Darren Appleton's view on Tips - agree or disagree???

So here's an Interesting thought...

How many ppl have actually read what Darren had to say about tips and actually got off the couch, spent a few dollars to try it, and see if he's right before spewing off blasphemy!! I'm right, he's wrong, John Brumback let me show you what I read on dr Dave's website on how to make this bank.. See that? Now try that and maybe you'll win a bank championship.. gotta go.. I have to regurgitate more instructional material and help these pros win more titles.
 
IamCalvin06 said:
So here's an Interesting thought...

How many ppl have actually read what Darren had to say about tips and actually got off the couch, spent a few dollars to try it, and see if he's right before spewing off blasphemy!! I'm right, he's wrong, John Brumback let me show you what I read on dr Dave's website on how to make this bank.. See that? Now try that and maybe you'll win a bank championship.. gotta go.. I have to regurgitate more instructional material and help these pros win more titles.
Click to expand...

You don't think most of us have tried different tips? 30 years ago, all of this tip nonsense was irrelevant because everyone either played Le Pro/Triangle if they liked a firmer tip, and Elk Master if they liked a softer tip. Now the tip has become this expensive accessory that has to be finely tuned to your skill level/stroke/whatever or you'll suck. It's never mattered that much, and it still doesn't matter that much.
 
IamCalvin06 said:
So here's an Interesting thought...

How many ppl have actually read what Darren had to say about tips and actually got off the couch, spent a few dollars to try it, and see if he's right before spewing off blasphemy!! I'm right, he's wrong, John Brumback let me show you what I read on dr Dave's website on how to make this bank.. See that? Now try that and maybe you'll win a bank championship.. gotta go.. I have to regurgitate more instructional material and help these pros win more titles.
Click to expand...



I did some research on this matter a while back, link below.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5187960&postcount=73

And after that I have experimentated with some 30 tips more of different hardnesses after that and I stand my ground with the results, softer tip doesnt correlate to more spin, atleast not with my stroke :) I find medium to medium hard tips the nicest to play with but thats just my opinion, yours may differ :o
 
IamCalvin06 said:
So here's an Interesting thought...

How many ppl have actually read what Darren had to say about tips and actually got off the couch, spent a few dollars to try it, and see if he's right before spewing off blasphemy!! I'm right, he's wrong, John Brumback let me show you what I read on dr Dave's website on how to make this bank.. See that? Now try that and maybe you'll win a bank championship.. gotta go.. I have to regurgitate more instructional material and help these pros win more titles.
Click to expand...

Blasphemous? Are you nutz?
I, like many others here, have been playing pool for a very long time. I've probably gone through more tips than you've had wake-ups.
In addition, back in the day when I was installing tips, the tip of choice by the best players was a hard one, and almost always single-layered.
For the past 20 years I have been playing One Pocket (germane to the Op's question) with a medium tip, and the past 5 with one of Tom Hays little jewels (also a medium).
What the hell does a pro know that I don't?
 
HawaiianEye said:
That is exactly why I don't want a really hard tip on my cue. I don't want the cue ball to go flying when I barely tap it. I want to feel the cue ball and let my stroke determine whether it goes "flying" or not.
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I play with a pressed elk master and a very heavy shaft and I can still hit the ball just as softly as anyone else. I like not having to muscle the ball around, however I love having that extra power in the top end.
 
I have to believe the tip makes some difference. As I've shared before, I've got a table with very slow cloth, and I've only found one tip that will draw a ball on it. On most tables, I can draw a ball the length of the table, but not on this one. By the way, the tip is a soft triangle, if my memory serves me correctly.
 
IamCalvin06 said:
So here's an Interesting thought...

How many ppl have actually read what Darren had to say about tips and actually got off the couch, spent a few dollars to try it, and see if he's right before spewing off blasphemy!! I'm right, he's wrong, John Brumback let me show you what I read on dr Dave's website on how to make this bank.. See that? Now try that and maybe you'll win a bank championship.. gotta go.. I have to regurgitate more instructional material and help these pros win more titles.
Click to expand...

I don't remember anyone telling Darren what to do. I certainly don't need him to tell me which tip to use.
 
Tramp Steamer said:
Blasphemous? Are you nutz?
I, like many others here, have been playing pool for a very long time. I've probably gone through more tips than you've had wake-ups.
In addition, back in the day when I was installing tips, the tip of choice by the best players was a hard one, and almost always single-layered.
For the past 20 years I have been playing One Pocket (germane to the Op's question) with a medium tip, and the past 5 with one of Tom Hays little jewels (also a medium).
What the hell does a pro know that I don't?
Click to expand...

I've always played non-layered tips too, and finally settled on Ultraskins. It's the only layered tip I've ever liked.

Anyway, FWIW I'm sure Darren means well. I've never met him, but he always seems to act like a gentleman.
 
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john coloccia said:
You don't think most of us have tried different tips? 30 years ago, all of this tip nonsense was irrelevant because everyone either played Le Pro/Triangle if they liked a firmer tip, and Elk Master if they liked a softer tip. Now the tip has become this expensive accessory that has to be finely tuned to your skill level/stroke/whatever or you'll suck. It's never mattered that much, and it still doesn't matter that much.
Click to expand...

Actually 30 years ago there were still a lot of brands of tips only they weren't layered tips. People used to swear by Chandivert tips, a true French tip made in France.

I also used to think that tips don't matter much. I am also a shitty player despite having had a few moments of brilliance that made me think I am a much better player than I actually am.

I sold layered tips for a couple years in 2000-2002. During that time I bought a durometer and did a bunch of tests with 6oz hammers to try to understand the dynamics. My conclusion was then that most tips would reach about the same hardness after so many hits.

But the fact is that hardness alone doesn't tell the whole tale. For example what's the difference between a layered tip at 75 and a single layer tip at 75? I don't know because that would require more research but I can tell you that those two tips don't feel the same and the difference is noticeable.

The equipment does make a difference and if anyone wants to bet HIGH and let me choose the cue and tip and chalk they use I am willing to test out my statement by betting a $1000. How much of a difference matters more as the player gets better in the sense that they are much more in touch with the feel side of pool than amateurs are.

However if you put five tips of different hardnesses on five nearly identical shafts it's unlikely that any professional could accurately identify the hardness of each tip with consistency. Nor could any amateur.

So Darren's statement is of course an opinion based on his personal experience and observation but much less rooted in established research. Talking out of his ass though is a bit strong because as much as we amateurs love to believe that we could be top players if only......the fact is that we aren't and our mortgage doesn't depend on being able to precisely move the cue ball consistently.

I spent some time with Jose Parica and he was trying to teach me how to feather a ball. He would demonstrate and I would butcher it, over and over, finally in exasperation I said to Jose, "I understand what you are saying, I see you doing it, but I can't do it." However I did absorb the information and kept practicing and now years later I can feather a ball much better and don't butcher it every time.
 
The Renfro said:
Sorry one stroke I will continue to disagree based upon my experiences in talking to actual cuemakers and industry people who do pool as a profession and not as amateurs...

Spring rates/COR and Spin/Speed ratio are still not even part of the discussion because of the old information that was published as science...

Contact time was previously said to be too short for anything done during the stroke to matter....

Things keep changing... The pros keep shooting at world class levels and I will keep testing to establish a better understanding while talking to them...

Nothing we have done is published and no one has looked at it here in the states in an even remotely close way aside from Tony at Blackboar.... As long as tip to cueball contact is treated as a solid impact what you read won't explain what happens except at the high end where tips are compressed into a solid regardless of hardness.......

Just the fact they don't know any of these things doesn't put an amatuer on the same level as pro players who don't know them... simply because of the vast number of hours they have put in refining their skills that an amateur has not..

I've learned pro players generally figure things from experience and it takes discussion to find those thing out because the vocabulary isn't in place... Could an amateur discover something? Absolutely but in the wide world of experience the chances are tiny in comparison.

In the US it seems every amateur thinks they could be a pro if only they quit their jobs and played 8 hours a day and it's hurting the game.... For the vast majority they are the guy watching Thursday night baseball on the couch drinking a beer thinking I could have done that... They have about the same chances as far as finding world class speed...
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I agree that the opinion of contact time to short to matter is the biggest misconception ever.
We don't care about how long but how different. Let's say phenolic contact time is 1/10s and soft leather is 3/10s.
So the contact time of the soft leather is freaking 3 times more than phenolic.
Any college physics student can show you the diffence in the amount of Work, energy transfer, or angular momentum of the CB in both cases.
At a simplest simplest level, ceteris paribus, Soft tip no doubt gives more spin but transfer less energy to the CB than a hard one.

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk
 
Patrick Johnson, missing this thread, must be wringing his hands until they blister and bleed.

JoeyA
 
JB Cases said:
Actually 30 years ago there were still a lot of brands of tips only they weren't layered tips. People used to swear by Chandivert tips, a true French tip made in France.

I also used to think that tips don't matter much. I am also a shitty player despite having had a few moments of brilliance that made me think I am a much better player than I actually am.

I sold layered tips for a couple years in 2000-2002. During that time I bought a durometer and did a bunch of tests with 6oz hammers to try to understand the dynamics. My conclusion was then that most tips would reach about the same hardness after so many hits.

But the fact is that hardness alone doesn't tell the whole tale. For example what's the difference between a layered tip at 75 and a single layer tip at 75? I don't know because that would require more research but I can tell you that those two tips don't feel the same and the difference is noticeable.

The equipment does make a difference and if anyone wants to bet HIGH and let me choose the cue and tip and chalk they use I am willing to test out my statement by betting a $1000. How much of a difference matters more as the player gets better in the sense that they are much more in touch with the feel side of pool than amateurs are.

However if you put five tips of different hardnesses on five nearly identical shafts it's unlikely that any professional could accurately identify the hardness of each tip with consistency. Nor could any amateur.

So Darren's statement is of course an opinion based on his personal experience and observation but much less rooted in established research. Talking out of his ass though is a bit strong because as much as we amateurs love to believe that we could be top players if only......the fact is that we aren't and our mortgage doesn't depend on being able to precisely move the cue ball consistently.

I spent some time with Jose Parica and he was trying to teach me how to feather a ball. He would demonstrate and I would butcher it, over and over, finally in exasperation I said to Jose, "I understand what you are saying, I see you doing it, but I can't do it." However I did absorb the information and kept practicing and now years later I can feather a ball much better and don't butcher it every time.
Click to expand...

When designing the Ki-Techs I was trying to determine the proper COR for each of our grades from Soft to Hard.... I did the blind testing and players can perceive a difference of 5% COR....

Each step up in grade for the Ki-Techs was set at 5% and local players could put them in order from Soft to Hard... Now could they have said a tip was a M/S or Soft or a M/H or M without comparing the hits all of all of them? Possibly not as that was not the focus of the test....

As a caveat COR has more to do with a tips playing grade than the actual durometer reading... Our Soft tests higher on the Durometer than the Medium/Soft or Medium but transfers 5% and 10% less energy respectively....
 
pt109 said:
And PJ's opinion would be worth perusing...
...most of my favorite posts by PJ were on the main forum...
...on NPR, we were on opposite sides, often.

I hope his ban is not permanent
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PJ would post whatever he found on Dave's site he thinks pertinent... Like

most contact times (i.e., for most tips and most speeds) are very close to a thousandth of a second (0.001 sec).
a soft tip at slow speed has a longer contact time (about 0.002 sec), but still extremely small.
a very hard tip (e.g., phenolic) at fast speed has a shorter contact time (about 0.0005 sec).

even links the Russian videos but they never tested a soft tip. They tested phenolic .8ms and a moori medium 2ms if you follow the link http://dbkcues.ru/2011/06/12/another-couple-of-hs-video-now-24-000-fps/?lang=en..... Not sure why the grades and the phenolic contact time was reported incorrectly but the video refutes all 3 claims above....

Based upon the testing it is possible that a soft or extras soft tip may exceed 3ms or even approach 4ms widening that window on being able to influence things during contact and bringing shaft movement more into the equation.. Maybe we cannot react fast enough but thru practice and preparation things can get interesting....
 
It's all very interesting, but from a player's perspective why is it any more complicated than try different tips and see which one you like best?
 
john coloccia said:
It's all very interesting, but from a player's perspective why is it any more complicated than try different tips and see which one you like best?
Click to expand...

Green to you sir... That's pretty much what it comes down to... Recommendations can put you into a zipcode but in the end you likely have to find the final address....
 
JB Cases said:
Actually 30 years ago there were still a lot of brands of tips only they weren't layered tips. People used to swear by Chandivert tips, a true French tip made in France.

I also used to think that tips don't matter much. I am also a shitty player despite having had a few moments of brilliance that made me think I am a much better player than I actually am.

I sold layered tips for a couple years in 2000-2002. During that time I bought a durometer and did a bunch of tests with 6oz hammers to try to understand the dynamics. My conclusion was then that most tips would reach about the same hardness after so many hits.

But the fact is that hardness alone doesn't tell the whole tale. For example what's the difference between a layered tip at 75 and a single layer tip at 75? I don't know because that would require more research but I can tell you that those two tips don't feel the same and the difference is noticeable.

The equipment does make a difference and if anyone wants to bet HIGH and let me choose the cue and tip and chalk they use I am willing to test out my statement by betting a $1000. How much of a difference matters more as the player gets better in the sense that they are much more in touch with the feel side of pool than amateurs are.

However if you put five tips of different hardnesses on five nearly identical shafts it's unlikely that any professional could accurately identify the hardness of each tip with consistency. Nor could any amateur.

So Darren's statement is of course an opinion based on his personal experience and observation but much less rooted in established research. Talking out of his ass though is a bit strong because as much as we amateurs love to believe that we could be top players if only......the fact is that we aren't and our mortgage doesn't depend on being able to precisely move the cue ball consistently.

I spent some time with Jose Parica and he was trying to teach me how to feather a ball. He would demonstrate and I would butcher it, over and over, finally in exasperation I said to Jose, "I understand what you are saying, I see you doing it, but I can't do it." However I did absorb the information and kept practicing and now years later I can feather a ball much better and don't butcher it every time.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure there would be several pro's who could tell the tips at opposite ends of the spectrum ones close would obviously be harder
Im pretty sure I can tell between a Elk Master and a Lepro with in 5 shots by not only feel but sound along with the results of the shot in fact I'm going thru it right now as I just had 2 shafts re tipped with super soft Kumui's some of the soft shots I can hardly feel feed back at all

1
 
With a higher "grip" of a soft and negligible longer contact, which of course also depends on the shafts end mass, and the higher transfer of energy with a harder tip.........no wonder why a triangle is pretty dam swell. It's a medium tip. Right in the middle. I mean I don't like a dodgy whippet cue/shaft, but I also don't want to play with any rigid pipe of a cue, my own cues play more on the stiff side but in general a cue reall should be a middle ground player.....just like a jump break is neither the best for breaking nor for jumping but they do both very well, like a masse cue won't jump as easily as a jumper, but it can jump. What's the best tip? The one that does it all as best as it could. Saying hard/soft is best ca only be for particulars.....just like we would never as a player or an instructor advise another player "oh shoot all the shots softly, or shoot all the shots at break speed. The typical playing speed is "medium" the middle.....but of course you will have to perform very soft shots and some very speedy powerful shots.....but no souls arguing that point. I think it should apply directly to the cues and their tips as well. I'm a triangle kid! I talk in triangles. I see through triangulation....I think this is a conspiracy against the greyghost by tweeten lol. Triangles everywhere!

I see dead people, (fog breath out)
Greyghost


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
So I've played with other people's cues that have soft tips on them, but never put one on my own cue. I've always used Le Pro, Triangle, and now Medium and Hard layered tips, and I never noticed much difference in cue ball action compared to the soft tipped cue, just casually shooting around with them for a couple of minutes.

I decided to put it to the test. I installed a very soft tip on my main playing cue, and committed to keeping it on there for a couple of weeks. I have a lot of time on it now, including a couple of 14.1 matches, and here are my personal conclusions:

- Softer tip was generally nice for 14.1. I could let my stroke out a bit without slamming balls around the table, so speed control was generally a little easier

- I noticed exactly zero difference in the amount of spin I was getting for most shots. The only adjustment for me was getting used to hitting the balls just a touch harder than normal. I changed nothing else.

- Now here's what I didn't expect. Long draw shots were dramatically WORSE. I had to really slam the ball to get enough speed/spin. For example, if I'm shooting about the length of the table, a stop shot for me is normally just a nice, comfortable stroke. With the soft tip, that same stroke ended up with a sluggish cue ball and it was rolling by the time it got to the object ball. I suddenly had to juice it just to get a long stop shot. I was fully expecting to see no difference. This really surprised me.

Anyhow, I'm going back to medium and hard tips. Until I got to some stroke shots, I was very unexpectedly liking the soft tip a lot, but I started missing some long shots that I shouldn't miss because I had swing the cue so much harder than normal sometimes.

I know it runs against the conventional wisdom, but I wonder if anyone else has had the same experience?
 
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