Darren Appleton's comments on 9 on spot/ cue ball fouls/ pattern racking

[GideonF]

I just wonder about the 9 on the break. That seems to be the focus of his criticism. Is it really that common? Do we have stats on how common it was at the Derby 9-ball? I saw a couple, but it couldn't have been more than about 1/20 games. The fans love it when the 9-ball goes on the break. If it's only happening less than, say, 1/10 times, I don't have a problem with it, as a fan.

I do not have stats, but it happened often enough to be a concern to me if I were playing. Last year, for example, I saw Archer lose when his opponent made the 9 on the break straight in the corner with the breaker on the hill. Archer was pissed and seemed to think it was done deliberately. Was it? I don't know. But I do know that a player shouldn't be left wondering if his opponent did it on purpose.

The problem is the combination of rack your own and the 9 on the break counting. We all know how to rack the balls to get the 9 to on the break in one of the two bottom corners.

As we saw with the Alex vs SVB match (the first one), even when the players are trying to get the 9 ball frozen to the back balls it can be hard to do with a traditional rack.

As far as I am concerned, if you are going to have rack your own, the 9 cannot count in the bottom corners. The other pockets are pretty much a luck factor and rarely come into play.

The problem will all ball fouls, to me, is the lack of referees. It is one thing if you disturb a ball with your bridge hand or the cue, for example, which both players if being honest can see, but all ball fouls also includes things like your shirt or long hair touching a ball. If the non-shooting player says "your shirt touched the ball" and I don't think it did, how do we resolve this? I think that the fewer controversies the better.

Gideon

 

[CreeDo]

He's right... 9 on the break is generally junk, and easy to produce with a manipulated rack. You can't expect every player to be honest, but you CAN take away their opportunity to be dishonest.

I dunno what's so offensive about that, I guess his original post was more harshly worded.

Fears of pattern racking are mostly overstated. The worst I ever saw was Corey's, where he was able to super-soft break on a barbox and consistently do a 4-9 combo after running 3 hangers. If ten dudes are doing that, they need to stay on top of it and possibly change the rules to prevent it.

If one dude's doing it and the rest are breaking hard (getting semi-random layouts), probably they don't need a rule change, they just need players to be willing to step up and tell a ref. Right now, I don't think they ever do... maybe once the match is done. They probably don't want to come across like a tattletale, or get a raft of shit from their opponent when they're trying to focus on the match, or create a hostile vibe.

 

[The Renfro]

I hope DCC adopts the official WPA rules. To have a major tournament using locally made-up rules is not good.

And there really has to be a standard for 9 ball racking/breaking. I think 9 on the spot is good and the rack has to be tight. I think the latter requires a template.

9 on the spot and The Accu-Rack Diamond 9 was in use at the US Open and we had great responses from the players, fans and referees... AtLarge has the break stats on here somewhere but we had 1 rerack in over 570 racks...

Darren was in the booth commentating for one of the matches and flat out said that the Accu-Rack was the better template and needed to be more in use...

Since then we have been at the Music City, The MIH 10Ball, The Bigfoot 10-Ball and will be at the upcoming Billiard Kombat Open in Romania (9-Ball) and The Texas Open 10-Ball......

Pattern racking can be solved simply in the players meeting... Tell the players they are to take a quick picture before each rack is broken by their opponent and if there is evidence of pattern racking the referee can make a judgement from the photos if the same pattern was used in consecutive racks...

I have been testing 10-Ball with the 10 on the spot because of a request by AtLarge and I am going to tell you if you want to reduce run out percentages and randomize the layouts it's the way to go... It's pretty brutal but these guys are pros and will likely just figure some new break out.... Still might be the answer as the wing balls now become colliders and the balls behind the 1 go high......

 

[pdcue]

At one Reno event it was rack your own. On one table the craters were such that the 9 would usually move towards the pocket. One player seemed really sorry that he made the 9 twice in a match on the break.

It's pretty obvious from all the commotion that there is a problem in 9 ball with the rack and break. This has been clear since we started getting tight racks. A loose rack is unfair to the breaker. A tight rack (1 on the spot) guarantees a wing ball. The solution is not clear.

With all due respect - all this is treating the symptoms - not the disease.

9 Ball was embraced as the game of choice for competition because 14.1 was "too boring".
Tho, in point of fact it actually goes back to the fact that the Jansco boys didn't like 14.1,
but that's a rant for another day. So we are playing a game that is massively flawed
as a discipline for professional play.

9 Ball is thought to be faster, more action, more exciting and many other ADD adjectives
that appeal to the spectators.

Well, mostly those are results of a game that is more influenced by luck - that is luck
when it happens to your opponent. I see no reason to modify 9 Ball from the way it has
been played for the last million years or so.
We had a game in which there was virtually no luck nor surprises.

We chose 9 Ball instead - live with it.

Dale

 

[IGR1]

Only cue ball foul is a joke at ANY level.

 

[BRussell]

To tell people to randomly distribute balls in the rack, and then watch for patterns, is the wrong approach. Just openly tell rackers that they can put the balls in whatever way they prefer. If you figure out a pattern you like, good for you, it just adds knowledge and practice to the game. Limit it further by specifying where other balls like the 2 have to go. But don't tell people to be random, it just doesn't work. The impact of patterns is limited mostly to softer breaks anyway, so if you address that issue you've addressed pattern problems, IMO.

 

[Colonel]

Sounds like Daz has a case of the red ass. What he doesn't seem to understand is in the US we really don't give a care how the remainder of the world does it. This game of 9 ball originated here, in the US. If the "Rest of the world" bastardized the game to suit there shortcomings, well that's on them.

 

[BJTyler747]

Do you mean get LUCKIER or get over it? Alternating breaks increases the chance that the BETTER player will win, as opposed to the player who wins the coin flip or lag.

Thank you kindly.

I disagree. Mathematically, I don't see a difference between alternate break & winner break (at least not with respect to the chances of the better player winning).

 

[sjm]

I like nine on the spot and always have.

Actually, I think the wooden rack was a plus at the just-completed Derby. If the one is on the spot, at very least a wooden rack should be used. As for nine on the break, it's something that this fan likes, and is one of the most exciting things for a fan. Pat Fleming once told me that the nine ball drops on the break about 3% of the time, so nobody is wiring it successfully, despite suggestions to the contrary. There were few nines on the break at the just-completed Derby in the matches I watched.

All ball fouls is something that should be up to the players, but I've seen it randomize results at times, just as it did at the US Open 9-ball, when Shane barely moved a ball that was several feet away from the shot being attempted and lost the rack to Deuel because of it.

All that said, Darren's opinion carries great weight with me and needs to be considered.

 

[Bank it]

Do you mean get LUCKIER or get over it? Alternating breaks increases the chance that the BETTER player will win, as opposed to the player who wins the coin flip or lag.



Thank you kindly.

No, I mean get better or get over it, learn how to break. All this fluff about alternate breaks increases the chance of the better player is just that, fluff. Part of being a well rounded player is the break, get better at it or get over it.

You're welcome

 

[7forlife]

I'm still saying "do what you want but everyone breaks from the spot" that's my solution

 

[The Renfro]

Sounds like Daz has a case of the red ass. What he doesn't seem to understand is in the US we really don't give a care how the remainder of the world does it. This game of 9 ball originated here, in the US. If the "Rest of the world" bastardized the game to suit there shortcomings, well that's on them.

How many years of Mosconi Cup beat downs and no World Title winners in a row will it take before those in the US who don't care start to care? A bunch of us already do......

I know that Shane has been championing the template use because I think he sees the writing on the wall when he travels abroad...

We used to own the game now it belongs to the world.. Chinese Taipei, Europe and the Philippines seem to be churning out world class players faster than we are.. I would like to see that change..

Different formats create different pressures.. If we want to compete on the world stage the sooner we recognize this the better........

 

[BmoreMoney]

As stated earlier, no idea what the overall solution is. But I do believe 9 on the break should remain though . It is exciting for the spectators but more importantly imo it gives the " regular" players a little better chance ( even though tiny %) when playing all of these world beating monsters. You have APA 7's playing even against the best players in the world so why not give them a little extra hope? I do like the idea someone said about an app to randomize the balls. It could be part of an app for Fargo or something. I think the long term idea is to have Fargo in use FOR ALL tournaments anyway right? It could be set up where the players data for each match is input and uploaded with there only being a set # of racks per match ( based on the race ). And whatever happened to / with the Sardo rack? That seemed to eliminate the " gaps " right ?

 

[corvette1340]

lmao, of course Darren is complaining about the rules because he can't adapt/win by them as good as others can.

The thing is, if you don't agree with the rules set forth in a particular tourney, THEN DON'T ENTER! If you don't know how the break is going to react to certain rack placements, patterns, breaking spots, etc...then PRACTICE IT!

This is no different than all of the people that cried and cried when Corey was winning every 9 ball event after figuring out the soft break. He could do it and nobody else could do it or do it as well. After they all practiced it and figured it out then they started doing it until the rack spot had to be moved or more tourneys went to 10-ball.

Adapt or Die.

 

[dynamite]

Ive spoken to greg and while not set in stone .. Good chance much needed changes will be made...

racking your own balls i like.. but not when the one ball is on the spot using a regular rack and 9ball flying in the pocket or staying very close to a pocket so the games finish in no time... and then you got the pattern racking.. And the good rackers mostly Professionals are great at racking balls to guarantee the wing ball this also hurts the Amateurs.

games moved on now and better than that.. and greg agrees and all the players i Privately spoke to including the likes of shane agreed .

9ball on the spot ,2 at the back and break box is the best rules for 9ball and best for amateurs also ,At the moment they're getting blown away by the current rules. with 9ball on the spot they will get more play. and more shocks for sure.

I Watched around 3 hrs of 9ball 2nd to last day i see around 20-30 9balls go in from the break and around 50-60 games at least finish with 1-9 2-9 3-9 combo.

Anyway i Tagged around 50 players in Private and all agreed we need changes and most want call shot also,But i don't think thats good for the Amateurs.

Plus this will benefit the game and USA going forward to international events and Mosconi Cup..


Darren

 

[Drop The Rock]

Do you mean get LUCKIER or get over it? Alternating breaks increases the chance that the BETTER player will win, as opposed to the player who wins the coin flip or lag.

Thank you kindly.

False. Alternate break is literally the exact opposite of what you are saying. It prevent players from breaking and running out sets or getting huge leads.

 

[cleary]

Darrens original comment was completely out of line

he was/is one of my favorite players but lost respect for him lately
he complains a lot.

He complains a lot because there is a lot to complain about. He cares about the game and its future. State of the pro game sucks and until everyone can come together, agree and have standards, it's gonna suck. So, it will always suck.

 

[CreeDo]

I disagree. Mathematically, I don't see a difference between alternate break & winner break (at least not with respect to the chances of the better player winning).

There's nobody tracking some of the more "touchy feely" statistics, but a player sitting down can get cold. They can get demoralized, and they can lose a feel for the speed of the table
if they don't hit a ball for 20+ minutes.

An early package by a player can sometimes cause the set to end before the sitting player can properly catch up with his own package. I think some players fade a package better than others (the classic example being the story of bustamante watching johnny run something like 15 racks in a row... losing the set... and asking to play again).

Winner breaks favors people who are big momentum players vs. the really rock-steady guys who play the same whether they're up 7 or down 10.

 

[cleary]

lmao, of course Darren is complaining about the rules because he can't adapt/win by them as good as others can.

The thing is, if you don't agree with the rules set forth in a particular tourney, THEN DON'T ENTER! If you don't know how the break is going to react to certain rack placements, patterns, breaking spots, etc...then PRACTICE IT!

This is no different than all of the people that cried and cried when Corey was winning every 9 ball event after figuring out the soft break. He could do it and nobody else could do it or do it as well. After they all practiced it and figured it out then they started doing it until the rack spot had to be moved or more tourneys went to 10-ball.

Adapt or Die.

The fact that the rules change all the time is a complete joke. Everyone wants their own rules... So they do their own tournament with their own rules. That doesn't happen in other games.


And let's be real, Darren has won pretty much every title in pool and pretty much every game world wide.... He adapts just fine.

 

[dynamite]

lmao, of course Darren is complaining about the rules because he can't adapt/win by them as good as others can.

The thing is, if you don't agree with the rules set forth in a particular tourney, THEN DON'T ENTER! If you don't know how the break is going to react to certain rack placements, patterns, breaking spots, etc...then PRACTICE IT!

This is no different than all of the people that cried and cried when Corey was winning every 9 ball event after figuring out the soft break. He could do it and nobody else could do it or do it as well. After they all practiced it and figured it out then they started doing it until the rack spot had to be moved or more tourneys went to 10-ball.

Adapt or Die.

why can't i win ? I've won major events with one ball on the spot rack your own including back to back us opens .. I can rack and break this way.. but its a shit version of 9ball simple as that.. race to 9s with good players are over in no time because lot of cheap games over quick 9 on break combos on the 9ball etc.. and players top players esp rack better than Amateurs fact..
Pattern racking, wired wing ball with winner break, is not good for pool and especially not good for amateurs and the future generation...

Rack your own winner break fine with 2 at the back with 9 on the spot be better 9ball and fair for everyone.. Fact

all the players I've spoke to agree with me , Shane,Dennis,all of them. Shane spoke to gregg last year on getting rules changed.. but didn't happen.. game moved on now.. standard too high and everyone worked out how to rack to nail the wing ball even when can't get the balls froze which is never..

supposed to make the game tougher as time goes on not make it easier than its ever been.