Neil, I can't follow what you're trying to say (or perhaps I just can't follow the words you're trying to crowbar into my mouth
Lou Figueroa
Sure you do, Lou. You just have trouble admitting what you implied.:wink:
Want to improve your pool game next weekend?
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Sure you do, Lou. You just have trouble admitting what you implied.:wink:
No, Neil, you're wrong on that count.
I am dead serious -- I can't follow whatever point you're trying to make. If you would rephrase perhaps I might be able to understand and address.
Lou Figueroa
tough room
Giving you the benefit of the doubt here, then you maybe should re-word your post #131 to be more clear on what your thoughts really are.
But... but... my post seemed clear enough for you to take issue. I have nothing at the moment to add to it. And at least one guy understood it and thought it was good enough for greenies. Help me out here, Neil.
Lou Figueroa
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Yeah, one guy that is against instruction. Like I said, you said it, but now want to run from what you said. I'm not going to go tit for tat with you Lou. Had enough of that crap with English!
blah blah
Shoebat
I asked a pro once what a pro's main problem is. He said, "Focus. Focus is a life time struggle."
How many times have you seen a pro miss a dumb shot? It's very rare, true, but they're more likely to miss a dumb shot than a tough one. I don't think that sudden miss is a pure failure of stroke or pre shot routine or a twist or a pause- they just had a random thought and let themselves take that easy ball for granted. Not talking about slumps- that was a great baseball story.
But this is all a sideline from what really irritates me about this whole thread and about pool vendors in general: apparently now one has to be a "certified tester" to be able to say anything about a commercial service in the pool world, because you are "attacking his sacred livelihood" rather than "providing free market feedback." And you are pre-accused of not being able to play, not understanding the lesson, not having dedication, not having the right expectations... Without even knowing who you are or anything about you, they attack you personally.
If you do take a lesson and doubt it's value, definitely do not say anything because by then they have your real personal information- your name, phone number, email, home address, videos of you shooting... Now they're not guessing or making assumptions- they have You.
TL/DR: The defensive anger in here is so quick and harsh from just a subtle note of suspicion that any direct critique is likely to escalate drastically.
ALSO: I've been gone awhile. When I left, English was busy posting dirty pics in NPR- I never saw him talk about pool.
How many times have you seen a pro miss a dumb shot? It's very rare, true, but they're more likely to miss a dumb shot than a tough one. I don't think that sudden miss is a pure failure of stroke or pre shot routine or a twist or a pause- they just had a random thought and let themselves take that easy ball for granted. Not talking about slumps- that was a great baseball story.
But this is all a sideline from what really irritates me about this whole thread and about pool vendors in general: apparently now one has to be a "certified tester" to be able to say anything about a commercial service in the pool world, because you are "attacking his sacred livelihood" rather than "providing free market feedback." And you are pre-accused of not being able to play, not understanding the lesson, not having dedication, not having the right expectations... Without even knowing who you are or anything about you, they attack you personally.
If you do take a lesson and doubt it's value, definitely do not say anything because by then they have your real personal information- your name, phone number, email, home address, videos of you shooting... Now they're not guessing or making assumptions- they have You.
TL/DR: The defensive anger in here is so quick and harsh from just a subtle note of suspicion that any direct critique is likely to escalate drastically.
ALSO: I've been gone awhile. When I left, English was busy posting dirty pics in NPR- I never saw him talk about pool.
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I am not against instruction. I am against this kind of instruction. You know, dominant eyes, vision centers, straight strokes, center ball hits (absolutely useless - no top player on this planet hits the center of the cue ball).
I have two eyes and they work perfectly. Both of them. But I know how to use them. Cb-ob distance, you know ???? I think you don't.....
And I also know how to use my feet to aim for the correct opening of the pocket without changing anything else in my visual alignments. And how to adjust as cb-ob distance increases. You know the "undercut side" and the "overcut side" of the pocket......
If you teach these things, then I am not against you and your instruction.
It would not harm you to admit a mistake once in awhile. You know, instead of backpedaling, and making the excuse you were only joking.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandh
Neil, I have politely asked for further explanation.
I don't need your benefit of the doubt or anything else. Frankly, I think you must have misfired and know that with further discussion of the point you'd just dig yourself into a hole. If you disagree, please, for the last time, explain what you meant. Whatever, no skin off my schnauz.
Lou Figueroa
lol, no sense of humor.
Are you also going to bust me on a Digicue being an inanimate object incapable of having a cardiac arrest, lmao.
Lou Figueroa
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Here is your post:
I think there are minor imperfections at the highest levels.
It's why the best players make mistakes. It is also why, even among the elite, there are varying shades of talent. I also think that, at the highest level, some players have learned to live with their idiosyncrasies and play around them or perhaps even found some kind of magic because of them. If you look at the available footage, of say, Ralph Greenleaf, he had a huge swarp in his stroke. Or how about the pump handle stroke of Bustamante or the side arm of McCready.
Not only would all those guys probably laugh at the concept of SPF, any of those guy's stroke would probably send the Digicue thingamajig into cardiac arrest.
Lou Figueroa
You start out stating that the pros have minor imperfections in their fundamentals. Which I agree with. No one has perfect fundamentals all the time. Then you state that despite that fact, they have learned to play around them. This I also agree with.
They have repeatability and attention to detail that most don't have. Although I believe that it can be learned to a large degree with enough effort and desire.
You then state that they may even have found some magic because of those idiosyncrasies. I disagree with that, as there is no "magic".
Then you get into Greenleaf, Bustamente, and McCready. Your obvious point here, is that one doesn't need what you think most instructors teach as gospel to attain greatness. You even state that they would laugh at the concept of SPF. and send Digicue into cardiac arrest.
Granted, they wouldn't do to good with the digicue. As far as SPF, one has to wonder if you know what it means. It stands for Set, Pause, Finish. Now, I don't know about Greenleaf, but Busty and Keith surely would not laugh at the concept if it was explained to them because they also use it. I believe you are equating it just to a pendulum stroke. That is not the case.
What you are implying, is that since a very few have attained greatness despite their idiosyncrasies, that that is now proof that the rest of us don't need what the instructors teach.
I couldn't disagree more with that sentiment. I maintain that they became great despite their idiosyncrasies, not because of them. And for anyone else to think that they can do the same as only a handful of people have done, would be sheer foolishness and arrogance. By far, the vast majority of us do not have the natural ability to overcome those things we know to be detrimental to an accurate stroke, and therefore must seek guidance on how to achieve a repeatable stroke.
So, what is the point of your post, if not to essentially state that what most instructors teach is not would the top pros would ever do, and that they would laugh at the concepts taught? Which is the same as saying that the instructors don't know what they are doing, and are only after the $$$'s.
I see this thread has become another nature vs nurture thread. Ha ha.
Speaking of which, I just finished "The Sports Gene" while on a flight yesterday. It only took me 2 years because I waste my time reading AZB instead of books! ha ha. A great read.
Carry on, nurture and nature folk!
<==== Firmly in the nature side.
Speaking of which, I just finished "The Sports Gene" while on a flight yesterday. It only took me 2 years because I waste my time reading AZB instead of books! ha ha. A great read.
Carry on, nurture and nature folk!
<==== Firmly in the nature side.
You do not know whether those great players found magic beyond what is achievable through a conventional stroke. You have absolutely no basis to make that claim.
Perhaps coming in at an angle (with a high deflection shaft with an ivory ferrule) gave Greenleaf swerve that enabled him do things you can’t do with a straight stroke. Maybe Bustamante can do things with an ascending or descending stroke that most pool players can't do (but most 3C players can) with a straight stroke. And maybe there is something to the McCready side arm, (also used by Hoppe, Greenleaf, and oh, Mosconi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ts7YqHRrjc) that you cannot do with a straight stoke. (He certainly was able to apply inside english far better than most.)
This what you guys always do: claim guys, including me (see Scott’s post #69) is using SPF (yes, I do know what it means, see my post #81). But I don’t :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRNPz_CEszE
I just googled Greenleaf, Bustamante, and Mccready. I didn't cherry pick, here are the first three videos that came up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqMUqyH1gY4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v8Nacj_DrM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG9zMKOrTc4
There is no noticeable pause for any of these guys (including me), but that doesn’t stop you from claiming, “Now, I don't know about Greenleaf, but Busty and Keith surely would not laugh at the concept if it was explained to them because they also use it.”
Bull shee-toe.
How you can claim any are SPF guys is beyond me — pure baloney.
In my post, I am clearly saying that *some* guys at very high levels, succeed despite being in violation of the principles espoused by some instructors but I am not saying that applies to “the rest of us.” Only that there is room for more than one school of thought and that folks who sign up for one flavor should know that that flavor — be it vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, pistachio, mocha, or whatever — are only getting one flavor which may or may not suit them best. And yes, *some pros* would laugh at what they're teaching.
Bottomline is: you have absolutely no way of knowing whether a player would be better without their idiosyncratic approach to the game. And that applies to the greats and the not so greats. Would Greenleaf, Bustamonte, or McCready have been as dominate with a straight, pendulum, pause at the back stroke? I don't know and neither do you. (But probably not.)
Go to the DCC and you will see all styles of stances, set ups, PSRs, head positions, grips, strokes, and bridges. Frankly, I don't think I've ever even seen a great player with a noticeable pause at their back stroke (OK, maybe Buddy Hall) but no doubt they are out there. There are many more players out there with lots of other styles and many of these guys play lights out. No pause needed.
Lou Figueroa
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Lou, if you can't see a pause there, you need to get your glasses. As far as the up strokes, whatever strokes, no offense, but maybe you need a little refresher on basic physics. You can think what ever you want to, but you can't go against physics. (and don't even try the stunt that CJ did when he stated that his stroke is more advanced than what physics is)
As far as only getting one flavor, that only shows that you really don't understand what instructors teach at all. How many times do Scott and others have to state that before it stops being an issue? Preferred does not equate to only.
edit- was going to say more, but really don't see the point. You have your mind made up on things you know little about, and have no real desire to learn what you knock. Have at it.
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My prescription is up to date and I can see fine.
IMO, instructors have popularized the classic pendulum stroke because it is the simplest and most logical approach, especially for beginners. BUT has anyone noticed that the real life, no-kidding, for the cash set up many pros use is far from classical?
Walk through any big time tournament room populated with top-flight players and you will see all kinds of approaches to playing the game at its highest level. At one time three of the greatest cueists in the world -- Hoppe, Greenleaf, and Mosconi -- used a stroke with varying degrees of side arm.
Nowadays, players get low on the cue, some are high, some pronate their wrists, some pump, some are at the back of the cue, others play with a shorter grip, some have the cue centered, others under their left eye, some the right, others prefer an open hand bridge, others the tripod, and so it goes.
My point being that "different" is not so bad.
Lou Figueroa
Good points.
Maybe instead of focusing on differences, we should pay more attention to similarities.
What some things that all or most strong players do ?
Lou, and I mean no disrespect by this, but you are only showcasing the fact that you really have no idea what instructors really teach or why they teach what they do.
Lou, what about Efren Reyes, Fransisco Bustamante, Keith McCready, Rodolfo Luat ???
I suppose it depends on the game you're playing. You have to admit, however, that nobody rises to the top flight of snooker with a chicken wing and Bustamante backswing. American pool players don't get very far in Chinese 8-ball.
My experience is that there is that there are a few core fundamentals that you cannot skimp on if you want to reach the very apex of accuracy and close-in speed control, and to be honest, these really are snooker practices. However, for most American pool formats, especially rotation games, you can vary the style immensely and still be more than accurate enough even for 4.5" pockets and may even benefit from a less technical form as it can free up your stroke to put a bit more power into the ball if you're going to get fancy with multiple-rail force follow and very big draws.
If you want to see something interesting watch SVB playing Chinese 8-ball in 2014 (especially the one against Gareth Potts) and compare to 2016. SVB actually switched up his stroke for the 2014 tournament, he was not resting the tip on the table during his warmup strokes,he shortened his bridge and stroke considerably, he looked almost like he was copying Potts' stroke. And for someone who usually puts a big stroke on, I can certainly see the need to shorten up the stroke dramatically given the tightness of the pockets, heated slate, steel-framed cushions, and double-shaved cloth.. those tables play FAST. To my eye even though SVB got his ass beat badly, he was controlling the CB in tight spaces better than I'd ever seen him play, he looked like much more disciplined player. Halfway through day 2 of 2014 when he started losing that match, he went back to his usual longer windup stroke and although he got more comfortable with the shotmaking, he started blowing position really badly.