Get rid of jump cues for Mosconi Cup

[JB Cases]

My wife is a competitive swimmer. She wore the RZR suit at a meet a few years ago before they were banned from competition. She swam record times for her age group, and posted times that were near what she would do when she was in university, and she was 39 at the time. The suits are ridiculously expensive, and only last a few races. She said they were an unfair advantage against people who either couldn't fit in them (they aren't one size fits all), or couldn't afford them. She's gone back to a faster suit, but not quite as fast as the RZR.

There were drivers that manufacturers made that had a COR of .860. The PGA/USGA tested them, and banned them from competition. They were allowing for longer drives for golfers. Professionals were getting more distance than ever before.

There was a new hockey puck design that had raised dimples on the flats, near the edges. It made for smoother passes and less tumbling pucks. It also increased the speed of shots by about 10%. The design was rejected by the NHL, as they were concerned about maintaining the integrity of the game.

Sometimes, things get rejected to maintain the integrity of the game. Am I a fan of the jump shot? There are times when jumping the cueball can be used to play shape. I think that a playing cue is a playing cue. Unless you've lost a tip, or something has happened to your cue, you should play with one cue. If you want to carry a break cue, so that your playing cue doesn't absorb punishment, then use a break cue. After that, I see no needs for shot specific cues. If you can't make the shot with your player, learn how, or get a different cue that suits your playing ability. Sacrifices are made in every single sport, with regards to equipment. Pool should be no different.

Great if the governing bodies of those sports deemed those items unfair for the sport then that's their call.

our governing bodies, the ones that count, have ruled on jump cues 20 years ago. The point is moot at this point because they are allowed in world competition. Any promoter or room owner that bans them is handicapping their players against the world's elite players.

That's the bottom line.

And as mentioned previously, different "regular" cues have differing "jumpability". You could be the best full cue jumper on earth and I can make you look like an APA 1.5 by switching your cue. The cue i hand you will have been used to win multiple world championships and you won't be able to jump anything with it.

That's the dirty little secret about full cue jumping - while it's clearly a skill, not all cues are suited to the shot and so promoting the idea that a player is restricted to the cue that they start a game with will only lead to homogenizing playing cues until all of them have a roughly equal amount of "jumpability". Players will be forced to compromise and accept pool cues that don't play the way they like just so they are handicapped by an inability to jump when they need to.

 

[lfigueroa]

Is the RAZR suit available to all competitors? Yes it is.

Does it do the swimming? No it doesnt.

A self-correcting ball on the other hand alters the shot after the ball was struck. That should not be allowed.

The RZR gives the swimmer greater buoyancy and makes them unnaturally fast in water -- just as a jump cue gives the player greater capability to jump and lets them escape from situations they might otherwise not be able to. And just like a jump cue, a self correcting golf ball, alters the shot.

Both these are banned by their respective sports for good reason. Hopefully, jump cues will join their ilk.

Lou Figueroa

 

[pt109]

This whole discussion is pure entertainment. The idea of banning jump cues might want to be looked into ..... once pool games like 9 and 10 ball are CALL SHOT AND CALL SAFETY. Really, you want to play flukes ie slop and ban jump cues..... hilarious.

Sooo...call shots, huh?

...you don't like guys like Efren playing shots that have multiple outcomes built in?
......you think he should have to play as dumb as people he can give the last four to?

How about snooker, one pocket, and carombola?.....
...they should be played in a more pedestrian manner?

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Find me ONE that has a standard leather tip. No Samsaras or other modified leather tips.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8rvRHZ1sZo
Larry Nevel with the X breaker - jump version, G10 tip. Sorry, but this is retarded. Since when is 1mm from FROZEN not a good safe??

I've had this debate with people before. I put a phenolic tip on a 14oz sneaky pete, and an Elkmaster on a Bunjee jumper. The weight and taper had nothing to do with which cue jumped better. The sneaky pete won on the majority of jump shots. In fact, a house cue without a tip outperformed the Bunjee with an Elkmaster on long jump shots. So it's DEFINITELY the tip. Argue all you want.

Undoubtedly Larry Nevel's skill had nothing to do with making that shot. I would assume you could post a similar video given how its definitely the tip? (X Breaker wasn't G10 btw. It was specifically marketed as being harder than G10.)

KMRUNOUT

 

[JB Cases]

The RZR gives the swimmer greater buoyancy and makes them unnaturally fast in water -- just as a jump cue gives the player greater capability to jump and lets them escape from situations they might otherwise not be able to. And just like a jump cue, a self correcting golf ball, alters the shot.

Both these are banned by their respective sports for good reason. Hopefully, jump cues will join their ilk.

Lou Figueroa

The jump cue only makes more jump shots possible. The cue doesn't make the ball do anything other than what the player directs it to do.

I agree that because of this increase in POSSIBLE shots the jump cue can be used to SKILLFULLY escape from situations which would have been impossible to jump with a regular cue.

By the same token using chalk does the same exact thing allowing players a wider range of shots giving them the opportunity to play position in ways that would be impossible without the use of chalk.

Without chalk there would be no 100 ball runs. Nada, zip, zilch. Ever.

 

[lfigueroa]

The jump cue only makes more jump shots possible. The cue doesn't make the ball do anything other than what the player directs it to do.

I agree that because of this increase in POSSIBLE shots the jump cue can be used to SKILLFULLY escape from situations which would have been impossible to jump with a regular cue.

By the same token using chalk does the same exact thing allowing players a wider range of shots giving them the opportunity to play position in ways that would be impossible without the use of chalk.

Without chalk there would be no 100 ball runs. Nada, zip, zilch. Ever.

Sure. And the RZR just covers their private parts while swimming, lol.

Jump cues makes jump shots possible and E-A-S-Y. Way too easy, just like self-correcting golf balls make hitting fairways too easy -- that's why they're banned.

Chalk has added finesse to the game. Jump cues are an abomination that have added pogo sticks to the game.

Lou Figueroa

 

[one stroke]

The jump cue only makes more jump shots possible. The cue doesn't make the ball do anything other than what the player directs it to do.

I agree that because of this increase in POSSIBLE shots the jump cue can be used to SKILLFULLY escape from situations which would have been impossible to jump with a regular cue.

By the same token using chalk does the same exact thing allowing players a wider range of shots giving them the opportunity to play position in ways that would be impossible without the use of chalk.

Without chalk there would be no 100 ball runs. Nada, zip, zilch. Ever.

Chalk was invented before all modern pool games 14-1 8 ball and 9 ball ,, these are the games that brought pool it's popularity are were played basicly 80 yrs before jump sticks came along

1

 

[JB Cases]

Sure. And the RZR just covers their private parts while swimming, lol.

Jump cues makes jump shots possible and E-A-S-Y. Way too easy, just like self-correcting golf balls make hitting fairways too easy -- that's why they're banned.

Chalk has added finesse to the game. Jump cues are an abomination that have added pogo sticks to the game.

Lou Figueroa

Really, this video disagrees with you. These jump shots all show incredible skill and finesse.

https://youtu.be/awQI23TiHkk

Jump cues make the act of jumping equitable for everyone - the actual success that one has is due to whatever skill a player develops.

Chalk was invented before all modern pool games 14-1 8 ball and 9 ball ,, these are the games that brought pool it's popularity are were played basicly 80 yrs before jump sticks came along

1

And? Jump cues came into being to address a need. Jump shots are allowed and not all "full length" cues jump equally well. Modern jump cues all have about the same degree of jumpability.

Thus every player has the POSSIBILITY in their hands to make any jump shot they face, assuming it is a makeable shot. Whether they make it or not depends on their SKILL.

 

[one stroke]

Really, this video disagrees with you. These jump shots all show incredible skill and finesse.

https://youtu.be/awQI23TiHkk

Jump cues make the act of jumping equitable for everyone - the actual success that one has is due to whatever skill a player develops.



And? Jump cues came into being to address a need. Jump shots are allowed and not all "full length" cues jump equally well. Modern jump cues all have about the same degree of jumpability.

Thus every player has the POSSIBILITY in their hands to make any jump shot they face, assuming it is a makeable shot. Whether they make it or not depends on their SKILL.

The need was not among the top players but rather aid the lessor players who where at a big disadvantage in the kicking department ,, thru time it's actualy diminished the quality of the game
1

 

[JB Cases]

The need was not among the top players but rather aid the lessor players who where at a big disadvantage in the kicking department ,, thru time it's actualy diminished the quality of the game
1

Professional players developed the jump cue.

And the jump shot has enhanced the quality of the game adding a plethora of new and exciting SKILL shots to the game. Absolute crowd favorites in all WPA sanctioned tournaments.

In this video one can see a lot of great kick shots and jump shots. One jump shot in particular called the "shot of the tournament"

https://youtu.be/awQI23TiHkk

 

[Straightpool_99]

Traditionally pool has been a game of skill, not so much about equipment as many other sports. Of course the equipment salesmen want that to change. They want us to have 3 different playing cues, 2 different break cues and 3 different length jump cues. While having tons of expensive equipment doesn't really detract from the game, most of the time it is not necessary and may actually not help at all. JB wants you to have 5 jump cues of course, but really the jump cue is not, as he thinks adding to the game, rather it cheapens it and makes it silly. Some guy hooks himself, and now he's going for the neon green short cue. He puts on the grey sunglasses with the crosshairs on them and attaches his arm and butt weights. Oh, and he puts on the special stilletto shoes to add extra height, along with finger extensions. Wow, look, the cueball is bouncing around and he shits in the object ball 2 rails..

90 % of the jump shots I see are UGLY. The cueball is bouncing all over the place, barely staying on the table. I'm not talking about amateurs either...Pros shoot these shots almost as poorly as many amateurs, in many cases. Some can be beautiful, but they are rare indeed. Take away the jump cue, and jump shots are now low percentage. The ugly shots will disappear from the pro game, and the jump only chosen when the cueball can be controlled. I'd bet most of the shots would be partial jumps, with very little uncontrolled bouncing.

I wouldn't think it a tragedy if the jump shot was banned all together, but IMO it is too hard to enforce. Even in snooker, players sometimes get away with partial jumps, because it's hard to tell if they are intentional or not. One cue for all shots (except the break) IMO.

 

[one stroke]

Professional players developed the jump cue.

And the jump shot has enhanced the quality of the game adding a plethora of new and exciting SKILL shots to the game. Absolute crowd favorites in all WPA sanctioned tournaments.

In this video one can see a lot of great kick shots and jump shots. One jump shot in particular called the "shot of the tournament"

https://youtu.be/awQI23TiHkk

Dam glad to know Iv hit some jump shots that would be considerd shots of the tournoment who would have thunk it ,,

1

 

[c-money]

Sooo...call shots, huh?

...you don't like guys like Efren playing shots that have multiple outcomes built in?
......you think he should have to play as dumb as people he can give the last four to?

How about snooker, one pocket, and carombola?.....
...they should be played in a more pedestrian manner?

Multiple outcomes... yes I've heard Efren say he likes to play slop because he likes to get lucky sometimes. Multiple outcomes equals maybe something will fall in if I get lucky and if I don't get lucky maybe I get a lucky safety. Nothing against Efren, its a game that rewards flukes.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Undoubtedly Larry Nevel's skill had nothing to do with making that shot. I would assume you could post a similar video given how its definitely the tip? (X Breaker wasn't G10 btw. It was specifically marketed as being harder than G10.)

KMRUNOUT

Use whatever "specific marketing" you'd like. It was a glass epoxy tip.

Larry couldn't make that shot with an Elkmaster tip on the cue. So, if I change the tip, and the shot can no longer be made, is it truly the player's skill that makes the shot?

 

[JB Cases]

Use whatever "specific marketing" you'd like. It was a glass epoxy tip.

Larry couldn't make that shot with an Elkmaster tip on the cue. So, if I change the tip, and the shot can no longer be made, is it truly the player's skill that makes the shot?

That's because the cue would not be suited to that shot if you change to a soft tip.

I concede that the cue is engineered for jump shots. No argument there.

That's what is was designed for, within BCA, TE and WPA specifications.

But skill is what made that shot. I jump cue jump put it in to the realm of possibility.

Larry's skill and stroke made shot though.

 

[JB Cases]

Traditionally pool has been a game of skill, not so much about equipment as many other sports. Of course the equipment salesmen want that to change. They want us to have 3 different playing cues, 2 different break cues and 3 different length jump cues. While having tons of expensive equipment doesn't really detract from the game, most of the time it is not necessary and may actually not help at all. JB wants you to have 5 jump cues of course, but really the jump cue is not, as he thinks adding to the game, rather it cheapens it and makes it silly. Some guy hooks himself, and now he's going for the neon green short cue. He puts on the grey sunglasses with the crosshairs on them and attaches his arm and butt weights. Oh, and he puts on the special stilletto shoes to add extra height, along with finger extensions. Wow, look, the cueball is bouncing around and he shits in the object ball 2 rails..

90 % of the jump shots I see are UGLY. The cueball is bouncing all over the place, barely staying on the table. I'm not talking about amateurs either...Pros shoot these shots almost as poorly as many amateurs, in many cases. Some can be beautiful, but they are rare indeed. Take away the jump cue, and jump shots are now low percentage. The ugly shots will disappear from the pro game, and the jump only chosen when the cueball can be controlled. I'd bet most of the shots would be partial jumps, with very little uncontrolled bouncing.

I wouldn't think it a tragedy if the jump shot was banned all together, but IMO it is too hard to enforce. Even in snooker, players sometimes get away with partial jumps, because it's hard to tell if they are intentional or not. One cue for all shots (except the break) IMO.

Don't put words in my mouth. I want people to enjoy the game. I don't care if that is with one cue or ten.

The statement that pool is traditionally about skill and not equipment is false though. Equipment has been evolving for hundreds of years.

Here are a bunch of very controlled, very pretty, very skilled jump shots.

https://youtu.be/awQI23TiHkk

 

[one stroke]

Don't put words in my mouth. I want people to enjoy the game. I don't care if that is with one cue or ten.

The statement that pool is traditionally about skill and not equipment is false though. Equipment has been evolving for hundreds of years.

Here are a bunch of very controlled, very pretty, very skilled jump shots.

https://youtu.be/awQI23TiHkk

The games we play are not 100s of yrs old barely 100 .and really has had very few big changes in equiptment non bigger than the jump stick

1

 

[pt109]

Multiple outcomes... yes I've heard Efren say he likes to play slop because he likes to get lucky sometimes. Multiple outcomes equals maybe something will fall in if I get lucky and if I don't get lucky maybe I get a lucky safety. Nothing against Efren, its a game that rewards flukes.

You remember that 9-ball carom Shane made to win a match at the Mosconi?
....that was based on a multiple outcome...
...the 2-ball was banking at the 3/5 near the corner pocket...one of the three balls
figured to drop (the 2-ball did drop)....so his partner would've still been shooting....

If it was call shots, I think the carom was a bit of a white flag...he had to draw/spin
it.....the 2/7 combo may've been the better choice at call shots....
....and we may not have seen this brilliant shot.

 

[one stroke]

You remember that 9-ball carom Shane made to win a match at the Mosconi?
....that was based on a multiple outcome...
...the 2-ball was banking at the 3/5 near the corner pocket...one of the three balls
figured to drop (the 2-ball did drop)....so his partner would've still been shooting....

If it was call shots, I think the carom was a bit of a white flag...he had to draw/spin
it.....the 2/7 combo may've been the better choice at call shots....
....and we may not have seen this brilliant shot.

It was a great shot because of the moment , the shot it's self was pretty routine

1

 

[lfigueroa]

Really, this video disagrees with you. These jump shots all show incredible skill and finesse.

https://youtu.be/awQI23TiHkk

Jump cues make the act of jumping equitable for everyone - the actual success that one has is due to whatever skill a player develops.



And? Jump cues came into being to address a need. Jump shots are allowed and not all "full length" cues jump equally well. Modern jump cues all have about the same degree of jumpability.

Thus every player has the POSSIBILITY in their hands to make any jump shot they face, assuming it is a makeable shot. Whether they make it or not depends on their SKILL.

You put a jump cue in pro player hands and their going to be able to do trick shots. BFD. For 99.9% of the players a jump cue is a hippity hop, I got out of the trap, "get out of jail" card.

Lou Figueroa