywall. Someone could seriously be hurt.

The jump shot is barbaric. It has no place in such beautiful games as pool and snooker. Ask some of the snooker players turned pool players what they think of the shot. I'd say they'd say to ban it imo.

Learn how to beautifully find a rail. Efren is the greatest player I've ever seen and a premiere example. I've watched him countless times but have never seen him try to jump. Same goes for his comrades which I have to say are the best players in the world.

You wanted logic, well here's a sample of my version

The jump shot should be banned world wide. It makes a very skillful game less skillful.

As a proprietor it's absolutely absurd

And the shot is not allowed in APA like you may have insinuated in one of your posts so that comparison is futile

Ban the jump shot ...

Again this is just my opinion but appears I'm not alone. Enough said. Peace

 

[JB Cases]

This is one of the common arguments to get rid of it, but why do they jump instead of kick? I do think jumping is pretty easy if you are just trying for the hit but most of the good players I watch go for the jump cue because jumping gives them a better angle to actually make the ball rather than just kicking at it. It's not because they don't know how to kick, it's because they are taking a higher percentage shot in that case.

I'm not a good player but I do know how to kick fairly well ( because I suck and leave myself hooked often) but that being said it's a lot easier to make a ball if it's a simple jump then trying to kick it in. Most of the time on a kick I'm trying to kick through a a path with multiple balls and the jump I only have to clear one. This isn't even bringing up the equipment we have to play on in league. There are many times I would rather jump then deal with some of the dead rails we run into.

Because for some shots the jump is the right shot. For others the kick is the right shot.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[JB Cases]

I use logic all the time....got a pretty good lifetime record gambling.
But logic is a tool....not something to worship.

Now, if you had a beautiful table at your home....RKC set it up....
...do you really want a guest showing up with a jump cue?

Yes, on my table all legal equipment is alllowed. In fact they would have their choice of jump cues. Only on pool are some people ashamed of actually using the equipment to the fullest possible extent.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[JB Cases]

Forget the jump cues, I think jump shots are silly. They make a lot of safety shots meaningless at the pro level. Pros are just going to jump their way out of it. Kicking requires way more skill and knowledge of angles to get a return safety. I would rather see pro players kick rather than watch them jump.

Meaningless? Gee the Mosconi Cup was won because the winning player left a safety which the incoming player tried to shoot a jump-bank-combination which he then missed.

Hardly meaningless.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[JB Cases]

What's this obesession with league coaching? Obviously you cant teach someone to jump in 30 seconds on their first try if they've never or almost never tried it before. That is just insane and a stupid strawman. The point is that I, or any other thinking person could set up 100s of jumps that any C or D player would be a favourite to make, but as a kick you would need to be at a near professional level to be as consistent with. Sure some jumps are difficult, and some impossible, but for a majority of games this is not an even give and take. Jump shots, when available, are for the most part easier. You can choose to hit the ball full, for instance for a safe, and control the cueball and object ball easier than with a kick, which would have to be hit thinly and accurately for the same result. You can draw the ball, follow it, use sidespin... When you kick, there are often obstacles in the way of the natural kicking lanes. This is almost the rule, rather than the exeption, not only that, but you often need to hit the ball with an off-speed to achieve your results. No medium speed natural ball shot, in other words. Most systems are taught with one speed, or 2 speeds only, and most with only one kind of english or no spin. That won't work all of the time.

Ps. All the above is only factoring in using a dedicated jump cue. With playing cues only, the situation is different.

No, when you kick the path is most often not blocked by unnatural paths.

We can bet on that by having at large do the stats on several matches.

I never said jumping is inherently easier than kicking. Two different skills so it's a false choice to day that jumping causes people to not learn to kick.

There is no obsession with league coaching. It is merely an illustration that you can coach a player to perform a kick shot in a game situation far easier than you can coach them to perform a jump shot in the same situation.

And yes kicking systems don't cover every situation. But like jump cues they exist as a way to make more shots possible. A player who has a decent grasp on a good kicking system will have more successful outcomes when kicking than one who doesn't.

If you can set up a hundred shots where the kicking skill would need to be professional level I will not only prove that it's not true but I will set up a thousand kick shots where any C player has better than 50% to hit the ball.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[JB Cases]

My logic comes from years of running a top class pool room. You commented on one of my posts concerning my logic already but didn't faze you evidently.

The monster 9ball break shot as you called it does mark the table - true. But who is debating playing 9ball while eliminating the monster break?

This is about intentional flight of the cueball. Ever dawn on you that someone could get hit squarely and not recover from a stone to the head? My insurance policy wouldn't be so agreeable that I allow balls to be flying thru the air. Not to mention the trivial indentations of ball marks into my drywall. Someone could seriously be hurt.

The jump shot is barbaric. It has no place in such beautiful games as pool and snooker. Ask some of the snooker players turned pool players what they think of the shot. I'd say they'd say to ban it imo.

Learn how to beautifully find a rail. Efren is the greatest player I've ever seen and a premiere example. I've watched him countless times but have never seen him try to jump. Same goes for his comrades which I have to say are the best players in the world.

You wanted logic, well here's a sample of my version

The jump shot should be banned world wide. It makes a very skillful game less skillful.

As a proprietor it's absolutely absurd

And the shot is not allowed in APA like you may have insinuated in one of your posts so that comparison is futile

Ban the jump shot ...

Again this is just my opinion but appears I'm not alone. Enough said. Peace

Efron uses a jump cue now.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk