Ginacue popped over ivory, hopefully much or all fake.

[Bavafongoul]

The chief biologist at CA Fish & Wildlife explained to me that the only way to determine the age of ivory is by laboratory testing which requires taking a core sample of the ivory in question. I did not ask him what the specific testing was and I presumed carbon dating was an underlying process. It may not have been but I know he stated that a sample of the ivory is required. He also said the age of the ivory can be accurately determined and so I deferred to his CSI like expertise on this subject.,,,,and he was very confident too.

 

[mortuarymike-nv]

Pre ban Ivory act

Bava, are you saying that the Feds can date ivory through carbon testing to indicate the ivory was alive after 1980(I think that is the cutoff date)? I did not know carbon dating was that accurate based on tests I have read about concerning prehistoric bones of animals and bones of early man.

Re read this a few times.
Its worded tricky IMO.
http://mirappraisal.com/the-laws-behind-collecting-ivory-art-appraisal-artappraisers-paintings/

If the ivory was imported and BEFORE 1989: It is legal to own, sell and export these pieces of worked and raw ivory.
If the ivory was imported AFTER 1989 and is at a minimum of 100 years old (meaning it was not created after 1889): it is also legal to own, sell and export these items.
If the ivory is less than 100 years old and was imported AFTER 1989: these pieces of worked and raw ivory are illegal to own, sell and export.

 

[chefjeff]

"Hopefully much or all fake?" Ahahahaha

What irony!

The "necessary" government creates a fake "law" that itself harms humans who have harmed none before. So, the hope here is that, instead of an honest business transaction, the hope is that the dealer committed fraud (a violation of real law) instead of having to face the fake "law" against owning a thing. Genuine human concern about others' needs and wishes is flipped upside down by bad legislation, so much so that honest folks are hoping real law was broken so the fake law can't work! Who needs any of that????

This process can go nowhere positive, but can go only downhill for all involved including the elephants, much as the war on (some) drugs has taken so many down and so much.


Jeff Livingston

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

What irony!

The "necessary" government creates a fake "law" that itself harms humans who have harmed none before. So, the hope here is that, instead of an honest business transaction, the hope is that the dealer committed fraud (a violation of real law) instead of having to face the fake "law" against owning a thing. Genuine human concern about others' needs and wishes is flipped upside down by bad legislation, so much so that honest folks are hoping real law was broken so the fake law can't work! Who needs any of that????

This process can go nowhere positive, but can go only downhill for all involved including the elephants, much as the war on (some) drugs has taken so many down and so much.


Jeff Livingston

Or....just stop using ivory. Yes, it's just that simple.

Speeding is against the law.
Drugs are against the law.
Ivory cannot be exported from California.
The sun will rise.
The sun will fall.

 

[BmoreMoney]

Or....just stop using ivory. Yes, it's just that simple.

Speeding is against the law.
Drugs are against the law.
Ivory cannot be exported from California.
The sun will rise.
The sun will fall.

By no means is it " that simple ". As with everything else, not everyone will stop doing anything. Make it illegal and it just drives the price up while the demand is still there. What happens? It makes it that more enticing for those already in the game and for many more to join . Be realistic.

 

[BmoreMoney]

The chief biologist at CA Fish & Wildlife explained to me that the only way to determine the age of ivory is by laboratory testing which requires taking a core sample of the ivory in question. I did not ask him what the specific testing was and I presumed carbon dating was an underlying process. It may not have been but I know he stated that a sample of the ivory is required. He also said the age of the ivory can be accurately determined and so I deferred to his CSI like expertise on this subject.,,,,and he was very confident too.

Not just in relation to ivory , but " they " are always confident till they are routinely disproved and look like asses.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

By no means is it " that simple ". As with everything else, not everyone will stop doing anything. Make it illegal and it just drives the price up while the demand is still there. What happens? It makes it that more enticing for those already in the game and for many more to join . Be realistic.

I am realistic. It's the pile of you talking about the "what if" that are sniffing bong smoke. I stated what is FACT. The export of ivory from CA is currently illegal, correct? Is that reality?

Find a different white material to put in your cues. Plain and simple. Once the law is overturned, then the rhetoric can begin again. But as of now, it's illegal. Real simple.

 

[BmoreMoney]

I am realistic. It's the pile of you talking about the "what if" that are sniffing bong smoke. I stated what is FACT. The export of ivory from CA is currently illegal, correct? Is that reality?

Find a different white material to put in your cues. Plain and simple. Once the law is overturned, then the rhetoric can begin again. But as of now, it's illegal. Real simple.

What I am saying is if you or anyone else thinks this law will save even one elephant then you are sadly mistaken. It will only hurt good, us citizens, pad the coffers of whatever government agency but still will not save on elephant. I'm not saying the law is not in effect, I'm saying it won't do sheet in the big picture of things and will hurt good people in the process.

 

[BmoreMoney]

Put it this way Shawn, outlaw ivory just like pot, coke, dope and countless other things. Did outlawing ANY of them curtail the use? No, use has exploded while also the profits have exploded. And who gets those profits????? And who gets hurt in the process????

 

[alstl]

It is going to come down to this........The only way Ernie can be found innocent of violating the CA ivory ban (AB-96 effective 7/1/16), not the Federal regulation, is if Ginacue can legally substantiate the following:

1. The ivory he used in the cue was actually pre-ban ivory.
2. The cue was actually built and shipped prior to July 1, 2016.

Both of these conditions are inviolate requirements under the CA ban and Ernie & possibly his customer under certain circumstances, have a big legal problem if the aforementioned conditions were not satisfied. If Ernie even assisted the shipping of a cue with ivory that he built before the ban took effect, it has no bearing. If shipping involves the sale of a cue, or a cue repair and "any" ivory was used, the cue had to be shipped by June 30, 2016. Any cue completed or shipped thereafter is a violation of the law. I know this to be factually true and I communicated that to Bob Owen & Jerry Rauenzahn whom were building me custom cues scheduled for completion after July 1, 2016. This past March, I updated them about what I was told by CA Fish & Wildlife and both guys moved heaven & earth to get my cues finished by this past Memorial Day weekend. And there's a shitload of ivory in these cues so I was definitely concerned about the CA regulation. Thank goodness both of these cues now safely reside in my cue case.

California cue-makers that have anything in their shop had better get rid of everything involving ivory because the head of Enforcement at CA Fish & Wildlife could be sending agents to your shop tomorrow.....and they have the authority to inspect your premises and business records. I've been warning about this on the Forum since May after I started having communications with the Enforcement Division about obtaining CITES documentation for my cues for my own protection.

If you get caught, you may not wind up receiving the criminal imprisonment penalty allowed under the law but rest assured, you will absolutely lose you cue and receive a substantial fine and the maximum fine is not totally unimaginable for a buyer ($5k). The ivory ban is a serious impediment to cue-making and naturally for all other uses & applications as well. Do not order a cue from a CA cue-maker with ivory or else just be prepared for problems. You are far better off buying the cue in person from a individual seller. If you reside in CA, meet on the other side of the Nevada state line when you buy or sell the cue. I was told very specifically what I need to do to sell my EP cue to help finance the purchase of a Hercek cue that would also have ivory. As long as I am not in the state of California when that takes place, i.e., both the sale of my EP cue & purchase of a Hercek cue, I satisfy California Assembly Bill AB-96 and it is completely legal & permissible.


Matt B.



p.s. If Ernie has documentation that the ivory was purchased legally and can show inventory control records for usage, he will not have to do anything else.
But the burden of proof is on Ernie....he must show he abides by the law that banned ivory after 1978. He just cannot state the ivory is legal and he must
prove it because ivory was banned long ago. If he does not have adequate documentation, then US Fish & Wildlife is permitted to test sample the ivory and
carbon date it for age. They drill into the pool cue and take as many samples as they are inclined to take. Some of the ivory in a cue might be a combination of
legal pre-ban ivory and more recently poached ivory. The only way to know is to sample all of the ivory. AND......damage to the cue is not the responsibility of
CA Fish & Wildlife......they are not liable for any damages under the law even if the ivory turned out to be all legal, pre-ban ivory......I got that straight from my
local Assemblyman's legal staff. Otherwise, the cost of enforcement could become prohibitively expensive that undermines the intent and overall purpose of
the regulation. CA Fish & Wildlife is indemnified under the law for testing the ivory in any article if proper documentation evidencing its legality is not available.

A photo is worth a thousand words......the below is why I follow the ivory ban so closely.

I don't know about California but here in Missouri people are innocent until proven guilty. The government has to prove guilt, not vice versa. It seems to me the government will have to prove his ivory wasn't pre-ban and provide evidence of him using, purchasing or being in possession of banned ivory.

What am I missing?

 

[chefjeff]

Or....just stop using ivory. Yes, it's just that simple.

Speeding is against the law.
Drugs are against the law.
Ivory cannot be exported from California.
The sun will rise.
The sun will fall.

Acquiescing to crime does nothing to reduce it but only increases it, no matter the label.

So, no it is not that simple. In fact, the cure is the exact opposite of it.


Jeff Livingston

 

[Grantstew]

It's like being caught with an illegal substance, unless you can prove you are allowed to have that substance, you are going to be guilty. He has to prove that his ivory is legal, not vice versa.

By the way, pre-ban or not, it is illegal to ship ivory in or out of the USA.

 

[chefjeff]

What I am saying is if you or anyone else thinks this law will save even one elephant then you are sadly mistaken. It will only hurt good, us citizens, pad the coffers of whatever government agency but still will not save on elephant. I'm not saying the law is not in effect, I'm saying it won't do sheet in the big picture of things and will hurt good people in the process.

He is making the common mistake that legislation = law. It rarely does.

That's the trick of the legislators who want us all to OBEY and think they create goodness and order in society when nothing could be further from the truth.

The skools are the first proponents of this propaganda and we can see how effective it is right here in this thread.

But the truth wins out in the long run due to the dynamics of basic survival. Meanwhile, real individuals are being harmed by legislation that violates real law.


And the elephants die.

Jeff Livingston

 

[jasonlaus]

Why do some of you keep going on about him having Ivory in California? Can you not read? Do you just want to hear yourself talk out your @$$?
Just wondering
Jason

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

Put it this way Shawn, outlaw ivory just like pot, coke, dope and countless other things. Did outlawing ANY of them curtail the use? No, use has exploded while also the profits have exploded. And who gets those profits????? And who gets hurt in the process????

1st world problems. Whine at me about the price of insulin. Then I may listen. But for people to be up in arms because they can't have a pretty white material in their pool cues is completely idiotic, to me. Find something else.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

What I am saying is if you or anyone else thinks this law will save even one elephant then you are sadly mistaken. It will only hurt good, us citizens, pad the coffers of whatever government agency but still will not save on elephant. I'm not saying the law is not in effect, I'm saying it won't do sheet in the big picture of things and will hurt good people in the process.

We haven't been able to import ivory into Canada for nearly a decade now. There were no rallies. No rioting in the street. We just said "ok", and went about our business.

They aren't taking your guns away. They're saying ivory cannot be sent out of California. Deal with it. Find a stainless steel jointed cue, or phenolic jointed cue. With a non ivory ferrule. Yes, elephants will continue to die. Heck, I don't support the ivory trade. And elephants continue to die. I also don't own a gun. Yet people are being shot to death daily. What I can say is that I am doing my part in not supporting gun related deaths, and the slaughter of elephants. I wouldn't buy ivory if it was less expensive than phenolic.

So, you see, if the world thought like me, there would be no market for ivory. Therefore, Jumbo and his offspring would live on, because the dead elephant is worth nothing on the world market. But the people that will pay high dollar for ivory are DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the death of every poached elephant killed for ivory, because they are the consumers that have established the need and value of ivory. Without them, there would be no "going rate" for ivory.

Everyone that supports the "legal" ivory trade loses sight of the above concept. It's like price vs value. Some people have no clue why a Ferrari is worth $1M, when their Camry gets them from point A to point B. That's price vs value. Some people would pay $2M to have a Ferrari, and some wouldn't buy it if it was $100k. The fact that people will pay top dollar for legal ivory has created the black market for illegal ivory. So, the only way to actually eliminate the problem is to make ivory worthless. Won't happen. So, elephants will die. But anyone that thinks legally regulating the sale of ivory will have any sort of impact on saving elephants is delusional. Take a look at the facts. Death rates in elephants were at their highest pre 1989, when the trade of ivory was legal. So, legalizing ivory trading kills more elephants than making it illegal. I have yet to see anyone construct an effective argument against the actual statistics.

The elephant will be extinct in my lifetime. Which is sad. And anyone with ivory in their cues can feel the shame that they, in their 0.000000001% level of guilt, contributed to their demise. There are cuemakers that stopped using ivory a couple of years ago. They seem to be doing just fine. Evan stopped using it at Schon, and Segen. Dieckman never used it, due to bad karma. He did fine as well.

 

[BmoreMoney]

We haven't been able to import ivory into Canada for nearly a decade now. There were no rallies. No rioting in the street. We just said "ok", and went about our business.

They aren't taking your guns away. They're saying ivory cannot be sent out of California. Deal with it. Find a stainless steel jointed cue, or phenolic jointed cue. With a non ivory ferrule. Yes, elephants will continue to die. Heck, I don't support the ivory trade. And elephants continue to die. I also don't own a gun. Yet people are being shot to death daily. What I can say is that I am doing my part in not supporting gun related deaths, and the slaughter of elephants. I wouldn't buy ivory if it was less expensive than phenolic.

So, you see, if the world thought like me, there would be no market for ivory. Therefore, Jumbo and his offspring would live on, because the dead elephant is worth nothing on the world market. But the people that will pay high dollar for ivory are DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the death of every poached elephant killed for ivory, because they are the consumers that have established the need and value of ivory. Without them, there would be no "going rate" for ivory.

Everyone that supports the "legal" ivory trade loses sight of the above concept. It's like price vs value. Some people have no clue why a Ferrari is worth $1M, when their Camry gets them from point A to point B. That's price vs value. Some people would pay $2M to have a Ferrari, and some wouldn't buy it if it was $100k. The fact that people will pay top dollar for legal ivory has created the black market for illegal ivory. So, the only way to actually eliminate the problem is to make ivory worthless. Won't happen. So, elephants will die. But anyone that thinks legally regulating the sale of ivory will have any sort of impact on saving elephants is delusional. Take a look at the facts. Death rates in elephants were at their highest pre 1989, when the trade of ivory was legal. So, legalizing ivory trading kills more elephants than making it illegal. I have yet to see anyone construct an effective argument against the actual statistics.

The elephant will be extinct in my lifetime. Which is sad. And anyone with ivory in their cues can feel the shame that they, in their 0.000000001% level of guilt, contributed to their demise. There are cuemakers that stopped using ivory a couple of years ago. They seem to be doing just fine. Evan stopped using it at Schon, and Segen. Dieckman never used it, due to bad karma. He did fine as well.

I really have no dog in this fight, as I have stated I prefer and play with a wood to wood joint. Really do not care about ivory. So, since they outlawed ivory in your country - have they outlawed meth, coke, and pot? If so has that made everyone just stop using it ? What has happened to the price?. With any black market item you can make comparisons if you are true and not delusional.

 

[Shawn Armstrong]

I really have no dog in this fight, as I have stated I prefer and play with a wood to wood joint. Really do not care about ivory. So, since they outlawed ivory in your country - have they outlawed meth, coke, and pot? If so has that made everyone just stop using it ? What has happened to the price?. With any black market item you can make comparisons if you are true and not delusional.

The hilarious thing most of you come back with is drugs. Which cracks me up. Drugs have never been legal. There is ONLY a black market for cocaine or meth. Pot - there are places that have legalized it, and people are now going the legal route instead of buying pot from their "dealer", as they cannot be charged by the police for using medically prescribed weed. So, the price of coke or meth is ONLY set by the street. Now, let's say they legalize pot nationwide. The street price is $20 per baggie. The legal price becomes $100 per bag. What do you think will happen to the street price? Answer...it will go up. Criminals are smart that way.

That situation mirrors the ivory trade. Illegal ivory gets a boost from the "short supply" of legal ivory. So one feeds the other.

 

[jasonlaus]

The hilarious thing most of you come back with is drugs. Which cracks me up. Drugs have never been legal. There is ONLY a black market for cocaine or meth. Pot - there are places that have legalized it, and people are now going the legal route instead of buying pot from their "dealer", as they cannot be charged by the police for using medically prescribed weed. So, the price of coke or meth is ONLY set by the street. Now, let's say they legalize pot nationwide. The street price is $20 per baggie. The legal price becomes $100 per bag. What do you think will happen to the street price? Answer...it will go up. Criminals are smart that way.

That situation mirrors the ivory trade. Illegal ivory gets a boost from the "short supply" of legal ivory. So one feeds the other.

Nevermind.........waste of words

 

[BmoreMoney]

The hilarious thing most of you come back with is drugs. Which cracks me up. Drugs have never been legal. There is ONLY a black market for cocaine or meth. Pot - there are places that have legalized it, and people are now going the legal route instead of buying pot from their "dealer", as they cannot be charged by the police for using medically prescribed weed. So, the price of coke or meth is ONLY set by the street. Now, let's say they legalize pot nationwide. The street price is $20 per baggie. The legal price becomes $100 per bag. What do you think will happen to the street price? Answer...it will go up. Criminals are smart that way.

That situation mirrors the ivory trade. Illegal ivory gets a boost from the "short supply" of legal ivory. So one feeds the other.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about. At one point, all drugs WERE legal. Same as alcohol. It's well known what happened with alcohol correct? Everything else that is now illegal we can see the result correct??? If not, sorry for you brother . You or anyone else can outlaw whatever yards like, but the fact is it WILL CONTINUE . Just depends on the price. FACT.