Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

[KMRUNOUT]

I agree that I didn't put that as well as I'd like. What I meant to say was that when a jumpshot is available (obviously excluding the near impossible ones) you are frequently a favourite to make the ball, whereas kicking at it, with the intent to make it, is a lot harder. I am talking about shots that are not hanging in the pocket, or in a "big ball" position along the rail.

That does not really prove anything. Just putting it out there.

Ok I hear ya.

After participating in this thread, I was thinking about it while playing a 10 Ball tourney Friday night. Jump cues are allowed. There were numerous situations in which I made decisions one way or the other whether to jump or kick. One in particular stood out to me. I had an interfering ball about 1 foot or so away, and the object ball was probably 4 or 5 feet from the cue ball. It was about a foot from the corner pocket, and would have been a moderate cut. I feel that I almost certainly would have hit the ball, but I was nowhere near a favorite to make it. Likewise, I just didn't like the layout much even if I did make it. It was on the one ball but my opponent had missed so I couldn't push. Instead, I elected to kick 2 rails behind the 1 ball and send it down table behind a pack of interfering balls. My opponent hit the one, but left a shot and I ran out. In another situation, my opponent played safe, but left me basically straight in with stop shot position for a jump, so I jumped, made it, and ran out.

Each shot was appropriate for the given situation. I happen to be quite good at jumping. But sometimes the jump is just the wrong shot. It isn't like I neglect kicking. Actually, I practice kicking plenty, whereas I pretty much never practice jumping. If you compared me to a pro, I'm probably better relatively at jumping. But this in no way resulted in me being a slouch at kicking. I seem to kick balls in more than my fair share, and somehow have a high degree of "getting lucky" when I kick ;-) Seriously, the "luck" is the result of a lot of years paying attention to kicking and its results. I've really only owned a jump cue for a few years. I'm not really sure why I'm as good at it as I am. That being said, however, I wouldn't mind in the least if jump cues were outlawed. I just don't care. If they are allowed, I'm gonna make sure I can use them to the fullest. If they're not, that's OK too...I'm pretty good at kicking.

KMRUNOUT

 

[JB Cases]

You had to throw a weak player into the mix, huh?
It doesn't matter which method he uses....the man's going off.

Now, as a prop bet, I would kick at this with one hand against a decent player jumping.
....say...thirty shots apiece.

Of course because this is one of the examples where the kick is easier than the jump shot.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

[pt109]

Of course because this is one of the examples where the kick is easier than the jump shot.

Not sure what that has to do with me not liking people bouncing the balls off the slate.

 

[Bbutler]

And why is that?

(All together now)...


Because kicking IS easier than jumping.

Put the three balls in the middle of the table.

 

[JB Cases]

Not sure what that has to do with me not liking people bouncing the balls off the slate.

For the prop bet.....you offered to bet this and I said of course because this is one of the shots where kicking is easier than jumping.

Who wouldn't bet it. If you jump this 30 times you might dog it 10x even if you're a good jumper. But an apa2 who can hit the ball in straight line has a great chance of making this ball when told where to aim.

 

[Runner]

I'll check in again...

You don't really see guys doing a beautiful curve shot or mild Masse' shot any more.. it's all jumping.

Efren?... I've seen him use a jump cue ONCE... the outcome wasn't great, he made a face, stuck out his tongue and didn't use it again that night.. all kicks after that. To be fair,
there's probably no one that kicks like Efren... THAT'S something to aspire to, and what I think real pool is all about.

"DID YOU SAY SOMETHING ABOUT A 'JUMP' CUE?, EDDIE?"

 

[JB Cases]

I'll check in again...

You don't really see guys doing a beautiful curve shot or mild Masse' shot any more.. it's all jumping.

Efren?... I've seen him use a jump cue ONCE... the outcome wasn't great, he made a face, stuck out his tongue and didn't use it again that night.. all kicks after that. To be fair,
there's probably no one that kicks like Efren... THAT'S something to aspire to, and what I think real pool is all about.

"DID YOU SAY SOMETHING ABOUT A 'JUMP' CUE?, EDDIE?"

I think you must be watching different matches. I see masse' shots all the time when it's the right shot.

And jump-masse' shots too.

I don't know why you think people don't aspire to kick like Efren AND also to be proficient at jumping.

I certainly don't see that around Oklahoma City. All the decent players here know how to kick and jump.

"I said it's my turn to shoot Fats, when it's your turn you can ***** about jump-cues, but when it's my turn I will shoot the shot I want to shoot the way I want to shoot it."

 

[Runner]

I think you must be watching different matches. I see masse' shots all the time when it's the right shot.

And jump-masse' shots too.

I don't know why you think people don't aspire to kick like Efren AND also to be proficient at jumping.

I certainly don't see that around Oklahoma City. All the decent players here know how to kick and jump.

"I said it's my turn to shoot Fats, when it's your turn you can ***** about jump-cues, but when it's my turn I will shoot the shot I want to shoot the way I want to shoot it."

I'm referring to watching Efren live, in SoCal... not video.
Never said I think people don't aspire to kick AND jump... just that especially the younger guys think jump FIRST. Haven't seen KO shoot a curve shot, ever.

"You don't jump much, do you fat man?..."
"That's what the game's all about, Eddie!"

 

[hang-the-9]

This. So many bemoan the jump shot and how easy it is, simply because the pros make it look easy. The jump shot forces higher quality safety play too which is a good thing.

It's not the jump shot that's the issue, it's the short cue that makes it so easy a 10 year old can do it in 10 minutes or less. As I said, I have witnessed kids get their first jump cue and in 3-4-5 tries go over a ball with it. Everyone complains how large the pockets are for the pros they need to play on 4.25" or 4" pockets or it's not a pro game, lets play 10 ball, lets play on 10' tables 9 footers are for amateurs, yet a gaffe cue that enables people who don't shave yet to look like a jumping pro are OK? I don't get it. It's like watching people drive across 3 lanes without using their blinker. People do it, I just don't get where in their brain they get the idea to. On one hand it's "game is too easy, we need to make it harder" on the other hand it's "lets make jump shots easier". Eh? There is a Bloom County cartoon I remember from a while ago, about a farmer test. Opus said "say these lines without laughing". "Keep those government meddlers out of my business" "Hurry up with my subsidy check". We either want the pro game to be actually a pro game or we want them to shoot jump shots with goofy cues to make it easy. You can't ever say "play better safes" there is no way you can lock up a cue ball .1 inches from other balls to prevent a jump with a jump cue every time, there should be a good enough safe where you are forced to kick because you can't get over a ball with your playing cue not because you use equipment to make the game easy.

I see it all the time, players pull out their shiny new jump cues and go "look what this cue can do". It's not what THEY can do, it's what their money can do to replace skill.

Only thing I don't like much about jumping now is that LD shafts are absolutely horrible at it, and many people use them. That's a bit of an issue, but hey, it's a pro game that should be tough like the tight pockets we all seem to want.

 

[hang-the-9]

The only problem is, do you allow a player to use their break cue? Boyes used a full length cue to make a spectacular jump draw shot. The cue had a phenolic tip that allows a much easier jump shot. That opens the realm of shorter break cues. Perhaps a lighter 54" break cue with phenolic tip.

Here is where I am in a bit of a situation with my distaste for jump cues, the LD shafts are really tough to jump with, to the point that even if you can jump with a full cue with a regular shaft using your playing cue with an LD shat makes that jump really a last resort and you need quite a bit of space to clear the ball. Which now makes jumping with your playing cue harder than intended.

A good compromise would be to allow jump cues, or rather a cue to jump with, but with the same length restrictions as your playing cues, meaning near 58" as a minimum length, and with a weight limit. The thing with the jump cues is that it's not only size but weight that makes them easy to use. To make a jump shot be a skill shot again the jump cue should be pretty much the same specs as your regular cue but with a standard shaft. A longish light cue used for jumping is still making it too easy to execute a shot that should be hard. To make a kick, it's easy to hit the rail, but to judge where to hit it, with what spin, if follow or draw should be used, how hard to hit it, that is all what makes the kicks harder. For a jump shot as it is with jump cues, all you need to know is where to buy one and you are pretty much guaranteed at least a good hit if you have any skill at all or put 30 minutes into practice with it.

 

[Runner]

It's not the jump shot that's the issue, it's the short cue that makes it so easy a 10 year old can do it in 10 minutes or less. As I said, I have witnessed kids get their first jump cue and in 3-4-5 tries go over a ball with it. Everyone complains how large the pockets are for the pros they need to play on 4.25" or 4" pockets or it's not a pro game, lets play 10 ball, lets play on 10' tables 9 footers are for amateurs, yet a gaffe cue that enables people who don't shave yet to look like a jumping pro are OK? I don't get it. It's like watching people drive across 3 lanes without using their blinker. People do it, I just don't get where in their brain they get the idea to. On one hand it's "game is too easy, we need to make it harder" on the other hand it's "lets make jump shots easier". Eh? There is a Bloom County cartoon I remember from a while ago, about a farmer test. Opus said "say these lines without laughing". "Keep those government meddlers out of my business" "Hurry up with my subsidy check". We either want the pro game to be actually a pro game or we want them to shoot jump shots with goofy cues to make it easy. You can't ever say "play better safes" there is no way you can lock up a cue ball .1 inches from other balls to prevent a jump with a jump cue every time, there should be a good enough safe where you are forced to kick because you can't get over a ball with your playing cue not because you use equipment to make the game easy.

I see it all the time, players pull out their shiny new jump cues and go "look what this cue can do". It's not what THEY can do, it's what their money can do to replace skill.

Only thing I don't like much about jumping now is that LD shafts are absolutely horrible at it, and many people use them. That's a bit of an issue, but hey, it's a pro game that should be tough like the tight pockets we all seem to want.

Spot on, Hang....

No short cues... jump with your break cue. I've seen kids who can't make a bridge or pot a ball jumping with a short stick with a 15mm phenolic tip, beating up the table, because it's a showoff move. Learn to really shoot pool, curve shots, kicking, banking,
etc and jump with your standard length break cue.

 

[JB Cases]

I'm referring to watching Efren live, in SoCal... not video.
Never said I think people don't aspire to kick AND jump... just that especially the younger guys think jump FIRST. Haven't seen KO shoot a curve shot, ever.

"You don't jump much, do you fat man?..."
"That's what the game's all about, Eddie!"

Again I think you are watching different matches. I don't think it would matter to the purists if I posted video of Efren jumping or Ko shooting masse' and kick shots.

"You don't use jump cues because you are a purist? That's just another excuse for losing and losers have a million of them....winners learn to use all the available tools to the highest degree possible."

 

[JB Cases]

Spot on, Hang....

No short cues... jump with your break cue. I've seen kids who can't make a bridge or pot a ball jumping with a short stick with a 15mm phenolic tip, beating up the table, because it's a showoff move. Learn to really shoot pool, curve shots, kicking, banking,
etc and jump with your standard length break cue.

Where and when? Maybe in 1995 but now there are no jump cues with 15mm tips.

I guess it chaffs the ass of "purists" when a "kid" who can't make three balls kicks a shot in by hitting the cue ball in the general direction.

 

[JB Cases]

Here is where I am in a bit of a situation with my distaste for jump cues, the LD shafts are really tough to jump with, to the point that even if you can jump with a full cue with a regular shaft using your playing cue with an LD shat makes that jump really a last resort and you need quite a bit of space to clear the ball. Which now makes jumping with your playing cue harder than intended.

A good compromise would be to allow jump cues, or rather a cue to jump with, but with the same length restrictions as your playing cues, meaning near 58" as a minimum length, and with a weight limit. The thing with the jump cues is that it's not only size but weight that makes them easy to use. To make a jump shot be a skill shot again the jump cue should be pretty much the same specs as your regular cue but with a standard shaft. A longish light cue used for jumping is still making it too easy to execute a shot that should be hard. To make a kick, it's easy to hit the rail, but to judge where to hit it, with what spin, if follow or draw should be used, how hard to hit it, that is all what makes the kicks harder. For a jump shot as it is with jump cues, all you need to know is where to buy one and you are pretty much guaranteed at least a good hit if you have any skill at all or put 30 minutes into practice with it.

Not even close. I have personally sold more jump cues than anyone in this forum. I have taught hundreds of people to jump who had NO CHANCE to jump a ball with any jump cue before I corrected their form and taught them the proper technique.

If all you do is put in 30 minutes of practice and think you're going to get a good hit and good result you will be selling out far more than you want to.

 

[JB Cases]

It's not the jump shot that's the issue, it's the short cue that makes it so easy a 10 year old can do it in 10 minutes or less. As I said, I have witnessed kids get their first jump cue and in 3-4-5 tries go over a ball with it. Everyone complains how large the pockets are for the pros they need to play on 4.25" or 4" pockets or it's not a pro game, lets play 10 ball, lets play on 10' tables 9 footers are for amateurs, yet a gaffe cue that enables people who don't shave yet to look like a jumping pro are OK? I don't get it. It's like watching people drive across 3 lanes without using their blinker. People do it, I just don't get where in their brain they get the idea to. On one hand it's "game is too easy, we need to make it harder" on the other hand it's "lets make jump shots easier". Eh? There is a Bloom County cartoon I remember from a while ago, about a farmer test. Opus said "say these lines without laughing". "Keep those government meddlers out of my business" "Hurry up with my subsidy check". We either want the pro game to be actually a pro game or we want them to shoot jump shots with goofy cues to make it easy. You can't ever say "play better safes" there is no way you can lock up a cue ball .1 inches from other balls to prevent a jump with a jump cue every time, there should be a good enough safe where you are forced to kick because you can't get over a ball with your playing cue not because you use equipment to make the game easy.

I see it all the time, players pull out their shiny new jump cues and go "look what this cue can do". It's not what THEY can do, it's what their money can do to replace skill.

Only thing I don't like much about jumping now is that LD shafts are absolutely horrible at it, and many people use them. That's a bit of an issue, but hey, it's a pro game that should be tough like the tight pockets we all seem to want.

And when a complete beginner draws their ball table length does that burn you up to?

Using side spin is nearly impossible without chalk. Yet no one complains about the use of chalk.

Why not? Well for one reason chalk has been around since before all of us were born. For the other reason we can't imagine playing without it and all the shots that chalk makes possible.

The jump cue makes the physical act of jumping easier than with a full cue. It doesn't make the shot for you. The shooter STILL has to control everything about the shot, speed, spin, trajectory, aim, etc....

I can have any ten year old kicking in five minutes.

 

[hang-the-9]

And when a complete beginner draws their ball table length does that burn you up to?

Using side spin is nearly impossible without chalk. Yet no one complains about the use of chalk.

Why not? Well for one reason chalk has been around since before all of us were born. For the other reason we can't imagine playing without it and all the shots that chalk makes possible.

The jump cue makes the physical act of jumping easier than with a full cue. It doesn't make the shot for you. The shooter STILL has to control everything about the shot, speed, spin, trajectory, aim, etc....

I can have any ten year old kicking in five minutes.

If someone made a cue that made kicks easier, I'd be against that also. You can show a 10 year old how to kick, but you won't be using some trick kick cue will you? You will be using the diamonds, which are there as part of the equipment.

I keep re-stating the same facts which most ignore. I can't name a single pro that likes jump cues, they tolerate them because others use them, but I bet not a one will boycott a tournament that made them illegal to use. Using chalk is what made pool the game it is from the days when it was a mace used to shove a ball in a hole. If we want that game, then I guess chalk is also bad for pool. There is nothing in the game that makes a hard shot so easy as a jump cue, and certainly nothing in the game that makes an impossible shot possible like a jump cue does when people hop over a ball an inch from the obstruction.

I don't get impressed by someone driving a Ferrari when I know their dad paid for it, and I won't be impressed if someone jumps a cue ball with a jump cue for the same reason. They did not earn it. They did not get the skill for the shot, the skill came from the trick cue. It may be harder to jump and pocket a ball and get position or a safe of the hit, but it's way way easier with a jump cue than without, and in some cases it's impossible without a short light cue. There is no argument that can be made against that.
Maybe in another generation or two the jump cue will be as accepted as changing clubs in golf, but then we may as well go to 5" pockets for pro events if we want to make things easier.

 

[BeiberLvr]

If someone made a cue that made kicks easier, I'd be against that also. You can show a 10 year old how to kick, but you won't be using some trick kick cue will you? You will be using the diamonds, which are there as part of the equipment.

I keep re-stating the same facts which most ignore. I can't name a single pro that likes jump cues, they tolerate them because others use them, but I bet not a one will boycott a tournament that made them illegal to use. Using chalk is what made pool the game it is from the days when it was a mace used to shove a ball in a hole. If we want that game, then I guess chalk is also bad for pool. There is nothing in the game that makes a hard shot so easy as a jump cue, and certainly nothing in the game that makes an impossible shot possible like a jump cue does when people hop over a ball an inch from the obstruction.

I don't get impressed by someone driving a Ferrari when I know their dad paid for it, and I won't be impressed if someone jumps a cue ball with a jump cue for the same reason. They did not earn it. They did not get the skill for the shot, the skill came from the trick cue. It may be harder to jump and pocket a ball and get position or a safe of the hit, but it's way way easier with a jump cue than without, and in some cases it's impossible without a short light cue. There is no argument that can be made against that.
Maybe in another generation or two the jump cue will be as accepted as changing clubs in golf, but then we may as well go to 5" pockets for pro events if we want to make things easier.

Yes, it's easier to jump a ball with a jump cue vs a regular cue.

It's also easier to kick than it is to jump. The ONLY hard part about kicking is knowing where to kick.

Maybe we need to ban kicking.

 

[trob]

YOU DAMN KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN! I've never seen a group of people who resist change and evolution like pool players. Hell 20 plus years of people wearing gloves when they play and it still deemed unacceptable and users are made fun of by many. Pool deserves to be the small nitch game it is because it's players won't let it grow.

 

[philly]

Yes, it's easier to jump a ball with a jump cue vs a regular cue.

It's also easier to kick than it is to jump. The ONLY hard part about kicking is knowing where to kick.

Maybe we need to ban kicking.

The only hard part about kicking is knowing where to kick. You said it all. Don't know how to kick? Then jump. It's too tough to learn how to kick. I think I'll jump. Everybody talks about fundamentals. Kicking is a fundamental. There are rails on the table for a reason. Learn to kick. I would love to get these chronic jumpers on a 3 cushion table. If you can't kick you really are not playing pool. Guess I'm a purist.

 

[philly]

YOU DAMN KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN! I've never seen a group of people who resist change and evolution like pool players. Hell 20 plus years of people wearing gloves when they play and it still deemed unacceptable and users are made fun of by many. Pool deserves to be the small nitch game it is because it's players won't let it grow.

In my mind jumping is a gimmick. Sorry. Learn to kick. It's always been part of the game. The best players know how to use the rails. The table is littered with triangles. Use them. Now get off of my lawn.