Banks
Banned
Use the tip for avoiding the double kiss almost every day. That and a hair of inside on the cross corners. Now, if i could only shoot em straight.
Still working towards that fishing trip. Don't think I've forgotten!
curving an object ball....
- Thread starter John Brumback
- Start date
Use the tip for avoiding the double kiss almost every day. That and a hair of inside on the cross corners. Now, if i could only shoot em straight.
Still working towards that fishing trip. Don't think I've forgotten!
That is way off base. And I can prove it but I can't give all me secrets awayJB
What is off base?
You can prove WHAT exactly?
I was asking DrDave to clarify his (apparently) contradictory statements.
Thank you kindly.
Ok, but let me submit that the wording is atrocious. "Pockets playing bigger" and "Effective pocket size" seem synonymous, while neither describes the actual situation, which in one case isn't even happening at the pocket, but rather at the cushion.
Thank you kindly.
Below is the entire quote from the advantages of fast speed bank resource page. I think it explains things fairly well, but I'm still open for specific suggestions for improvement.
Here's the quote:
With faster speed, there is much less variation from table to table and from shot to shot. There are many variables that affect how a ball banks (cloth friction, cushion friction and coefficients of restitution, OB spin transfer, and table roll-off). At faster speed, these variables don't change the shot as much with slight changes in speed as they do with similar speed changes at slower speeds.
Also, at fast speed, the OB will pick up less roll into the rail (as compared to a slower bank, especially with the OB farther from the rail), and this (combined with the fast post-rebound speed) will minimize how much the OB curves forward after rebound (as compared to a slow-roll bank). As a result, the ball will bank in a more consistent direction. At slower speeds, the path and final target of the rebounding ball varies a lot with small changes in speed.
The disadvantage of faster speed is the reduced effective "size" of the pocket. For example, a slow-rolling ball is accepted by a corner pocket much more easily than a fast ball, especially if it doesn't have complete rolling topspin. However, the advantages listed above more than overcome this limitation. That's why most top bankers use fast speed on most bank shots (except where a two-way shot with pocket speed is a good play). Faster speed definitely makes banks higher percentage for people who have put in the practice time.
For banks into a corner pocket at shallow angles into the rail, using faster speed can also help make the angle into the rail even more shallow (since the ball banks short). This can help the corner pocket accept the ball more easily (especially if the ball has some topspin into the pocket), but this is a small effect compared to the others. And for banks into a side pocket, since the effective size of a side pocket is larger at steeper angles (more perpendicular to the rail) and faster speeds, banking short with fast speed helps enlarge the effective size of the pocket; but again, these effects are very small.
Faster speed can also help one avoid an obstacle ball or reduce the chance for a double kiss. For demonstrations, see double kiss detection and avoidance. And for more info, see kick and bank shot effects.
Also, there are reliable systems for aiming fast-speed bank shots.
Pretty much this. It's way too hard to control the angle at pocket speed. Just a small mishit can knock you off a huge amount. When you drill them in the exact speed is a lot less critical.
And spot on about the double kiss too. That comes up all the time. It makes complete sense that the default stroke for a bank should be very firm unless you have a reason to do something else. I think guys who have been playing a while do this naturally without even thinking about it, even if they don't know exactly why they're doing it.
Why did AZB get rid of the separate Aiming forum? Too much fighting probably ! ! Lol
Bingo!! :thumbup: John B.
I do have one; I really do.
Probably because the management came to their senses and realized that the proliferation of sub-forums was something that they did to accommodate a few loud, whiney-babies and that it was a mistake, as was the creation of most other sub-forums.
I guess they just decided to run their own business rather than have a minority dictating to them how they handle their affairs.
Businesses make corrections all of the time.
This latest correction was a good business decision on their part, imo. Now, who wants to learn about JoeyA's newest aiming system?
JoeyA
Probably because the management came to their senses and realized that the proliferation of sub-forums was something that they did to accommodate a few loud, whiney-babies and that it was a mistake, as was the creation of most other sub-forums.
I guess they just decided to run their own business rather than have a minority dictating to them how they handle their affairs.
Businesses make corrections all of the time.
This latest correction was a good business decision on their part, imo. Now, who wants to learn about JoeyA's newest aiming system?
JoeyA
I know side pockets play bigger at 90 degrees, but I'm having trouble understanding how a shallow angle on a corner pocket makes it play bigger. Doesn't it play biggest at 45 degrees? Not saying you shouldn't send the balls in firmly on a bank, for all of the other reasons, but it doesn't seem right that a shallow angle on a corner is an easier shot to sink than straight in at 45 degrees.
A corner does play much bigger at shallow angles to the rail for rolling-ball shots (especially at soft speed). For more info and illustrations, see the articles on the "effective size" of the pocket resource page.
Enjoy,
Dave
Last edited:
I'll look through it, thanks Dave. I've never really thought about it before.
The "Aiming Conversation" forum still exists; it's down in the "Instruction & Ask the pros" category -- w-a-y down there (and so is "Ask The Instructor").
As usual, that was a very interesting read, Dave! :thumbup:
I think it plays bigger at fast speeds too with the right spin.
Agreed. But with most banks, isn't the sidespin picked up off the cushion the wrong spin?
Regards,
Dave
Dave,
You might want to think about & consider sliced under spin shots in tennis or table tennis hit hard toward the end line & the exit angle compared to the entry angle vs a top spin shot of the same variety.
I am pretty sure the correct spin is still there on a firmly struck bank.
The inside english that shortens the ball also transfers the correct spin needed.
Maybe Mr. Brumback could confirm.
I'm not sure what type of bank shot you are referring to; but with most bank shots, the OB comes off the cushion with running spin (which is the wrong direction to help a bank into a corner). If a ball comes into a cushion with no sidespin, it always picks up running spin. And if a ball comes into a cushion with reverse, the ball usually comes off with running (i.e., the spin reverses off the cushion). Again, running spin is the wrong direction to help make a corner pocket play "bigger."
Check out the following videos. They clearly show the effects:
NV B.22 - Two-times and three-times across bank shots
HSV 6.13 - Ball banked fast into the rail with cut angle and english
HSV 6.5 - Cue ball kicked off a rail at an angle with stun
Now, if you kick the CB into a cushion with a lot of reverse sidespin, it can retain some of that spin, as shown in the following video:
HSV A.27 - Kick shot with small approach angle and reverse english
But bank shots won't typically have this much sidespin, because there is a limit to how much can be transferred to the OB (with cut angle or CB spin). Although, with really slick conditions, it is easier for a banked ball to retain reverse sidespin (and slick conditions also make the corner pockets play "bigger").
Regards,
Dave