Legends - Yesterday vs Today

[mikemosconi]

No one is doubting that Mosconi was the greatest 14.1 player of all time - I just do not believe that any player from any era can run 100 balls" at will" on 4 and one half inch pro cut Diamond pockets - he may still be the best 14.1 player if he were 30 years old today- but I do not think that you would see a 526 ball run from him on a 9 foot pro cut 4 1/2 inch Diamond table-- pocket size and pocket cut/ shelf dimensions are a great equalizer between great pattern play/14.1 knowledge and pure shot making ability. I just feel that too many rattles in the pocket would occur on modern equipment that would upset the rhythm play in 14.1 of someone like Mosconi.

 

[pdcue]

No one is doubting that Mosconi was the greatest 14.1 player of all time - I just do not believe that any player from any era can run 100 balls" at will" on 4 and one half inch pro cut Diamond pockets - he may still be the best 14.1 player if he were 30 years old today- but I do not think that you would see a 526 ball run from him on a 9 foot pro cut 4 1/2 inch Diamond table-- pocket size and pocket cut/ shelf dimensions are a great equalizer between great pattern play/14.1 knowledge and pure shot making ability. I just feel that too many rattles in the pocket would occur on modern equipment that would upset the rhythm play in 14.1 of someone like Mosconi.

Well, you wouldn't think that if you had ever seen Willie run 100 - even a decade or more
past his prime.

Dale

 

[measureman]

Well, you wouldn't think that if you had ever seen Willie run 100 - even a decade or more
past his prime.

Dale

I saw it in the '60s,not prime Willie but close.
Nobody ran patterns as pretty as him
If you watch videos of Caras and Crane and then watch Willie he was on another level.

 

[lfigueroa]

No one is doubting that Mosconi was the greatest 14.1 player of all time - I just do not believe that any player from any era can run 100 balls" at will" on 4 and one half inch pro cut Diamond pockets - he may still be the best 14.1 player if he were 30 years old today- but I do not think that you would see a 526 ball run from him on a 9 foot pro cut 4 1/2 inch Diamond table-- pocket size and pocket cut/ shelf dimensions are a great equalizer between great pattern play/14.1 knowledge and pure shot making ability. I just feel that too many rattles in the pocket would occur on modern equipment that would upset the rhythm play in 14.1 of someone like Mosconi.

One of the big things Mosconi had going for him was that he had supernatural control of the CB -- he was always shooting shots with just a few inches, to at worst 2 feet, between the CB and OB. The CB would just float a scosche there or a smidge there and he'd land perfect -- never a tough shot. He made running 100 look *so easy* you'd leave one of his shows absolutely convinced you yourself could do it. Good luck with that. He also was proficient on a 10' table and could play a sporty game of snooker. So basically, when a player is shooting nothing but hangers the 4.5" Diamond would't matter.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

One of the big things Mosconi had going for him was that he had supernatural control of the CB -- he was always shooting shots with just a few inches, to at worst 2 feet, between the CB and OB. The CB would just float a scosche there or a smidge there and he'd land perfect -- never a tough shot. He made running 100 look *so easy* you'd leave one of his shows absolutely convinced you yourself could do it. Good luck with that. He also was proficient on a 10' table and could play a sporty game of snooker. So basically, when a player is shooting nothing but hangers the 4.5" Diamond would't matter.

Lou Figueroa

One of the other "big things" Mosconi had going for him, whether you liked him or not, was that he had more character in his little finger than most of the so-called "top players" of today have in their whole bodies.

When you saw him playing Crane or any other top players from his era you did not have to wonder if they were "cutting up" the money or taking off the sideline. He wasn't dumping to snap off a casino like the 1991 COC or stealing a ball playing Bankpool to steal a win from John Morra.

Mosconi had faults like we all do but a lack of character was not among them.

Bert Gordon: I don't think there's a pool player alive shoots better pool than I saw you shoot the other night at Ames. You got talent.

Fast Eddie: So I got talent. So what beat me?

Bert Gordon: Character.


It always comes back around to character.


RBL

 

[Bavafongoul]

If all the greats would lose to today's players, how come no other player has ever broken the record high run set by Willie Mosconi & Joe Balsis on a 10' table even after 75 years.?
That's a whole bunch of pool players over the last 8 decades that haven't matched or broken that incredible feat........The greats are just that......Great......and for a darn good reason too.

 

[fastone371]

I think all things being equal or even playing on old equipment that todays player would have an advantage over players of yesteryear simply because of knowledge. Before the interweb days information was so much more difficult to come if you could even find it. Now you just go "google" it to answer any question you have, of course you may need to sift thru an encyclopedia of info to find a good answer but its there, I checked, the interweb even says so.

 

[SJDinPHX]

One of the other "big things" Mosconi had going for him, whether you liked him or not, was that he had more character in his little finger than most of the so-called "top players" of today have in their whole bodies.

When you saw him playing Crane or any other top players from his era you did not have to wonder if they were "cutting up" the money or taking off the sideline. He wasn't dumping to snap off a casino like the 1991 COC or stealing a ball playing Bankpool to steal a win from John Morra.

Mosconi had faults like we all do but a lack of character was not among them.

Bert Gordon: I don't think there's a pool player alive shoots better pool than I saw you shoot the other night at Ames. You got talent.

Fast Eddie: So I got talent. So what beat me?

Bert Gordon: Character.


It always comes back around to character.


RBL

As you know, I am not a straight pool 'enthusiast'! To me, it is the most boring game on a pool table. Thats one reason why its been AWOL for 60 yrs.! I don't know why you make such an issue of Mosconi's personal character traits. The large majority of top players, (from any era) are pretty dedicated and trustworthy individuals. There will always be a few 'bad apples' in every barrel, and I know how you love to dwell on them! :yeah:

I have never played Mosconi 14.1, but I have been around several of his exhibitions, where I watched him play, for about 5-10 minutes. (or until boredom set in).. In my prime, I loved to challenge him to a one pocket, or 9ball game, just to watch him squirm! Also, his trick shot routines, were usually no more impressive than Fat's were! Two misses and it was, "Heres another one you'll like"!

As for his personality, he didn't even have one! He was an arrogant, 'wet blanket' in that department. He could care less if he 'entertained' his audience, as long as the checks from Brunswick kept coming in! You and Lou, are the only two people I've ever seen, who were overly impressed with him, or his demeanor!

PS..Even this guy (Barton) was more entertaining than Willie!..

 

[ceebee]

I say that Mosconi, playing with better equipment, might have been even better. Back then the clay balls weren't even round. The cushions may have been better, but the T-Rails have been proven to be a problem. Mosconi also liked a different game... Straight Pool

Straight Pool is a hard game to run 50 balls, but a hot shot can run 5-6 9-Ball racks, while you watch. And it's quicker money.

 

[sigep1967]

Not that I am a great player nor have been around many great players but I do know that the game today to me is much easier than when I was a younger mainly due to the speed of the cloth. Doesn't take much stroke now to move the cue ball around not like on the slow cloth we used to play on and you better have a good stroke to get any follow at all.

 

[M.G.]

I stand by my assessment.
14.1 is easy, except the break shots, due to the fact that you'll only play 1/2 to 1/3 of the table for distances. The CB shall not move around that much, that's the tactic.

He was a great player, but not even close to the machine players we have today.
The long reds Snooker players do - not even the slightest chance.

And for the records, I know the old equipment. I had the not-joy to play on a very old unmodifyed Brunswick and it was the easiest table there was. Pockets like buckets, as one wrote, and as soon as a ball was only near the pocket it would fall in.
In contrast I play on a normal table where rattle will accur frequently when played with force and not exact. Also pockets are so deep that a ball in a pocket get difficult to shoot.

Get over it, it's normal. Other people come and will be better and different.

Cheers,
M

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

The large majority of top players, (from any era) are pretty dedicated and trustworthy individuals.Whatever you say Ducky There will always be a few 'good apples' in every barrel! Yep

As for his personality, he didn't even have one!

I did not say he had a personality, I said he had more character than most of todays top players.

Just giving you a reason to slip from your coma and then back into it again

RBL

 

[KMRUNOUT]

IF Willy Mosconi were born in 1970 with the same savant-like natural talent he had and grew up in the more modern pool world with the modern players and modern equipment he would have been ridiculously dominant in the modern game. Willy Mosconi at 30 years old or so in that circumstance would spot the world.

IF you take Willy Mosconi of old and time warp him into the modern era without the benefits of coming up through the modern game, playing on the modern equipment, and playing against the modern style of player he would have a far tougher time winning against a top tier pro. He would still be a threat from pure potting and shape play abilities but he would be at a huge disadvantage in the kicking, safety play, jump shots, ect... and other aspects of the game that have had some very huge changes since Mosconi's time. Think Steve Davis or Jimmy White in their occasional forays into 9-ball pool. They could compete on a close to even level with top tier 9-ball players in world championships, but their games clearly had gaps.

The sad thing is Mosconi was a professional pool player in the truest sense of the word, he played the game to make a living. In todays pool world Mosconi would probably be a lot like Mike Sigel, a ridiculously talented player who simply quits playing pro pool because there is not enough money in it.

What a great response. I agree 100%. The game has evolved since Mosconi's time. Assuming he skips over all that evolution and brings a 1950's sensibility to a 2000's style 9 ball game, I believe he would have a very tough time being competitive at the upper pro level.

To the OP: I think if you took Mosconi's game in his prime and put it against Efren's game in his prime, and they played on modern equipment, I think it isn't even remotely a contest in 9 ball (Efren would slaughter him), and is close in straight pool with Mosconi having a slight edge (maybe).

For the people that let nostalgia get the best of their judgement...ALL games evolve. The way the game is played and learned progresses. Just watch pro pool from the 90's even. Those guys run out great, but are constantly making hard shots because the modern position game wasn't there, and the kicking and safety play is WAY below what even short stops and good A players would do today. Its just a different body of knowledge.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Dan White]

I stand by my assessment.
14.1 is easy, except the break shots, due to the fact that you'll only play 1/2 to 1/3 of the table for distances. The CB shall not move around that much, that's the tactic.

He was a great player, but not even close to the machine players we have today.
The long reds Snooker players do - not even the slightest chance.

And for the records, I know the old equipment. I had the not-joy to play on a very old unmodifyed Brunswick and it was the easiest table there was. Pockets like buckets, as one wrote, and as soon as a ball was only near the pocket it would fall in.
In contrast I play on a normal table where rattle will accur frequently when played with force and not exact. Also pockets are so deep that a ball in a pocket get difficult to shoot.

Get over it, it's normal. Other people come and will be better and different.

Cheers,
M

MG - if you never saw Mosconi play then you might consider listening to people who have. Mosconi didn't rattle any balls unless he wanted to for position needs, so who cares about the opening size? Yes, that can make a difference in strategy, but you make it sound like his error in pocketing would limit his ability to make high runs. He rarely had a shot your little sister couldn't make. It isn't about how well you pocket difficult shots on tight pockets. It's about how well you think through the rack and how good you are with cue ball control. Mosconi said that when he was a young guy touring with Greenleaf, he knew he could dominate Greenleaf since he had learned to put the cue ball within 1" of his intended spot, whereas Greenleaf was only accurate to within 2". (Pretty amazing given that Greenleaf used to give exhibitions where he would run rack after rack while putting a 4" square of paper on the table where he was going to put the cue ball for the next rack.)

 

[lfigueroa]

As you know, I am not a straight pool 'enthusiast'! To me, it is the most boring game on a pool table. Thats one reason why its been AWOL for 60 yrs.! I don't know why you make such an issue of Mosconi's personal character traits. The large majority of top players, (from any era) are pretty dedicated and trustworthy individuals. There will always be a few 'bad apples' in every barrel, and I know how you love to dwell on them! :yeah:

I have never played Mosconi 14.1, but I have been around several of his exhibitions, where I watched him play, for about 5-10 minutes. (or until boredom set in).. In my prime, I loved to challenge him to a one pocket, or 9ball game, just to watch him squirm! Also, his trick shot routines, were usually no more impressive than Fat's were! Two misses and it was, "Heres another one you'll like"!

As for his personality, he didn't even have one! He was an arrogant, 'wet blanket' in that department. He could care less if he 'entertained' his audience, as long as the checks from Brunswick kept coming in! You and Lou, are the only two people I've ever seen, who were overly impressed with him, or his demeanor!

PS..Even this guy (Barton) was more entertaining than Willie!..
View attachment 435890

The times I saw Mosconi he hit every trick shot, except a couple, on cue. The one time I saw Fats he made like one out of ten.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I stand by my assessment.
14.1 is easy, except the break shots, due to the fact that you'll only play 1/2 to 1/3 of the table for distances. The CB shall not move around that much, that's the tactic.

He was a great player, but not even close to the machine players we have today.
The long reds Snooker players do - not even the slightest chance.

And for the records, I know the old equipment. I had the not-joy to play on a very old unmodifyed Brunswick and it was the easiest table there was. Pockets like buckets, as one wrote, and as soon as a ball was only near the pocket it would fall in.
In contrast I play on a normal table where rattle will accur frequently when played with force and not exact. Also pockets are so deep that a ball in a pocket get difficult to shoot.

Get over it, it's normal. Other people come and will be better and different.

Cheers,
M

Ha, ha: "14.1 is easy."

Lou Figueroa
cheers

 

[lfigueroa]

What a great response. I agree 100%. The game has evolved since Mosconi's time. Assuming he skips over all that evolution and brings a 1950's sensibility to a 2000's style 9 ball game, I believe he would have a very tough time being competitive at the upper pro level.

To the OP: I think if you took Mosconi's game in his prime and put it against Efren's game in his prime, and they played on modern equipment, I think it isn't even remotely a contest in 9 ball (Efren would slaughter him), and is close in straight pool with Mosconi having a slight edge (maybe).

For the people that let nostalgia get the best of their judgement...ALL games evolve. The way the game is played and learned progresses. Just watch pro pool from the 90's even. Those guys run out great, but are constantly making hard shots because the modern position game wasn't there, and the kicking and safety play is WAY below what even short stops and good A players would do today. Its just a different body of knowledge.

KMRUNOUT

I don't believe that when it comes to Mosconi anyone is talking about rotation games but rather the 14.1 at the Open or "World" events or even the DCC 14.1 Challenge.

Lou Figueroa

 

[SJDinPHX]

I don't believe that when it comes to Mosconi anyone is talking about rotation games but rather the 14.1 at the Open or "World" events or even the DCC 14.1 Challenge.

Lou Figueroa

Lou, I can't believe that you, (or anyone else) once they became a fan of one pocket, would ever even want to sweat another game of straight pool, much less play it!..There is no comparison between the diversity and skill required to play them!..That is why 1P is now the dominant gambling game, among the top players, and 14.1 has become ancient history!..The recent rash of 'rule changes', have even succeeded in making 8,9, or 10 ball, much less exciting games than they used to be!

PS..Whenever I'm trying to sleep, and can't..I just pop a 14.1 video in the old laptop, and I nod off in 2 minutes! :boring2: :boring2: :boring2:

 

[Dan White]

The times I saw Mosconi he hit every trick shot, except a couple, on cue. The one time I saw Fats he made like one out of ten.

Lou Figueroa

My father saw about half a dozen of his trick shot exhibitions. He recalls that he always seemed to miss the same trick shot in the same way, and then he would try it again and make it. I don't know which shot it was, but he seemed to think it was intentional.

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou, I can't believe that you, (or anyone else) once they became a fan of one pocket, would ever even want to sweat another game of straight pool, much less play it!..There is no comparison between the diversity and skill required to play them!..That is why 1P is now the dominant gambling game, among the top players, and 14.1 has become ancient history!..The recent rash of 'rule changes', have even succeeded in making 8,9, or 10 ball, much less exciting games than they used to be!

PS..Whenever I'm trying to sleep, and can't..I just pop a 14.1 video in the old laptop, and I nod off in 2 minutes! :boring2: :boring2: :boring2:

Dick, you know how there are always a few guys talking about how boring 1pocket is? It's usually the guys who don't play it well or don't play it all.

Same with 14.1 ;-)

True, 1pocket is like a beautiful woman but 14.1 is a great cigar

"And a woman is only a woman, but a good Cigar is a Smoke."
Rudyard Kipling

Lou Figueroa