Ginacue popped over ivory, hopefully much or all fake.

[dom_poppa]

The shady backroom dealings of cue maker and dealers is being expose.

We have always heard about a wait list but dealers always have new cues fresh from 'wait list' makers.

Dealers help drive an artificial demand for a cue maker by buying in bulks. This guy has 85k worth of ginacues and probably cash out double in the asian market.

To tell me a cue maker doesn't know what's going is crazy.

Just like that guy, friend of black boar always seem to have a new bb cue but bb is on a wait list? He hoards them and flips it on the secondary for double the price.

Cue makers dont have the heart to charge these prices. Start a faux wait list and let the dealers deal with it.

 

[CJH]

The shady backroom dealings of cue maker and dealers is being expose.

We have always heard about a wait list but dealers always have new cues fresh from 'wait list' makers.

Dealers help drive an artificial demand for a cue maker by buying in bulks. This guy has 85k worth of ginacues and probably cash out double in the asian market.

To tell me a cue maker doesn't know what's going is crazy.

Just like that guy, friend of black boar always seem to have a new bb cue but bb is on a wait list? He hoards them and flips it on the secondary for double the price.

Cue makers dont have the heart to charge these prices. Start a faux wait list and let the dealers deal with it.

These guys have to scrape out a living which is not easy to do making custom pool cues.
I know of one well known cue maker that lives basically month to month. I know of another one that had to take on a full time job to make ends meat so now he puts out fewer cues each year. But lets consider Black Boar since you mentioned them. Tony puts out 10 cues per year now but for arguments sake, lets call it 12. And lets say he makes 5 collectables which he will sell for $25k each and 7 blackwood player cues which he will sell for on average of $8K each. His total revenue mentioned here is $181,000. Lets say I have underestimated this and call it $300,000 off the sale of 12 cues (I know he does not make more than 12). From $300k he has to cover himself and Donnie plus all expenses which includes the shop, materials, machinery, etc. Get the picture?
If he makes a few extra bucks through his relationship with a dealer, all the power to him. Why shouldn't he?

 

[Pangit]

I have warned for years that it is a crapshoot playing games with customs shipping cues with ivory or toting them in and out the country. Now Ernie has gotten nailed with something he may not have realized was even a crime, he sold to someone who turned around and exported the cues or cue pieces with ivory. The sentence isn't a small one, potentially ten years, and with Ginicue's high profile they may well make an example out of him. Doing any time at all will absolutely suck in your late seventies!

If you are going to own ivory and move it across borders be very sure you know the laws and have proper documentation. In this case Ernie Gutierrez just sold to someone who then broke the law. Apparently, customs is claiming foreknowledge or something.

Pool makes international news, as usual it is with a black eye.

Hu

"Seventy-five-year-old Cesar "Ernie" Gutierrez surrendered Thursday. He's accused of aiding and abetting illegal exportation - which can carry a 10-year prison term."

I find it a paradox that anyone would hope that Cesar "Ernie" Gutierrez was selling $85,000 worth of cue parts with "Fake Ivory" bits and pieces. Wouldn't that soil his good name as a high end cue maker?

 

[classiccues]

This is absolute bunk...

Do you know when Chady ordered the cues? Do you know how long he waited for them? Do you know if these were Gina's 50th anniversary cues that were being made, (50) so they WOULD be available to anyone that wanted to by them?

Do you know Ernie doesn't normally discount? That means dealers pay RETAIL, just like you or anyone else.

Dealers do not drive up demand by buying I'm "bulk", they normally get on the list like everyone else. However since the dealer probably helped the guy get a name to begin with, by buying the makers cue when the maker was a NOBODY, that entitles him to whatever deal there is between the two parties. Its funny that no one *****es when the cuemaker is unknown and they could have gotten a cue in a few months, but then we he gets a name and they have to get on a 3-5 year list, its a "dealers" fault.

When someone INVESTS time and money into something, and there is a payoff, you cannot cry about it.

You can however look in a mirror and say.. wow if I wasn't such a cheap ass, I could have that guys cues in a year and not 4.

JV

The shady backroom dealings of cue maker and dealers is being expose.

We have always heard about a wait list but dealers always have new cues fresh from 'wait list' makers.

Dealers help drive an artificial demand for a cue maker by buying in bulks. This guy has 85k worth of ginacues and probably cash out double in the asian market.

To tell me a cue maker doesn't know what's going is crazy.

Just like that guy, friend of black boar always seem to have a new bb cue but bb is on a wait list? He hoards them and flips it on the secondary for double the price.

Cue makers dont have the heart to charge these prices. Start a faux wait list and let the dealers deal with it.

 

[dom_poppa]

These guys have to scrape out a living which is not easy to do making custom pool cues.

I know of one well known cue maker that lives basically month to month. I know of another one that had to take on a full time job to make ends meat so now he puts out fewer cues each year. But lets consider Black Boar since you mentioned them. Tony puts out 10 cues per year now but for arguments sake, lets call it 12. And lets say he makes 5 collectables which he will sell for $25k each and 7 blackwood player cues which he will sell for on average of $8K each. His total revenue mentioned here is $181,000. Lets say I have underestimated this and call it $300,000 off the sale of 12 cues (I know he does not make more than 12). From $300k he has to cover himself and Donnie plus all expenses which includes the shop, materials, machinery, etc. Get the picture?

If he makes a few extra bucks through his relationship with a dealer, all the power to him. Why shouldn't he?

Not saying cue makers shouldn't make a living.

My point and example relates to Ginacue knowing where the cues were going since many have a personal relationship with their dealers. You sort of made my point for me.


Also, there was a cue maker here, I won't mention his name, was accused of 'pumping and dumping' by members here. He stated a waiting list for his cues. His buddy sold his cues brand new 5 to 10 at a time for higher price than what you would get from said maker. Cues were listed as current model and brand new.

I get it...its what consumers want to pay but lets not act like its an ethical business model.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Just like that guy, friend of black boar always seem to have a new bb cue but bb is on a wait list? He hoards them and flips it on the secondary for double the price.

Black Boar has a wait list? Really?
How can he have a wait list if he gets you your cue that you ordered in like 6 months?
Tony has always been a very straight forward person.
You buy a cue, he makes you a cue, you go on your way.
There has never been any waiting a decade or so, for one of his cues.

As for the dealers, i guess you weren't at SBE talking to him and listening to him get pumped up and angry when talking about dealers trying to cash in on his work, and how he would rather go room to room, and put cues in players hands personally, just to cut the dealers out.

You'd do best not lump all cuemakers together.
There are some scumbags for sure, but not all are.

 

[dom_poppa]

Black Boar has a wait list? Really?

How can he have a wait list if he gets you your cue that you ordered in like 6 months?

Tony has always been a very straight forward person.

You buy a cue, he makes you a cue, you go on your way.

There has never been any waiting a decade or so, for one of his cues.



As for the dealers, i guess you weren't at SBE talking to him and listening to him get pumped up and angry when talking about dealers trying to cash in on his work, and how he would rather go room to room, and put cues in players hands personally, just to cut the dealers out.



You'd do best not lump all cuemakers together.

There are some scumbags for sure, but not all are.

Ok. You're right.

I was just using them as a vague example. He does great work and one of the best. It can be argued that he is the best.

..but i hope you understand the point i was trying to make.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Ok. You're right.

I was just using them as a vague example. He does great work and one of the best. It can be argued that he is the best.

..but i hope you understand the point i was trying to make.

Oh I do understand.
You just happened to use the wrong guy as an example. LOL

You would have been better off talking about SouthWest or Tascarella, where they take forever, and in some cases, put their mistakes off on the customer when they don't deliver what was ordered, and the customer is stuck figuring out whether to accept something they didn't want, or refuse it and let their total cue time to be 20 years.

Then, you can blab about dealers all you want.
But Tony?
He has the quickest time for delivery out of anyone, AND he commands high prices.
More cuemakers should emulate him.
I think they just get all caught up in the glory of the wait time mystique, and it affords them the ability to shaft the customer in the case they happen to be lazy.
Plus, how many guys croak while waiting and they just pocket the deposit?
I wonder

 

[ShootingArts]

synthetic sound better?

I find it a paradox that anyone would hope that Cesar "Ernie" Gutierrez was selling $85,000 worth of cue parts with "Fake Ivory" bits and pieces. Wouldn't that soil his good name as a high end cue maker?

Does "synthetic ivory" sound better? Nothing wrong with using "fake" "synthetic" "false" "faux" ivory as long is it is made plain to the customer that is what is being used. Customs seized a cue in the past and held it for several years because it contained fake ivory. My thought was that the customs people wouldn't know one from the other without testing, maybe even after a field test which is just pressing a hot wire to it the last I knew. Damages the cue, and has to be done to every item. The item is judged by the way it smells burning and the finish is part of that smell. Seems likely that mistakes could be made with such a crude test.

Synthetic ivory has grain and texture, it is far more than white plastic. The last I bought was ten years ago and was thirty dollars a foot for joint material then buying bulk. I prefer the synthetic ivory because of far better consistency than real ivory and the slightly offwhite color and texture makes it an excellent stand in for ivory. No possible issues other than mistaken identity, looks good, the only thing it lacks in my opinion is snob appeal.

Some may be sold on the hit of ivory but particularly once beyond the ferrule I doubt they can tell the difference between the hit of ivory and false ivory in blind testing.

The whole pool cue ivory thing is BS. The ivory in one tusk is more than typical cue builders use in a lifetime. Unless a cue builder uses a lot of ivory joints and buttcaps one tusk would supply a half dozen builders or more for a lifetime. Also, ivory that is less than decades old is worthless for cue building. The tiny amount of ivory brought to the US these days are legal trophies from kills by elephant hunters. Almost every crumb of illegal ivory that leaves Africa goes to Asia.

What is in play here is a crazy regulation passed in the CITES treaties making it illegal to move legal ivory between CITES signees. "Legal ivory" is converted to "illegal ivory" by virtue of crossing a border! Best I recall there are over two hundred countries that are signees of the CITES treaties so if you move ivory across a border you have pretty surely made it illegal ivory barring small exceptions and with proper documentation.

It seems that there has been a modification I am not familiar with and this may make this case unravel, the value of the ivory is a consideration now. While there might have been 75,000-85,000 worth of cues attempted to be exported the value of the ivory is small. Per cue I think it is likely to be under the small amounts limit. If there are no ivory joints and buttcaps the whole shipment may be under the limit. This is getting into intricacies of the law I don't claim to understand but may help Ernie.

Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

dealer orders

This is absolute bunk...

Do you know when Chady ordered the cues? Do you know how long he waited for them? Do you know if these were Gina's 50th anniversary cues that were being made, (50) so they WOULD be available to anyone that wanted to by them?

Do you know Ernie doesn't normally discount? That means dealers pay RETAIL, just like you or anyone else.

Dealers do not drive up demand by buying I'm "bulk", they normally get on the list like everyone else. However since the dealer probably helped the guy get a name to begin with, by buying the makers cue when the maker was a NOBODY, that entitles him to whatever deal there is between the two parties. Its funny that no one *****es when the cuemaker is unknown and they could have gotten a cue in a few months, but then we he gets a name and they have to get on a 3-5 year list, its a "dealers" fault.

When someone INVESTS time and money into something, and there is a payoff, you cannot cry about it.

You can however look in a mirror and say.. wow if I wasn't such a cheap ass, I could have that guys cues in a year and not 4.

JV

Something else you didn't mention, dealers often have standing orders or keep ordering more cues every few months. Something else with a waiting list, I waited almost a year for three rifle barrels. Some dealers get ten or fifteen barrels a month, every month. Standing orders so once they have waited their turn the first time, their new orders keep coming to the top of the list over and over as their wait time ends. Nothing unfair about that and it gives the barrel maker or cue builder a comfort zone knowing that he has so many sales every month that he can count on.

I don't think much of dealers or big players getting special consideration and jumping the line. That is rarely the case though. Usually a matter of dealers keeping standing orders of what they have demand for.

Hu

 

[classiccues]

Also very true.. I am just a little sick of hearing its the dealers fault when something happens. We plunk down our money like everyone else, and some times before the cuemaker is established. When the cue market was flying it had nothing to do with dealers, and having the ability to test a cue before you buy or anything like that, but when the market is south, or you can't get a cue from a maker, its all the dealers fault. Really? Because dealers actually know the score.. dealers get bumped just like you do. When some well to do buyer comes along, usually introduced to the cuemaker by the dealer, the dealer gets tossed aside like yesterdays trash. It happens to us, just like YOU. I won't mention any names, but I know it happens, and it has happened not just to us. This is a risk that all dealers know going in, I just want to emphasize that its not all sunshine and unicorns.

Back to the ivory at hand.... this is a headline that even made capecod.com, so this will be circulated through all the wild life sites pretty quickly so they can show that something has been done. If Ernie gets off, then they are going to cry foul and your going to see an Elephant Lives Matter movement, if I had to guess...

JV

Something else you didn't mention, dealers often have standing orders or keep ordering more cues every few months. Something else with a waiting list, I waited almost a year for three rifle barrels. Some dealers get ten or fifteen barrels a month, every month. Standing orders so once they have waited their turn the first time, their new orders keep coming to the top of the list over and over as their wait time ends. Nothing unfair about that and it gives the barrel maker or cue builder a comfort zone knowing that he has so many sales every month that he can count on.

I don't think much of dealers or big players getting special consideration and jumping the line. That is rarely the case though. Usually a matter of dealers keeping standing orders of what they have demand for.

Hu

 

[BmoreMoney]

As to what Ernie " should have " known - I am not making this a legal observation but rather a common sense one. I do know that most of the time the " law " does not follow the common sense route. There's plenty about this that we do not know, but what we do know - transaction occurred well before the July cut off. IMO, I don't think any reasonable people would expect a cue maker to definitively know where / what is going to happen to the cues he sells. I do believe it to be Ernie's responsibility to know and follow the laws in what state he operates in. I could even maybe see a case be made he should know US federal regs, but IN NO WAY would I think he should need to know the laws of whatever country his product MIGHT go to - especially considering he was not the one trying to ship anything out of the country. This is in response to someone's comment earlier that he should have known the law in xxxx country.

As to the size of the purchase and dealer purchases. Once again, he follows the laws of the state and country he is operating in so why should he be responsible for what SOMEONE ELSE does? Personal responsibility ? ??? Off topic but it was mentioned earlier in this thread : in regards to waiting lists and dealers that charge a premium for a cue makers cue. With some having LONG waiting lists what's wrong with someone who is WILLING to pay extra so they do not have to wait? Quite simple as far as I can see, if someone has the money and is not a tight ass and CHOOSES to pay whatever from a dealer to get the cue they want right now as opposed to having wait a year or more then so what? No one is forcing them to do anything and it is THEIR money. It's called business and it happens all the time in all walks of life. Couple examples : when a new limited edition, special edition car is announced and they are only gonna be making xxxx of them dealers start taking orders because by the time they finally hit the showrooms they are already sold. Dealerships will often sell them tens of thousands over sticker price. Does anyone see anything wrong with that? Simple supply and demand. Simply business.These things we are talking about are not staples, they are luxury items and you gotta pay to play to say. On a more day to day type example - flying. You can pay a surcharge and you get to get in an " express " security screening lane and cut your wait by 50%-75% or more. Anyone have a problem with that? Theme parks: you can buy the more expensive tickets / memberships and not have to wait in those rediculous lines with all those smelly folks. Problem there?

I'm fairly certain the only people that have a problem with dealers making money on a cue are the ones that can't / don't want to pay the extra money and are not looking at it for what it is - a convenience. We pay for conveniences just about every day. Such as on 95 around here we have an " express " lane where you can just fly right on by all those miles of stop and go rush hour traffic - for a couple bucks. Anyone think that is unfair or a bad idear ?

 

[NYC cue dude]

Obviously, the Feds ENTIRE case comes down to having evidence, either digital or in writing, that Ernie knew in advance where these cues were going to. Period. If they have copies of estimates, bill of sales, or general correspondence, where it indicates the cue materials and the intention to export out of the USA, he's in trouble. If they have Chady's emails, even, and that sort of info was in there, he's in trouble. But short of the Feds putting their hands on that sort of specific proof, then Ernie will get off, and rightly so. IMO, I can't imagine a defense for Chady, though. These laws suck in light of the the already stringent requirements that all legal ivory must be documented pre ban material. To retroactively legislate that what was previously legal to utilize is now made to be a felony, by bureaucratic fiat, is outrageous. Ultimately, I hope Ernie is vindicated and emerges from all this unfazed. He'll be a little lighter in the pocketbook, but if he can avoid the stresses of this process, I'd call it a win.

 

[bdorman]

Obviously, the Feds ENTIRE case comes down to having evidence, either digital or in writing, that Ernie knew in advance where these cues were going to. Period. If they have copies of estimates, bill of sales, or general correspondence, where it indicates the cue materials and the intention to export out of the USA, he's in trouble. If they have Chady's emails, even, and that sort of info was in there, he's in trouble. But short of the Feds putting their hands on that sort of specific proof, then Ernie will get off, and rightly so. IMO, I can't imagine a defense for Chady, though. These laws suck in light of the the already stringent requirements that all legal ivory must be documented pre ban material. To retroactively legislate that what was previously legal to utilize is now made to be a felony, by bureaucratic fiat, is outrageous. Ultimately, I hope Ernie is vindicated and emerges from all this unfazed. He'll be a little lighter in the pocketbook, but if he can avoid the stresses of this process, I'd call it a win.

Ernie will be a LOT lighter in the pocketbook...if he wants to fight it and clear his name. About $50-60K in lawyer's fees, plus untold lost hours when he could be making cues. The prosecutors will bury him in discovery demands...and when he's done giving them everything they asked for, they'll ask for it again...and again...and again.

The only cheap way (<$30K) out of this is to reach a settlement in which he confesses to doing something he didn't do, promise to never do it again and probably turn all his ivory inventory over to the feds.

It's NOT about justice or laws. It's about publicity.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Before this thread slides off the political cliff, let's make sure that that everyone keeps in mind ..........


Just because you are charged, or indicted. with a crime, it still remains a given that this has to be proven.


Until Ernie is actually found to be guilty, or overwhelming evidence is released convincing me otherwise,
he is completely innocent........he has a sterling record as a cue-maker and despite never having had the
pleasure of making his acquaintance, I view him to be a honest person so until the verdict comes in......
let's give this a rest about his innocence or guilt....debating the impact of the ban has more more merit or
what everyone can do to discourage or help defeat this abortion of a law from spreading even further.


In the meantime, what's the best cue show next year in Las Vegas? I have a EP cue that I'd sell if I could
locate the right Hercek cue and as you can tell, Ed has stopped making flat ivory joint cues & has abandoned
using ivory so perhaps the overall demand and interest in my cue will benefit. I sure hope so since the Hercek
design I'd want would have to use ivory and Joel's cue designs can become pretty expensive. In the meantime,
here's my EP cue & unless the CA ban is overturned or Ed moves, there will never be any more EP ivory cues.


Matt B.

 

[Kid Dynomite]

Obviously, the Feds ENTIRE case comes down to having evidence, either digital or in writing, that Ernie knew in advance where these cues were going to. Period. If they have copies of estimates, bill of sales, or general correspondence, where it indicates the cue materials and the intention to export out of the USA, he's in trouble. If they have Chady's emails, even, and that sort of info was in there, he's in trouble. But short of the Feds putting their hands on that sort of specific proof, then Ernie will get off, and rightly so. IMO, I can't imagine a defense for Chady, though. These laws suck in light of the the already stringent requirements that all legal ivory must be documented pre ban material. To retroactively legislate that what was previously legal to utilize is now made to be a felony, by bureaucratic fiat, is outrageous. Ultimately, I hope Ernie is vindicated and emerges from all this unfazed. He'll be a little lighter in the pocketbook, but if he can avoid the stresses of this process, I'd call it a win.

He could argue that the contract was entered before the intent to export was disclosed !

So, emails and documents get trumped by the date of the verbal contract to build the cues.

Kd

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk

 

[BmoreMoney]

Ernie will be a LOT lighter in the pocketbook...if he wants to fight it and clear his name. About $50-60K in lawyer's fees, plus untold lost hours when he could be making cues. The prosecutors will bury him in discovery demands...and when he's done giving them everything they asked for, they'll ask for it again...and again...and again.

The only cheap way (<$30K) out of this is to reach a settlement in which he confesses to doing something he didn't do, promise to never do it again and probably turn all his ivory inventory over to the feds.

It's NOT about justice or laws. It's about publicity.

Couple things, as to the discovery that applies to the prosecution - defense don't have to turn over sheet , short of a specific court order. Second, it has already been said the Earnie himself said he liquidated his entire stock of ivory PRIOR to the ban date.

 

[PDX]

I guess I'm the only one who feels that Ernie is/was well aware if the laws. Odds are he was fully aware of the possibility that this customer would take the cues out of country. He is a big name and is known for cues with a fair amount of ivory. The cost of this may put him into an early retirement, or he will work until he dies to recoup his losses.

Obvious the government is not screwing around and all cues makers, flippers and collectors need to take notice. If you invested heavily in cues with ivory, it looks as though you made a bad investment choice as the bam will likely follow to other states.

Ernie ****ed up and will pay dearly for it.

 

[alstl]

Not if you're a prosecutor who's Performance Review is in three months.

I suspect it has more to do with the space cadet politicians running California than a performance review. It reminds me of a scene in Catch 22 where an AWOL soldier throws a hooker out of a window and the MP's walk right past the dead hooker to arrest the guy for being AWOL.

Violent crime is spiking, gangs run free in major cities and they are worried about a 70 year old man's pool cues.

 

[GaryB]

I was told that materials and Ernie's computer were confiscated at the time of the Fed's visit.

What incriminating e-mails that were on the computer are not trumped by an undocumented verbal agreement.

We are all dealing in supposition and I doubt any of us have all of the real facts. I'm sad that this has happened but I am willing to wait for all of the facts before coming up with an opinion on Ernie's situation.