I miss Tar matches.....

[JCIN]

TAR was an interesting time. I was involved for a little over 5 years with Justin and Tar. And don't forget Chad Pullman (Big Nasty).

The bottom line is that the player's schedules were tricky to work around. Originally most matches had heathy backers involved. All the matches had a considerable front line bet involved - and there was NO funny stuff. (Who's gonna argue with Justin???)

Then Bonus Ball decided to play in our sandbox. We tried to work with them and around them. But one time, we couldn't put together a decent match for close to 5-6 months. I'm sure many of you remember all the BS posts between Bonus Ball spokes people and TAR. About all I can say is - I told you so!

The players - who were treated very well from TAR - got a little demanding. Of course, when ABP showed the world that all the players would really play for less money, that changed the whole formula. We actually decreased the players payouts but even then TAR could not sustain. And our expenses were very LOW.

Justin did a very good job in getting top of the line match ups. But we still had the complainers and the crap.

Just an FYI - so everyone can get a reality check. Mark Griffin funded TAR. When our 3 year studio lease came for renewal, we just agreed it was not a working model. And to all the people who thought we were just making gobs of money, the bottom line for over 5 years of effort.

Mark Griffin booked a $125,000 loser. I got zero compensation except the pride of being involved in something special.

I do think it showed the pool world what was possible. Sometime I do crazy stuff - and do things for the passion of the game and not the profit. And that is also why I can get really pissed off at some of the comments from keyboard cowboys that disagree with my methods or goals, when in fact they do not see the big picture. When you deal with all aspects on an everyday basis, you have the advantage of seeing how all the pieces intertwine. Sometimes it takes major surgery to put the pieces in the proper order. Sometimes that can take time and money and hurt peoples comfort level. But things done for the good of the game are worth it.

Justine and I did not agree on some things - but we both did agree on the integrity of our product. We would not allow anything to compromise the quality of the product or the ethical behavior of our matches. It pains me to see all the 'DO vs KO///DO vs SVB' crap going on. That would have never happened with TAR.

And there is a lot of blame to go around - and so far all I've seen is a bunch of lame excuses. I really hope all their shenanigans have not hurt the future prospects for future PPV streaming.

A disclaimer: TAR (name and intellectual property) is under the control of Justin. When we closed down, we made a private arrangement for division of the assets. I just wanted the 'fans' to have a little background on TAR. it was a unique time.

Mark Griffin

My name is Justin not Justine. I don't make cute remarks about you I would appreciate it if you showed me the same respect. Don't blame auto correct because you thought it was witty calling me that for that years. Its not.

The Studio and those matches would not have happened without you and you helped me personally on several occasions but to say you just blew $125K over five years and got nothing in return is simply not true. Five years of promoting CSI, a platform for you to espouse your views and all of the streaming gear I spent years working out. For the price of about two full page ads a month in BD you got the platform of TAR and all of the gear and knowledge you still use to stream your events.

I would prefer not to get into this in public but if you want to act like a victim who just spent money and got no return I will be forced to. All I want is to have nothing to do with you or CSI and to go our separate ways. Nobody wins in a public fight.

 

[JAM]

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

 

[TheCueHunter]

Trouble in paradise....

As Jim Rome would say "Hey Chris"

 

[JCIN]

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

LOL....you think you see blood in the water and just can't help yourself.

If nothing else you are boringly reliable.

 

[JCIN]

Trouble in paradise....

As Jim Rome would say "Hey Chris"

No trouble. All I want is to go about my business but I won't stand by and have one point of view be held up as the whole story. My point of view is business between two parties that isnt part of a product being sold should stay private. Some might even call that acting like a professional.

 

[Spimp13]

Justin/Mark,

Was a full written out business plan created before TAR got going out of curiosity? I'm just wondering if this was done, or if it was more of a plan that just got going and then became a reality (pretty much skipping the business plan step). When people go into business I have come to see sometimes this is skipped, taken too lightly, OR some major things are not put in the business plan or thought of that cost companies money sometimes even bankrupting. I would venture to guess some members on here (not pointing at anyone in particular) have no idea all of the costs/expenses that are involved with running a business. I have a business degree and have helped write a business plan before, so I have a decent idea on this. It was definitely an eye opener once my group (in college), actually sat down and thoroughly looked at this for a couple of business ideas.

Was the goal of TAR from the get go to pretty much break/even while promoting the game you guys (and myself) love, or were you hoping for some profits that just never ended up happening? I know some people don't care or want compensations when doing business stuff....I'm just curious if this was more of a "let's try to break even, lets try to make a little money while doing this, or I don't care what happens because I am doing what I like"?

 

[Fast Lenny]

TAR was an interesting time. I was involved for a little over 5 years with Justin and Tar. And don't forget Chad Pullman (Big Nasty).

The bottom line is that the player's schedules were tricky to work around. Originally most matches had heathy backers involved. All the matches had a considerable front line bet involved - and there was NO funny stuff. (Who's gonna argue with Justin???)

Then Bonus Ball decided to play in our sandbox. We tried to work with them and around them. But one time, we couldn't put together a decent match for close to 5-6 months. I'm sure many of you remember all the BS posts between Bonus Ball spokes people and TAR. About all I can say is - I told you so!

The players - who were treated very well from TAR - got a little demanding. Of course, when ABP showed the world that all the players would really play for less money, that changed the whole formula. We actually decreased the players payouts but even then TAR could not sustain. And our expenses were very LOW.

Justin did a very good job in getting top of the line match ups. But we still had the complainers and the crap.

Just an FYI - so everyone can get a reality check. Mark Griffin funded TAR. When our 3 year studio lease came for renewal, we just agreed it was not a working model. And to all the people who thought we were just making gobs of money, the bottom line for over 5 years of effort.

Mark Griffin booked a $125,000 loser. I got zero compensation except the pride of being involved in something special.

I do think it showed the pool world what was possible. Sometime I do crazy stuff - and do things for the passion of the game and not the profit. And that is also why I can get really pissed off at some of the comments from keyboard cowboys that disagree with my methods or goals, when in fact they do not see the big picture. When you deal with all aspects on an everyday basis, you have the advantage of seeing how all the pieces intertwine. Sometimes it takes major surgery to put the pieces in the proper order. Sometimes that can take time and money and hurt peoples comfort level. But things done for the good of the game are worth it.

Justine and I did not agree on some things - but we both did agree on the integrity of our product. We would not allow anything to compromise the quality of the product or the ethical behavior of our matches. It pains me to see all the 'DO vs KO///DO vs SVB' crap going on. That would have never happened with TAR.

And there is a lot of blame to go around - and so far all I've seen is a bunch of lame excuses. I really hope all their shenanigans have not hurt the future prospects for future PPV streaming.

A disclaimer: TAR (name and intellectual property) is under the control of Justin. When we closed down, we made a private arrangement for division of the assets. I just wanted the 'fans' to have a little background on TAR. it was a unique time.

Mark Griffin

Ahhh, Bonus Balls fault...

Sorry but the players were allowed to play in any TAR match and they were accommodated to be able to play by rescheduling matches. People like Shane, Dennis, Alex weren't a part of Bonus Ball. If anything Bonus Ball saved TAR money by some of the players already being in Vegas so I don't believe any airfare or hotel expenses had to be paid to them.

It is just like talking about Bonus Ball killing Tunica. Tunica was the problem and I heard from even Billy Incardona that he couldn't handle the mosquito issues among other things mentioned by different people who went. The fact was nearly all Bonus Ball players were in attendance for the 10 ball there and some other events but the 10 ball still had horrible numbers for some reason.

Its always easier to blame others for the shortcomings of something instead of looking at facts and reality. Bonus Ball never blamed anyone for the failure but there were delays beyond the control of Larry Chiborak due to a construction fiasco. Bonus Ball tried and failed just like TAR and just like Tunica. Not enough market then not enough money.

I don't dislike you Mark but it has become so apparent in this industry that if you don't have your hand in it then or its not affiliated with your organization somehow and it conflicts with anything you do then it is bad news and the enemy of pool. I look at Bonus Ball and say to myself a group of men put up 2-3 million and lost. Lessons can be learned though from it and we saw that the pro players are sick and tired of the industry in its current state and will get behind something if they feel it has any chance at all because its that desperate.

The fact is that BCAPL, APA, TAP and other leagues make big money and that is great but if they wanted to band together and support a pro tour it could be done with the winners of the amateur nationals getting a spot on the tour each year. I know there is no reason to do so for the owners of the leagues to get behind a pro tour at all because there doesn't seem to be any money in it. Maybe one day someone will figure out how to make a profit off pro pool and for the players to make a decent living too.

As for TAR I feel like it lost its way in my opinion from being raw gritty gambling matches to challenge matches, it lost the magic. It also became a platform for pool politics when the podcast featuring yourself started happening. Some were interesting when it featured players but when it was the Mark Griffin Show it become a biased diatribe. I could picture Justin at the controls with a bottle of Makers wishing he had a nuke button to launch on Alaska the next time you mentioned your home state. I do believe TAR will be back in action if Justin wants to do it but the PPV pool market has a few guys doing things now so it might be even a tougher gig then before and maybe not worth his time.

I hope this post doesn't come off too harsh but I honestly felt if there was a man in the US that could save pro pool it was you buddy but it can't be done by you alone. There would need an effort by top people in the industry coming together which in pool is not a common thing but the players will get behind it that I know. It would be interesting to see the top people from these leagues figure out a way to support a pro tour and still benefit from it.

 

[Apocalypse2017]

No trouble. All I want is to go about my business but I won't stand by and have one point of view be held up as the whole story. My point of view is business between two parties that isnt part of a product being sold should stay private. Some might even call that acting like a professional.

What if you and Joe Rogan started a show called Pool Survivor? You guys could do a podcast before the show like usual, and then the loser of the match is sentenced to death. We could make it interactive by a poll on AZB to decide the way of death.

I really think this is the way to clean up the game of billiards.

Apoc

 

[JAM]

LOL....you think you see blood in the water and just can't help yourself.

If nothing else you are boringly reliable.

At least I'm not a bully.

 

[JCIN]

Justin/Mark,

Was a full written out business plan created before TAR got going out of curiosity? I'm just wondering if this was done, or if it was more of a plan that just got going and then became a reality (pretty much skipping the business plan step). When people go into business I have come to see sometimes this is skipped, taken too lightly, OR some major things are not put in the business plan or thought of that cost companies money sometimes even bankrupting. I would venture to guess some members on here (not pointing at anyone in particular) have no idea all of the costs/expenses that are involved with running a business. I have a business degree and have helped write a business plan before, so I have a decent idea on this. It was definitely an eye opener once my group (in college), actually sat down and thoroughly looked at this for a couple of business ideas.

Was the goal of TAR from the get go to pretty much break/even while promoting the game you guys (and myself) love, or were you hoping for some profits that just never ended up happening? I know some people don't care or want compensations when doing business stuff....I'm just curious if this was more of a "let's try to break even, lets try to make a little money while doing this, or I don't care what happens because I am doing what I like"?

If you look around there is a History of TAR post here somewhere. Its pretty involved. There was never any super involved high level business planning. It was "We'll try this" or "That would be cool lets do this". Those things were based on knowledge of the market and what was possible with the resources available. It was like that from the beginning when TAR was started as a $5 website by Chad and I until the end when Mark and I split. No one does anything in pro pool with the sole motivation of making money but if you can't turn cash then you stop being able to do anything.

The goal in the Studio was always to turn a profit. The market was basically stagnant though. There was no breakout moment or momentum. Mix in all the noise of Bonus Ball and some other things and it just didnt make sense to continue on in the same way.

 

[JCIN]

Ahhh, Bonus Balls fault...

Sorry but the players were allowed to play in any TAR match and they were accommodated to be able to play by rescheduling matches. People like Shane, Dennis, Alex weren't a part of Bonus Ball. If anything Bonus Ball saved TAR money by some of the players already being in Vegas so I don't believe any airfare or hotel expenses had to be paid to them.

It is just like talking about Bonus Ball killing Tunica. Tunica was the problem and I heard from even Billy Incardona that he couldn't handle the mosquito issues among other things mentioned by different people who went. The fact was nearly all Bonus Ball players were in attendance for the 10 ball there and some other events but the 10 ball still had horrible numbers for some reason.

Its always easier to blame others for the shortcomings of something instead of looking at facts and reality. Bonus Ball never blamed anyone for the failure but there were delays beyond the control of Larry Chiborak due to a construction fiasco. Bonus Ball tried and failed just like TAR and just like Tunica. Not enough market then not enough money.

I don't dislike you Mark but it has become so apparent in this industry that if you don't have your hand in it then or its not affiliated with your organization somehow and it conflicts with anything you do then it is bad news and the enemy of pool. I look at Bonus Ball and say to myself a group of men put up 2-3 million and lost. Lessons can be learned though from it and we saw that the pro players are sick and tired of the industry in its current state and will get behind something if they feel it has any chance at all because its that desperate.

The fact is that BCAPL, APA, TAP and other leagues make big money and that is great but if they wanted to band together and support a pro tour it could be done with the winners of the amateur nationals getting a spot on the tour each year. I know there is no reason to do so for the owners of the leagues to get behind a pro tour at all because there doesn't seem to be any money in it. Maybe one day someone will figure out how to make a profit off pro pool and for the players to make a decent living too.

As for TAR I feel like it lost its way in my opinion from being raw gritty gambling matches to challenge matches, it lost the magic. It also became a platform for pool politics when the podcast featuring yourself started happening. Some were interesting when it featured players but when it was the Mark Griffin Show it become a biased diatribe. I could picture Justin at the controls with a bottle of Makers wishing he had a nuke button to launch on Alaska the next time you mentioned your home state. I do believe TAR will be back in action if Justin wants to do it but the PPV pool market has a few guys doing things now so it might be even a tougher gig then before and maybe not worth his time.

I hope this post doesn't come off too harsh but I honestly felt if there was a man in the US that could save pro pool it was you buddy but it can't be done by you alone. There would need an effort by top people in the industry coming together which in pool is not a common thing but the players will get behind it that I know. It would be interesting to see the top people from these leagues figure out a way to support a pro tour and still benefit from it.

I don't want to say Bonus Ball is the reason TAR stopped doing matches because it isnt. It did have a real affect on our business though. It wasnt so much when BB was actually up and running it was all the back and forth leading up to it. I had four potential matches fall apart directly related to Bonus Ball and a few more that didnt get out of the starting gate. The thing that pissed me off was they kept changing their schedule. It made it impossible to work around something when the dates kept moving.

End of the day if the TAR model as we were doing it could generate enough money we would still be doing it. I dont blame it not working on anything but me not being able to find a way to make it work.

 

[watchez]

I think the idea of the TAR studio was because as TAR upgraded their product more and more, it was almost impossible to travel the country to the gritty gambling matches with all of the equipment necessary. So the reverse was done and the players were brought to them. But if there was to be gambling, there had to be stakehorses, etc. cause we all know a pool player is not going to bet on himself. That made it even harder to have more consistency in matches in terms of having them on a regular basis to sustain TAR. So the pay for play practice came into effect.

I for one, loved everything that TAR did. Integrity in pool can only be a good thing.

p.s. Bonus Ball only divided pool. Never helped it. And it was filled with lies from day one. That is where the failure started, festered and ended. If anyone thinks mosquitos outside caused Tunica to fail, well I guess keep thinking that. But this is the US and not the Philippines and pool is played indoors.

I do agree that at times, Mark has a way of viewing things from his standpoint - the 'dinnerbreakgate' from last years events in July when the Big Truck and Sky/Oscar were basically threatened to stop their gambling match is one thing that I will never agree with, no matter how someone tries to justify it.

p.s.s. To Jam, honestly you don't know point one of the TAR story so I am not surprised JCIN gave you the response he did.

 

[JAM]

...p.s.s. To Jam, honestly you don't know point one of the TAR story so I am not surprised JCIN gave you the response he did.

Don't be so sure what I know and what I don't know, Steve. May know a little more than you do about some topics, as hard as that is to believe. :grin:

 

[JCIN]

What if you and Joe Rogan started a show called Pool Survivor? You guys could do a podcast before the show like usual, and then the loser of the match is sentenced to death. We could make it interactive by a poll on AZB to decide the way of death.

I really think this is the way to clean up the game of billiards.

Apoc

Joe and I have talked about a lot of ideas over the years. If he ever does do something it will be well planned on a large scale with serious resources. I doubt it will ever happen mainly because he is simply too busy with everything he already does.

 

[Ranmar]

TAR was special, no doubt. JCIN while I don't know you, you come across as a figure in this community that is very easy to like...for many obvious reasons that have been iterated around here many times.

Can I ask, what do you do now professionally? If it's personal and has nothing to do with anonymous pool forum dwellers I respect that. Just wondering though since if you did have any aspirations to do something else in this godforsaken market, i'd be all ears.

 

[Spimp13]

End of the day if the TAR model as we were doing it could generate enough money we would still be doing it.

Sometimes ideas in life pan out, other times not so much. At least you put forth a solid effort to put some matches out there for this game we all love on this forum. Most of us on here appreciate that.

I wish I could have been there to help run some #s at the beginning and help with some of the brainstorming/marketing aspect for hitting some goals/#s....it may not have made much of a difference, but it may have helped tweak the TAR model a bit to help out. Sometimes the market or sponsors or other expected income coming in just isn't there to help make enough $$$ to keep things afloat regardless of what is done so it could very well have just been one of those it is what it is.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I don't want to say Bonus Ball is the reason TAR stopped doing matches because it isnt. It did have a real affect on our business though. It wasnt so much when BB was actually up and running it was all the back and forth leading up to it. I had four potential matches fall apart directly related to Bonus Ball and a few more that didnt get out of the starting gate. The thing that pissed me off was they kept changing their schedule. It made it impossible to work around something when the dates kept moving.

End of the day if the TAR model as we were doing it could generate enough money we would still be doing it. I dont blame it not working on anything but me not being able to find a way to make it work.

You are right about the schedule, I know it was not intentional on Larrys part as I was there and saw the shit show front row with construction delays and BS beyond his control. I know you don't regret TAR though, you have some kick ass memories and met lots of great people which is priceless. Trust me I wasn't happy with how Bonus Ball turned out and it screwed me up quite a bit financially but the memories, experience and friendships I have made because of it are something money cannot buy.

 

[JCIN]

I think the idea of the TAR studio was because as TAR upgraded their product more and more, it was almost impossible to travel the country to the gritty gambling matches with all of the equipment necessary. So the reverse was done and the players were brought to them. But if there was to be gambling, there had to be stakehorses, etc. cause we all know a pool player is not going to bet on himself. That made it even harder to have more consistency in matches in terms of having them on a regular basis to sustain TAR. So the pay for play practice came into effect.

This is spot on in every respect.

 

[Fast Lenny]

I think the idea of the TAR studio was because as TAR upgraded their product more and more, it was almost impossible to travel the country to the gritty gambling matches with all of the equipment necessary. So the reverse was done and the players were brought to them. But if there was to be gambling, there had to be stakehorses, etc. cause we all know a pool player is not going to bet on himself. That made it even harder to have more consistency in matches in terms of having them on a regular basis to sustain TAR. So the pay for play practice came into effect.

I for one, loved everything that TAR did. Integrity in pool can only be a good thing.

p.s. Bonus Ball only divided pool. Never helped it. And it was filled with lies from day one. That is where the failure started, festered and ended. If anyone thinks mosquitos outside caused Tunica to fail, well I guess keep thinking that. But this is the US and not the Philippines and pool is played indoors.

I do agree that at times, Mark has a way of viewing things from his standpoint - the 'dinnerbreakgate' from last years events in July when the Big Truck and Sky/Oscar were basically threatened to stop their gambling match is one thing that I will never agree with, no matter how someone tries to justify it.

p.s.s. To Jam, honestly you don't know point one of the TAR story so I am not surprised JCIN gave you the response he did.

I am not saying Bonus Ball didn't create some havoc in the pro side of the industry which is an utter joke and has been for a very long time but I find it funny its blamed for Tunicas demise. Here is a thread with people who went there and are recovering still from malaria.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=338317&highlight=mosquito

As for your statement on TAR it is very true from what I saw and I applaud the effort. I see nothing wrong with a challenge match and it was advertised as such. I enjoyed many of them and realize the trouble with setting up a gambling match. Really the only way to make it happen with stakehorses would be contracts and non refundable post money and penalties.

 

[JCIN]

You are right about the schedule, I know it was not intentional on Larrys part as I was there and saw the shit show front row with construction delays and BS beyond his control. I know you don't regret TAR though, you have some kick ass memories and met lots of great people which is priceless. Trust me I wasn't happy with how Bonus Ball turned out and it screwed me up quite a bit financially but the memories, experience and friendships I have made because of it are something money cannot buy.

I am grateful I was able to do all the things I did with TAR from the beginning all the way up to now. I made lifelong friends and met a lot of good people. Learned a great deal about life and people as well.

Mark and I don't see eye to eye on a lot of things now but I won't ever forget that without him TAR would of been something different and I was able to experience things because of his involvement I would not have otherwise.