Is that what you tell someone who comes to you for lessons?
(FAQ) How do you use the tangent line?
- Thread starter allanpsand
- Start date
Is that what you tell someone who comes to you for lessons?
"You need to play more. $100, please. When would you like your next lesson?"
Wow. You're really that interested in me? No, I don't do cookie cutter lessons like some instructors who say the same thing to every player. I work with players according to their needs. If someone wants to understand tangent lines, I'm happy to explain the concept to them. Also, if I think someone will benefit by understanding the concept of tangent lines I will offer it to them unsolicited. However, some players aren't so much for measuring but rather feeling. Those players would not benefit from discussions on tangent lines. Instructors have to understand how players assimilate information and help them accordingly.
I recall a particular pro who fell into a slump. I think he fell out of his stance and didn't realize it but nonetheless, he started developing an aiming system. It got him back on track and he shared his system with a lot of other players. Soon, many people, especially amateurs, became avid followers of his system --- but by then, he had already abandoned it and went back to feeling the shots, because he was back on track with his game.
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This ladies and gentlemen, is objectively the best post from an instructor I have ever read on this forum.
Fran, I'd take a lesson just on the basis that you understand there are different learning types. I'd also be happy that you won't move my elbow too much! It's a little outwards but nothing crazy and is straight up final stroke/impact.
Also, why was Rick banned?
Here are my thoughts...
-The tangent line concept is one of the most core and basic things in pool and is used extensively.
-Every good player (who is aware of the tangent line concept, and it is hard to imagine there would be many if any who aren't) consciously uses the tangent line at least occasionally to include you.
-Every good player uses the tangent line subconsciously on a significant portion of their shots.
-Conscious knowledge of the tangent line benefits every player (perhaps in some cases it could be very minimal but there are no exceptions). For a newer player it doesn't just make them better but it shortens their learning curve, and for an experienced player they are just a little bit more skilled with that knowledge than they would be without it (perhaps the difference would be very small in some cases but any improvement whatsoever is without a doubt worth the 3 minute time investment it takes to learn the tangent line concept).
-Any instructor that doesn't feel the tangent line concept is important for every player to know at some point in their progression is not just incompetent, but grossly incompetent.
Absolutely. I think it's the second most important concept to grasp after learning to aim. Aim. Tangent line. Stop shot. After those three things are learned, then you can start teaching position play, and how to move the cueball around the table.
I actually think the "peace sign" or "30 degree rule" (explained on Dr. Dave's site) is significantly more important than the tangent line, yet not discussed anywhere near as much. Knowing where the CB is going to go on a natural rolling hit is something that comes up way more often, IMO.
Gideon
The 30-degree rule is discussed at excruciating length with whole chapters devoted to it in English Billiards books, although the student is expected to learn the angle and its variations without a peace sign.
But in fairness I bet those books were written long before the peace sign came into common usage. :smile:
Gideon<----Never read a book on English Billiards
Couldn't agree more. Those are probably the three most fundamental and core concepts/skills in pool and as GideonF pointed out the 30 degree rule is probably right in there as well. It could be argued that stop shots should come before the tangent line though (since full use of the tangent line concept requires knowing how to have a sliding cue ball at contact) but the two are intertwined with each other enough that it is pretty close and a strong argument can also be made for teaching them at at the same time.
I've always thought it easier to know the tangent line first. Then, you can teach someone that natural roll, or follow, moves the cueball forward of the tangent line, and draw pulled the cueball back from the tangent line. But I agree that a natural rolling cueball and the 30 degree angle are also quite important. I just like knowing that 90 degree tangent line, because it starts from the contact point of the cueball and object ball, and gives a standard fixed line where the path isn't "approximately 90 degrees". It IS 90 degrees.
The mistake you're making here is in placing your own limitations on other people. Players absorb information differently. It's important to respect that.
Thanks so much. That's very kind of you but there are some great posts that have been made here by other instructors. I think Blackjack's stuff is practical and awesome.
And just because you are paranoid does not mean they aren't really chasing you. Agreed. But just because something is possible does not mean that it is likely. The key point that you never seem to consider is that when it is one hundred to one, or even three to one, or even one who is exceptionally credentialed against one who is not, there is no ambiguity about which side is right more often.
That doesn't mean you should just blindly accept something every time you are outnumbered or every time the person disagreeing with you is smarter or more experienced. What it does mean though is that in those cases especially you should be keeping an even more open mind than normal to the possibility that it could be you who is actually wrong, because not only is it a possibility it's more likely than not. One of your biggest problems seems to be that you are never open to the possibility that you could ever be wrong under any condition.
No mistake made in this case. While I agree that it is important to keep in mind how people learn, contrary to what you suggest everybody without exception will benefit from knowing the tangent line concept. When you couple that fact with the fact that it only takes a couple of minutes to learn, literally, there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever not to teach it or learn it, and sooner rather than later.
I think all posts by all professional instructors willing to participate on AZB are awesome, even if you, me or others don't always agree with the content, message or style of all of the posts.
Regards,
Dave
I'm not trying to down-grade the tangent line, but I learned it first - the "follow curves it forward, draw curves it back" - and IMO that is the wrong way to learn the follow angles. Natural rolling CB and approximately 30 degrees is way more accurate than 'follow takes the ball somewhere forward', which is how I learned it. That is not to say that there wasn't better information out there 15 years ago (I'm sure there was), but I didn't absorb it at the time.
Gideon
Robert Byrne showed the tangent line in his beginner video, and I found it to be a pretty good visual. He talked about spin and speed. The visual overlaid a tangent line, and he played stun shots, natural follow shots, and smooth draw shots. Then he unloaded a powerful 3 cushion stroke with top and bottom, and you saw the clear visual of the cueball following the tangent line until the spin grabbed, thus widening those natural angles. That visual stuck with me, and gave me a greater understanding of a rolling ball versus a skidding ball, vs a spinning ball. All from a tangent line explanation.