The hole card cam was what made poker popular.
10-ball may be hurting pool in America
- Thread starter sjm
- Start date
The hole card cam was what made poker popular.
I saw more run-outs in 8-ball than 9-ball . I saw the final day Efren won the world 8 at the Riviera. Saw Bustamante win it the next year . On the final day, the both missed maybe three balls each in three games .
The key to the pros running out is getting a shot on the first ball .
When they have good shot at the first ball, they are likely to run out .
It's a lot easier to get a shot on the first ball in 8-ball.
They had the slow cloth at Hard Times for the qualifier . But, Dennis and Ralph Soquet just ran racks like they were nothing . And those pockets were tighter than Diamond's standard pockets .
The key to stopping them is to make the first ball a tough one to get to.
Besides making the break tough.
Well first of all I'm glad it was Stu who posted this. His reputation in the game is one that's respected so hopefully the observation is taken seriously.
I agree with him, I think it should be 9 ball as well. Many here have commented on 8 ball being their choice due to the publics recognition of it. Then again 8 ball is the one game most serious players never took seriously, it's far too easy.
As RR stated Texas Express 9 ball is the best thing that ever happened to pool as far as garnering public interest during its heyday. It has the perfect mix of skill with a touch of luck for Joe six pack and is easy to understand & learn.
I agree with him, I think it should be 9 ball as well. Many here have commented on 8 ball being their choice due to the publics recognition of it. Then again 8 ball is the one game most serious players never took seriously, it's far too easy.
As RR stated Texas Express 9 ball is the best thing that ever happened to pool as far as garnering public interest during its heyday. It has the perfect mix of skill with a touch of luck for Joe six pack and is easy to understand & learn.
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Yes, but they came out together. Poker was never even seen on TV, 'til Hold'em, and showing the hole cards came along.
Yes, but they came out together. Poker was never even seen on TV, 'til Hold'em, and showing the hole cards came along.
It was actually. Just not as much. Probably due to lack of a hold card cam.
I believe most that say 10 ball is easier than 9 ball are comparing MIH 10 ball with a new type template, easy table, 10 ball counts on the break, luck a ball in while kicking counts, plus, 6 of the best in the world . That is in no way 10 ball. Johnnyt
PS: Top 1st and 2nd tier pros should be playing 15 ball call shot rotation anyhow.
PS: Top 1st and 2nd tier pros should be playing 15 ball call shot rotation anyhow.
It's a little disappointing to me that Joe Tucker's American Rotation hasn't become more popular.
Jayson racked them with a triangle after the last match to show a couple of the patrons that the same balls were on paths to the pocket with or without the template and proceeded to make the banked ball and both balls behind the 1 and played shape on the 1ball....
If you have watched Joe Tucker's videos he shows the ball paths and 5 balls have a shot at going to a pocket and if you can control the 1ball like Jayson or Shane you may have 6 of 10 heading to a pocket.....
The templates make racking consistent and fast compared to a normal rack but the better players will take the time to get similar consistency when they rack their own... Since 9 and 10ball are both broken because the rack/break has been solved we need as a country to switch to alternating breaks like the Asians and Europeans or institute break boxes for both games, center for 9 and wings for 10... Had they made the player break from the wings in the 1-Ball MIH it would have made a huge difference in the layouts.....
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9-ball/One Pocket
Nine Ball is definitely a better game to watch but it seems in the room where I play there is a lot interest from younger players of One Pocket. I am hoping that we are entering a transition to a more skilled game. I know its boring to watch but skill level needed to play it is unmistakable.
Nine Ball is definitely a better game to watch but it seems in the room where I play there is a lot interest from younger players of One Pocket. I am hoping that we are entering a transition to a more skilled game. I know its boring to watch but skill level needed to play it is unmistakable.
This is hilarious! Naw, I'm not angered by this post.
I'm just confused.
First, nine ball gets a bad rap because it's "too easy."
Now, ten ball is getting "tired" because it's (break is) "too predictable."
So, let's go back to nine ball?
High Accu-stats numbers are an indication of a problem?
Well, my opinion on that is I think we are not looking at the root issue here:
The game has become much more of a finesse game.
Fast cloth, shiny balls, good rails, and yes, predicable racks by way of these plastic "franken-racks."
In short, the games have become more streamlined. Not because of the games
themselves, but with how the playing conditions have changed.
To put blame on the games is completely laughable.
Also, sir, the fact that you prefer to watch nine ball on a 9 footer is STILL an opinion, sjm. Despite what you write at the end there.
The MIH happen event was winner break with a small crowd in a very quiet environment. If they were playing nine ball IMO the results would be similar, USA players seem to be better momentum players and struggle with the pressure of alternate breaks. Especially with added team pressure. Euro's have better fundamentals that do not crack as much under pressure and are used to the alternate break format. I wonder how much different the Mosconi cup would be if it was winner break 10 ball or even 9 ball? I know it would not be as pressure packed and exciting as it is now!
That and the ability to play poker on the internet. I remember watching the WSOP at Binions every year because if fell on the same dates as the old BCA nationals. This was before the hole card cam and the big tournament would field around 600 players.
While I see the point I have to disagree. All I see by this is what has always hurt pool/pool players in my opinion, and that's being punished for getting better. At every aspect of pool as soon as it is found to now start to be too easy "during this one event mind you" it becomes a problem and needs to be changed.
Pool has always been for "pool players" here in america and we will never see they type of attention as overseas, the public has no clue and is not watching pool so it has not suffered any from any change in 9 or 10 ball, only we notice the difference. And at that part it comes down to personal preference, "oh i don't want to see packages and one guy shooting" "oh i love seeing rack string together, i hate alternate break" "that race is too short" "that race is too long" when does it stop.
What's hurting pool in america is not having anyone to associate pool too and not having a game that the public can relate to. No one knows who Earl is much less Shane but they knew willie and fats at one time. It's bee a thousand years since we've had more than one play putting up the fight for the US and i feel for Shane having that role, It's like what Efren felt but that was because of who he was but there were still many others to lean on from that country and continue to be.
Should pool every become some kind of event here in the state I agree that it should be 8 ball, maybe even on bar tables, as for what we are more familiar with which are the Tours, Big Events and Invitationals gesh just let it be, we can have it all our way every time hell we already have different versions of 10 ball all because someone didn't like having the shot passed back.
No consistency here in the states. Today or tomorrow Shave quits I would love to see what happens next, oh maybe we should handicap pro events for those with less than effective breaks or jumps or kicks or banks or maybe even because they don't play much anymore.
Pool has always been for "pool players" here in america and we will never see they type of attention as overseas, the public has no clue and is not watching pool so it has not suffered any from any change in 9 or 10 ball, only we notice the difference. And at that part it comes down to personal preference, "oh i don't want to see packages and one guy shooting" "oh i love seeing rack string together, i hate alternate break" "that race is too short" "that race is too long" when does it stop.
What's hurting pool in america is not having anyone to associate pool too and not having a game that the public can relate to. No one knows who Earl is much less Shane but they knew willie and fats at one time. It's bee a thousand years since we've had more than one play putting up the fight for the US and i feel for Shane having that role, It's like what Efren felt but that was because of who he was but there were still many others to lean on from that country and continue to be.
Should pool every become some kind of event here in the state I agree that it should be 8 ball, maybe even on bar tables, as for what we are more familiar with which are the Tours, Big Events and Invitationals gesh just let it be, we can have it all our way every time hell we already have different versions of 10 ball all because someone didn't like having the shot passed back.
No consistency here in the states. Today or tomorrow Shave quits I would love to see what happens next, oh maybe we should handicap pro events for those with less than effective breaks or jumps or kicks or banks or maybe even because they don't play much anymore.
Small bone of contention... The "Frankenrack" We used at the MIH event was my Frankenstein and it is the Accu-Rack... It's made of polyester and mimics the friction of the cloth so the balls will react differently at different speeds... The material choice and geometry make it a little different animal which is why most of the professionals are behind us as the template of choice because it's not a 100% trickshot.. Darren and Jayson are on record that these are the best templates on the market period....
As far as what we saw at the event.....
Shane and Shaw broke the balls the best of the group because of the speeds they chose and the precision of the hits. I would have expected them to have broken the balls the best with or without a template.. We had several matches where some of the players were missing the break and being punished like they are supposed to....
Darren broke poorly pretty much the entire time... His best string of breaks happened when he needed them most and that was in his match with Shane....
Kevin actually missed the break all but 1 time in his last match... Earl had to resort to his sumo stance to make a ball on the break and it only worked marginally at best....
Thorsten broke pretty well but not to the same level as Shaw or Shane....
Europe and Asia have been on templates for a decade and they go alternating break... I think for us to compete this is the format we have to move to so that the pressure and format don't hinder our players when they venture out abroad...
The only other option is break box designations to make the break harder to control........
Stu,
I think you make some really good points here, but I am not sure that moving to 9ball solves your problems, as the wing ball is dead in the corner (I know you know this). Perhaps, you meant to suggest that we should move to 9 ball, whilst racking the 9 ball on the spot? Even still, the pros will learn that break as well. It appeared (at least to me) that both sides at the Mosconi Cup broke better this year than last.
Is it our responsibility to make a game for the purpose of developing our players? I think the players have the responsibility to develop their own game. If they need work on moving in 9ball, they should match up games where that will take place. SVB took the time to master the magic rack 10ball break, he could do the same with kicking...if he wanted to. The same goes for all the American players.
I think it is important to realize that these international events move to alternating breaks to neutralize players that are far superior at breaking, so as to make closer matches. The break shot is a shot that will occur in every game 10 ball or 9 ball. I feel like it has always been the case that some players break way better than most of the field (SVB -10ball, Corey - 9ball, etc.). I am not sure these alternating break formats really help us determine the better player, because it punishes players who have worked to master the most important shot. I think tournaments should reward those who develop skill, not punish them.
It seems to me that as pool was moving from 9ball to 10ball, SVB locked himself in a room a came out a master of the 10ball break, and now most are scrambling to keep up. Ruslan played him on the condition that he break outside the box. I do hope for something standard--that is not always changing. Whatever it is, pros have the responsibility to develop their skill to compete. I don't think we should be altering the rules to help them. The good ones should win, and the bad ones should lose.
Also, no matter how we break, the Filipinos are always among the elite. What are they doing? As best I can tell, they are in constant action.
kollegedave
Maybe 8-Ball should be played in a rotational manner too. We play that way a lot.
You can play 1-7, 9-15 basic rotational or 1-7, 15-9 that's "outside in" or 7-1, 9-15 that's "inside out". When your suit of balls is made, it's your turn at the 8-Ball. You can also add the 1 & 15 in the side pockets, as an option.
This game turns into rotation, banks & one pocket ..... real quick.
You can play 1-7, 9-15 basic rotational or 1-7, 15-9 that's "outside in" or 7-1, 9-15 that's "inside out". When your suit of balls is made, it's your turn at the 8-Ball. You can also add the 1 & 15 in the side pockets, as an option.
This game turns into rotation, banks & one pocket ..... real quick.
I understand all the discussion about the break. The thing is though, the break was never intended to be a skill shot. It was supposed to be a random event, like a card shuffle, that kept the game interesting and made each rack unique.
It's appropriate and expected that players work hard to master it, but it does detract from the way the game was originally designed to be played.
It's appropriate and expected that players work hard to master it, but it does detract from the way the game was originally designed to be played.
