Darren Appleton's comments on 9 on spot/ cue ball fouls/ pattern racking

[Hits 'em Hard]

Ive spoken to greg and while not set in stone .. Good chance much needed changes will be made...

racking your own balls i like.. but not when the one ball is on the spot using a regular rack and 9ball flying in the pocket or staying very close to a pocket so the games finish in no time... and then you got the pattern racking.. And the good rackers mostly Professionals are great at racking balls to guarantee the wing ball this also hurts the Amateurs.

games moved on now and better than that.. and greg agrees and all the players i Privately spoke to including the likes of shane agreed .

9ball on the spot ,2 at the back and break box is the best rules for 9ball and best for amateurs also ,At the moment they're getting blown away by the current rules. with 9ball on the spot they will get more play. and more shocks for sure.

I Watched around 3 hrs of 9ball 2nd to last day i see around 20-30 9balls go in from the break and around 50-60 games at least finish with 1-9 2-9 3-9 combo.

Anyway i Tagged around 50 players in Private and all agreed we need changes and most want call shot also,But i don't think thats good for the Amateurs.

Plus this will benefit the game and USA going forward to international events and Mosconi Cup..


Darren

The triangle rack is the problem, not the game. Template rack, break box, alternate break, and extend the race. End pro cut pockets and just stay with the standard 4 1/2" size. The extended shelf of a Diamond table with their rails is already enough of a difficulty jump from a Gold Crown an amateur shouldn't be punished more. No Cyclop balls (skittles). That's basically what the world 9 ball is, but no break box.

To solve all problems, require all breaks to be clocked for speed and anything below 21mph/35kph is deemed too slow and loss of turn, no ball in hand foul. Just turn over the table.

 

[dynamite]

The fact that the rules change all the time is a complete joke. Everyone wants their own rules... So they do their own tournament with their own rules. That doesn't happen in other games.


And let's be real, Darren has won pretty much every title in pool and pretty much every game world wide.... He adapts just fine.

correct and this the problem

and yes I've won at every version of 9ball and 10ball.. so makes no difference to me

its all about making the rules and game better..

especially for next generation.

D

 

[CreeDo]

This is no different than all of the people that cried and cried when Corey was winning every 9 ball event after figuring out the soft break. He could do it and nobody else could do it or do it as well. After they all practiced it and figured it out then they started doing it until the rack spot had to be moved or more tourneys went to 10-ball.

Adapt or Die.

This is not like Corey's break. Corey's break works on a legit tight racks.
The 9 only flies straight into a corner if there's a gap.
There's no "adapting" to do here short of cheating and intentionally leaving gaps.

 

[Drop The Rock]

Ive spoken to greg and while not set in stone .. Good chance much needed changes will be made...

racking your own balls i like.. but not when the one ball is on the spot using a regular rack and 9ball flying in the pocket or staying very close to a pocket so the games finish in no time... and then you got the pattern racking.. And the good rackers mostly Professionals are great at racking balls to guarantee the wing ball this also hurts the Amateurs.

games moved on now and better than that.. and greg agrees and all the players i Privately spoke to including the likes of shane agreed .

9ball on the spot ,2 at the back and break box is the best rules for 9ball and best for amateurs also ,At the moment they're getting blown away by the current rules. with 9ball on the spot they will get more play. and more shocks for sure.

I Watched around 3 hrs of 9ball 2nd to last day i see around 20-30 9balls go in from the break and around 50-60 games at least finish with 1-9 2-9 3-9 combo.

Anyway i Tagged around 50 players in Private and all agreed we need changes and most want call shot also,But i don't think thats good for the Amateurs.

Plus this will benefit the game and USA going forward to international events and Mosconi Cup..


Darren

How dare you try and change the rules so that they make sense and reward luck less!

All these "pool players" complaining about the racking and breaking procedures and they can't run 5 to save their life.

Rack your own with a template and the 9 not counting is legitimate and their shouldn't be any issue after that. Pattern racking can be obviously pointed out.

Call pocket isn't unreasonable because it already exists in BCA 8 ball, however calling the 9 would work as a happy medium.

I'm one of those amateurs and have only been playing a couple of years but I'd rather play games that force me to improve.

 

[dynamite]

He complains a lot because there is a lot to complain about. He cares about the game and its future. State of the pro game sucks and until everyone can come together, agree and have standards, it's gonna suck. So, it will always suck.

And because the players can't be bothered to speak

I've decided I'm gonna be the speaker and a player rep...

i want to make the game better.

Simple.

Darren

 

[dynamite]

9 on the spot and The Accu-Rack Diamond 9 was in use at the US Open and we had great responses from the players, fans and referees... AtLarge has the break stats on here somewhere but we had 1 rerack in over 570 racks...

Darren was in the booth commentating for one of the matches and flat out said that the Accu-Rack was the better template and needed to be more in use...

Since then we have been at the Music City, The MIH 10Ball, The Bigfoot 10-Ball and will be at the upcoming Billiard Kombat Open in Romania (9-Ball) and The Texas Open 10-Ball......

Pattern racking can be solved simply in the players meeting... Tell the players they are to take a quick picture before each rack is broken by their opponent and if there is evidence of pattern racking the referee can make a judgement from the photos if the same pattern was used in consecutive racks...

I have been testing 10-Ball with the 10 on the spot because of a request by AtLarge and I am going to tell you if you want to reduce run out percentages and randomize the layouts it's the way to go... It's pretty brutal but these guys are pros and will likely just figure some new break out.... Still might be the answer as the wing balls now become colliders and the balls behind the 1 go high......

we all agreed the rules at the last us open were perfect..

darren

 

[corvette1340]

why can't i win ? I've won major events with one ball on the spot rack your own including back to back us opens .. I can rack and break this way.. but its a shit version of 9ball simple as that.. race to 9s with good players are over in no time because lot of cheap games over quick 9 on break combos on the 9ball etc.. and players top players esp rack better than Amateurs fact..
Pattern racking, wired wing ball with winner break, is not good for pool and especially not good for amateurs and the future generation...

Rack your own winner break fine with 2 at the back with 9 on the spot be better 9ball and fair for everyone.. Fact

all the players I've spoke to agree with me , Shane,Dennis,all of them. Shane spoke to gregg last year on getting rules changed.. but didn't happen.. game moved on now.. standard too high and everyone worked out how to rack to nail the wing ball even when can't get the balls froze which is never..

supposed to make the game tougher as time goes on not make it easier than its ever been.

but I don't understand why you're complaining about the rules when you clearly knew them before the tourney started. Seems like you could practice the break using the stated rules a ton of times before the tourney like I'm sure a lot of the others did. Alternate break, races to 7 doesn't benefit the better player, BUT all of the best players show up and play under those rules at the world 9-ball even though a lot of luck and high variance is involved.

Not to mention that the DCC is unlike any of the other pool tourneys around and maybe the promoters want to keep it that way or do things like THEY want to do. Their money, their rules, period.

You guys all see how Shane and now Shaw are breaking in the 10-ball and I'm sure all of you will try to follow that pattern and break speed until everyone is soft breaking a ball in the side and keeping the one up table until everyone complains that 10-ball has to be changed as well. The simple fact is that given a set of rules, whatever they may be, the prudent thing to do would be to practice for those rules regardless of what you think or if they benefit you. Corey did it, Shane does it, Asian players do it for all of their tourney rules, and you do it too. It's why you've won a lot of different formats, sets of rules, etc...

I just don't see why every tourney should have the same exact set of rules. That's boring, especially for spectators.

 

[Drop The Rock]

The triangle rack is the problem, not the game. Template rack, break box, alternate break, and extend the race. End pro cut pockets and just stay with the standard 4 1/2" size. The extended shelf of a Diamond table with their rails is already enough of a difficulty jump from a Gold Crown an amateur shouldn't be punished more. No Cyclop balls (skittles). That's basically what the world 9 ball is, but no break box.

To solve all problems, require all breaks to be clocked for speed and anything below 21mph/35kph is deemed too slow and loss of turn, no ball in hand foul. Just turn over the table.

What are pro cut pockets? Most major events are played on 4.5" If I'm not mistaken and One pocket should be played on 4.25" Max 4" Min. 4.25" Isn't unreasonably tight its just tougher for beaters like me.

Who is going to clock the cue-ball? Everybody gonna rely on the predator app, which can be inconsistent depending on how noisy the pool hall is? What about handicapped, young, or female players? Not everyone can break at 21mph and the beauty of pool is you can rub shoulders with pros in a decent number of events. 9 on the spot makes the soft-break really tough unless its a bar table.

 

[Drop The Rock]

but I don't understand why you're complaining about the rules when you clearly knew them before the tourney started. Seems like you could practice the break using the stated rules a ton of times before the tourney like I'm sure a lot of the others did. Alternate break, races to 7 doesn't benefit the better player, BUT all of the best players show up and play under those rules at the world 9-ball even though a lot of luck and high variance is involved.

Not to mention that the DCC is unlike any of the other pool tourneys around and maybe the promoters want to keep it that way or do things like THEY want to do. Their money, their rules, period.

You guys all see how Shane and now Shaw are breaking in the 10-ball and I'm sure all of you will try to follow that pattern and break speed until everyone is soft breaking a ball in the side and keeping the one up table until everyone complains that 10-ball has to be changed as well. The simple fact is that given a set of rules, whatever they may be, the prudent thing to do would be to practice for those rules regardless of what you think or if they benefit you. Corey did it, Shane does it, Asian players do it for all of their tourney rules, and you do it too. It's why you've won a lot of different formats, sets of rules, etc...

I just don't see why every tourney should have the same exact set of rules. That's boring, especially for spectators.

So would you rather watch 50 games, 10 of which had 9s on the break and 15 had 2-9 etc combos? How is an amateur (like me) supposed to learn watching that? Its 9 ball ROTATION, not 9 ball on the break/combination.

 

[BJTyler747]

Winner breaks favors people who are big momentum players vs. the really rock-steady guys who play the same whether they're up 7 or down 10.

There are many non-mathematical elements that can factor into this -including psychology. But from a strictly mathematical point of view, under most realistic assumptions (including simple models of momentum), alternate vs. winner break has no impact on the probability of the better player winning.

It does, however, impact the average winning margins. This -I think- leads people to believe it plays a bigger role than it does.

Unlike pattern racking, placement of the nine, break box, and gaps, I think alternate vs. winner break is basically a non-issue.

However, the one thing winner break does is that it allows for big leads & big comebacks....this can and does add tremendous drama to the sport.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Pattern racking can be solved simply in the players meeting... Tell the players they are to take a quick picture before each rack is broken by their opponent and if there is evidence of pattern racking the referee can make a judgement from the photos if the same pattern was used in consecutive racks...

Easiest solution is to just assign a random pattern for each rack. If the 1,2 and 9 for 9 ball and 1, 2, 3, and 10 for ball are pre designated positions that only leaves 720 options for each rack for patterns. So each pattern for each rack is given with the scoresheet. No way to argue that.

What are pro cut pockets?

One quarter inch narrower at the pocket liner than at the point. So 4 1/2" at the point is 4 1/4" at the back of the pocket facing. Basically makes it impossible to make a ball past a ball in the jaws without hitting it.

 

[corvette1340]

So would you rather watch 50 games, 10 of which had 9s on the break and 15 had 2-9 etc combos? How is an amateur (like me) supposed to learn watching that? Its 9 ball ROTATION, not 9 ball on the break/combination.

the majority of viewers aren't watching to learn, at least I'm not. I'm watching to see 2 professionals compete and figure out how to win given the different circumstances of the match. IE..which type of game, table, cloth, pocket size, rack, break position, etc...I also like to see if one players' shooting ability can overcome his inferior break or safety play, etc...

Not to mention that if I'm watching a match, live or on stream, I'm always betting on it which is a must for me to sweat the action.

 

[jsp]

Alternate break, races to 7 doesn't benefit the better player...

I just don't see why every tourney should have the same exact set of rules. That's boring, especially for spectators.

So I'm guessing you're okay with high-profile tournaments that implement short races and alternating break, because if every tournament uses longer races and winner breaks it would be "boring"?

 

[dynamite]

Darrens original comment was completely out of line

he was/is one of my favorite players but lost respect for him lately
he complains a lot
it was his neck his lack of motivation, racking for each other now its racking your own, was magic rack it never ends

he has an excuse for everything

think he little peeved that Shaw has overtaken him as best GB player currently
also thought his comments were disrespectful to shane alex etc

They wasn't out of line they was right...And there's a lot to Complain about haven't you seen the state of pool lately? Probably the worst Organized Sport/Game in the world and i play it for a living and love the game so of course I'm Complaining i want to make it better.. not just sit back and see it suffer like it as done. All the Professionals Think the same and say the same, i just the one to come out and say it.


Neck been a problem so what, Motivation dropped after snapping off a 100k world championship last year happens Esp when nothing bigger on the calendar for rest of year.

but still my results were good with lot of major high finishes not bad for a guy that played average for most of year. i still did better than everyone else financially and my stats were good amongst the best.

My comments were nothing against shane or alex or any player at all so u way of the mark.. Only against the rules/Format of the game..

Maybe Jayson is playing better than me lately your probably right for sure Recent months.. But financially and Stats From 2015 prove different.. But This year I expect him to have a great year and go on to achieve big things and I'm a big supporter of him so i hope he achieves everything in the game and gets what he deserves..Im sure he will. I Hope he as the success I've had ,If he does he will be a very very happy man and ill be first to congratulate him.

D.

 

[dynamite]

the majority of viewers aren't watching to learn, at least I'm not. I'm watching to see 2 professionals compete and figure out how to win given the different circumstances of the match. IE..which type of game, table, cloth, pocket size, rack, break position, etc...I also like to see if one players' shooting ability can overcome his inferior break or safety play, etc...

Not to mention that if I'm watching a match, live or on stream, I'm always betting on it which is a must for me to sweat the action.

I like to see everyone start on a level playing field obviously you don't ;-(

 

[corvette1340]

So I'm guessing you're okay with high-profile tournaments that implement short races and alternating break, because if every tournament uses longer races and winner breaks it would be "boring"?

correct. I love watching the short races like the world 9-ball and mosconi cup, but it's a crapshoot when you get two world class players, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[dynamite]

Easiest solution is to just assign a random pattern for each rack. If the 1,2 and 9 for 9 ball and 1, 2, 3, and 10 for ball are pre designated positions that only leaves 720 options for each rack for patterns. So each pattern for each rack is given with the scoresheet. No way to argue that.



One quarter inch narrower at the pocket liner than at the point. So 4 1/2" at the point is 4 1/4" at the back of the pocket facing. Basically makes it impossible to make a ball past a ball in the jaws without hitting it.

the 2 key balls on the break are the 1 ball and 2 ball.. putting the 2ball at the back makes it a random ball it flys around the table and gets kissed a lot... rest of balls can be placed to land in a certain position esp 2 and 3 ..least with the two ball at the back it makes rest of the rack random layout.

with one ball on the spot the top guys worked out to guarantee the wing ball and get the one ball to land over one of the top pockets near enough.. professionals have masters this..

with 9ball on the spot the wing ball guarantee is taken away.. sometimes the one ball goes in the side..so the next lowest ball is 2ball so if thats racked at the back it can land anywhere so thats good because doesn't matter where rest of the balls are place when racking..

so this the best version of 9ball. and the toughest.

 

[Bob Jewett]

we all agreed the rules at the last us open were perfect..

darren

With the small exception that we need explicit rules about how to handle the template after the break. It's not so easy when multiple balls are on it including the possibly wired nine ball.

 

[Colonel]

How many years of Mosconi Cup beat downs and no World Title winners in a row will it take before those in the US who don't care start to care? A bunch of us already do......



I know that Shane has been championing the template use because I think he sees the writing on the wall when he travels abroad...



We used to own the game now it belongs to the world.. Chinese Taipei, Europe and the Philippines seem to be churning out world class players faster than we are.. I would like to see that change..



Different formats create different pressures.. If we want to compete on the world stage the sooner we recognize this the better........

With all due respect to you for who you are in the industry I disagree. One of the biggest issues in this game is the 4000 formats that have developed over the last 15 years.

The game needs ONE Format not multiple ones. As it is OUR game I take issue with any of the formats that are not what 9 ball always was. Formats created by those that can't keep up in a winner breaks format, I.E. the Europeans & Those from China, Taiwan etc who championed these format changes because they couldn't compete in the format that the game was & should be. Pool is a sport where it is your inning until you miss, foul or play safe because there is no greater pressure than being strapped in the electric chair getting slapped with a package & more importantly how you respond when you get back to the table & that is a dynamic that should never be lost.

As far as templates go, Not crazy about foreign objects on the playing field but at least they provide a settled rack.

Lastly US players issues in the Mosconi Cup & World Championships are not about Formats, they're about foreign players receiving far more support from their home nations than our players receive in ours. Shane came within the bat of an eye of winning the last World Championship & in in a 1 on the spot winner breaks format as this game should be, well he'd probably have won. I believe with the proper support Mark Wilson will change our fortunes in Mosconi Cup play soon.

 

[dynamite]

but I don't understand why you're complaining about the rules when you clearly knew them before the tourney started. Seems like you could practice the break using the stated rules a ton of times before the tourney like I'm sure a lot of the others did. Alternate break, races to 7 doesn't benefit the better player, BUT all of the best players show up and play under those rules at the world 9-ball even though a lot of luck and high variance is involved.

Not to mention that the DCC is unlike any of the other pool tourneys around and maybe the promoters want to keep it that way or do things like THEY want to do. Their money, their rules, period.

You guys all see how Shane and now Shaw are breaking in the 10-ball and I'm sure all of you will try to follow that pattern and break speed until everyone is soft breaking a ball in the side and keeping the one up table until everyone complains that 10-ball has to be changed as well. The simple fact is that given a set of rules, whatever they may be, the prudent thing to do would be to practice for those rules regardless of what you think or if they benefit you. Corey did it, Shane does it, Asian players do it for all of their tourney rules, and you do it too. It's why you've won a lot of different formats, sets of rules, etc...

I just don't see why every tourney should have the same exact set of rules. That's boring, especially for spectators.

Every Sport/Game should start as a level playing field and one set of rules ..
at the moment thats not the case it allows bad sportsmanship and players pulling moves happens all the time. And i don't blame the players i blame the rules/format implied.

Every Sport got one set of rules and start level playing field and pool should be no different.

This why pool so confusing and looked at as a joke to the outside world looking in.. evryone confused

And obviously people do find the rules/formats boring because nobody watches and got no respect for it.And on its Knees. All sports Tweak with rules to make it better and thats the way it should be in Pool, Rest of world are doing it so why shouldn't USA? still playing rules that are old school no good and outdated and only Damaging the game and the players... I don't get it.

All other sports that are successful play one set of rules worldwide and start level playing field and people find them NOT Boring so they must be doing something better than pool.

every event needs a players meeting to know what rules we playing madness..

One set of rules for each Discipline world wide then we got a chance.

Supposed to make the game tougher not easier

Its not about me practicing the rules or a different format i know what to do.. but i shouldn't need to learn how to rack the balls like a expert and study it for hours and hours on end to understand which gaps to leave to guarantee the wing ball,or which gap to leave to make the 9ball or if doesn't go in pocket its gonna be laying nicely for quick 2-9 3-9 combo.. or learn how to pattern rack to suite my break hours and hours on end... no thanks i will continue to do what i do and find a way to win my way.

but doesn't make difference to me DCC 9ball or turning stone not going to change my life if never win either one of them...

Im just trying to help the Game in the states... to follow the best rules by a mile what we play Worldwide which will benefit everyone from General public /Sponsors the players and the next generation on the world stage and learn them the game/sport the correct way.

I will keep trying my best to voice my opinion for the players and the game/sport.. and work with Organisers or give them good input if i can.