Ball overlaps with pictures

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:banghead: .. Mindset..

duckie - Next time just say... Don't confuse me with the facts.. My mind is already made up.

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Angles greater than 30* with 'dots'

To expand the number of shot angles provided with your method, it's possible to use the edge of the CB to a known 'dot' on the OB. The 'dot' distances you use can give > 30* angles this way. The angles are
39*, 48*, 61*, 90* using the edge of the CB instead of CCB at the 'dots'.

It's interesting to see how the number of angles increases in each eighth of the OB as you get past half ball. Using CCB, each eighth had a 7.5* increase. Using the edge of the CB, the first two eighths have
a 9* increase. It's still linear but the scale has compressed a bit. The third eighth has an increase of 13* for the same 'dot' distance, almost double the 7.5* using CCB. The last eighth has a whopping 29* of
'contact points' crammed inside.

If the quarters are divided into thirds of 3/16" each, you can get a 5* increase for each 'dot' out to a little past half ball. If you aim CCB at these points you'll get a sequence of 5*, 10*, 15*, 20*, 25*, and 30* for each
step. If you use the edge of the CB, you'll get 35*, 42*, 48*, 56*, 66* and 90*. This divides the OB into 'twelfths' rather than eights. The advantage is that the first 7 'dots' give a very linear step of 5*. The next 4 'dots'
are linear but with a little bigger 'bite'. If you divide the last twelfth in half you'll get an angle of 73*. The last part is for those razor thin shots we all love.
 
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theUBC said:
Ok Duckie since years I follow all what you are saying- and you are telling nothing else but Ghostball is the only way pool can be played- I have developped two aiming methods and I do know that this game can be played in several ways- may it be with using 90/90 CTE or with the SEE-System or with SAMBA for pool which I develloped. There may be even more ways...that I don't even know about... I will play you any game (you can choose 8/9/10 ball straight pool or bank pool) and I will announce any shot with my method for any amount of money ( just choose the amount of money and we will both transfer the money to an account that the winner will be able to take it from) just to finally proove you that there are other ways to play this game at a professional level and to finally stop you from negating any other method but ghost ball- Think about it - and pm me here on AZB or just... whatever...
I will even fly to the US on my own expenses if the money will be worth it


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Click to expand...

Like I give a shit....really......I don't give a shit. Does any of those methods you stated provide any info on how to adjust? What happens when changes in CB placement are needed to be made or the effect distance has on those changes?

The purpose of the drawings are not for use to aim. I made those in order to better understand what was happening. I needed a way to understand the effects of making adjustments.

Since I have never, ever, ever, ever visualized a ghostball, as this seems to be how the majority think to use ghostball, I don't use ghostball aiming. How can I be using ghostball aiming if I don't "see" a ghostball?

There is a difference in thinking between placing the CB somewhere and aiming. See I aim my pistols, I aim my rifles, I aim my shotgun. I can not say the same thing about any system in pool. In reality, there are no aiming systems in pool, just CB placement methods.

It appears that the lack reading comprehension runs great on this site. Also the inability to understand the topic being discussed. These were not posted in this thread to discredit anything, just to give some addition info about a shot using the ghostball principle .....it was YOU that has the issue.

Being able to think freely, to form your own ideas and opinions from life experiences seem to be lacking greatly also.

I'm a nuts and bolts kinda a guy......whole life. Some people just get in and drive the car.......system users, some people not only drive, but know what is going on under the hood.......real pool players.

Assuming I can't play pool is a big mistake.

Why do people continually forget about the player? It is the players application of whatever method they use and not the method used.

Would you say that someone just learning CTE or your methods will be able to apply the system as easily as a very extremely experienced user? Will the new user of CTE or your methods have the same results as a very extremely experienced user?

So, what happens if I beat you? You gonna throw out your methods and adopt mine because I just happen to be a better player? That, I just happen to be better at applying my methods than you are at apply your methods?

You gonna become a follower of Duckie?

And on the outside chance you beat me......all this mean is that I need to practice better, nothing more.

Why is this never considered.......how well a method is applied is the key, not the method being used.

In my little pool world......the opinion of keyboard warriors means very little.

You do realize all systems are based on the ghostball principle? What do your methods end up doing...........placing the CB at the ghostball position.

I just cut out all the extra steps.......I just put the CB where is needs to be without being burden with unnecessary details like what the cut angle is or where the make believe contact points/ lines are or any other subjective reference points a system requires a player to visualize in their mind.

You worry about your game and I'll worry about mine.
 
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Ralph Kramden said:
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:banghead: .. Mindset..

duckie - Next time just say... Don't confuse me with the facts.. My mind is already made up.

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Click to expand...

Not trying to change anybody's mind.....just putting some info out there.

Because of my life experinces, I've found people mostly think in generalities and not specfics. As I mentioned.......I'm a nut and bolt kinda guy......it get into the details, whereas most people, like yourself, just want to drive the car and could care less how it works.

And then there are the lurkers......those that read,but don't post.......figure they deserve to read different views points since most here just parrot whatever they read or are told.

Here's the thing about the spot on the table........distance doesn't matter. Like you mentioned earlier about distance and the OB appearing smaller the greater the distance from the CB it is. Using the spot on the table.......the OB doesn't matter, therefore the apparent size difference between OB and CB doesn't matter.
 
duckie said:
Like I give a shit....really......I don't give a shit. Does any of those methods you stated provide any info on how to adjust? What happens when changes in CB placement are needed to be made or the effect distance has on those changes?

The purpose of the drawings are not for use to aim. I made those in order to better understand what was happening. I needed a way to understand the effects of making adjustments.

Since I have never, ever, ever, ever visualized a ghostball, as this seems to be how the majority think to use ghostball, I don't use ghostball aiming. How can I be using ghostball aiming if I don't "see" a ghostball?

There is a difference in thinking between placing the CB somewhere and aiming. See I aim my pistols, I aim my rifles, I aim my shotgun. I can not say the same thing about any system in pool. In reality, there are no aiming systems in pool, just CB placement methods.

It appears that the lack reading comprehension runs great on this site. Also the inability to understand the topic being discussed. These were not posted in this thread to discredit anything, just to give some addition info about a shot using the ghostball principle .....it was YOU that has the issue.

Being able to think freely, to form your own ideas and opinions from life experiences seem to be lacking greatly also.

I'm a nuts and bolts kinda a guy......whole life. Some people just get in and drive the car.......system users, some people not only drive, but know what is going on under the hood.......real pool players.

Assuming I can't play pool is a big mistake.

Why do people continually forget about the player? It is the players application of whatever method they use and not the method used.

Would you say that someone just learning CTE or your methods will be able to apply the system as easily as a very extremely experienced user? Will the new user of CTE or your methods have the same results as a very extremely experienced user?

So, what happens if I beat you? You gonna throw out your methods and adopt mine because I just happen to be a better player? That, I just happen to be better at applying my methods than you are at apply your methods?

You gonna become a follower of Duckie?

And on the outside chance you beat me......all this mean is that I need to practice better, nothing more.

Why is this never considered.......how well a method is applied is the key, not the method being used.

In my little pool world......the opinion of keyboard warriors means very little.

You do realize all systems are based on the ghostball principle? What do your methods end up doing...........placing the CB at the ghostball position.

I just cut out all the extra steps.......I just put the CB where is needs to be without being burden with unnecessary details like what the cut angle is or where the make believe contact points/ lines are or any other subjective reference points a system requires a player to visualize in their mind.

You worry about your game and I'll worry about mine.
Click to expand...

duckie - Thanks for your opinion.... I think you are the keyboard warrior.

Please don't post on this thread again. You're officially on my ignore list.

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Distance between CB and OB does matter!Close distance generally will need a thinner hit and very long distance will generally need a thicker hit (when no side spin is used)
The used kind of stroke (stun or follow/draw) has effect on the outcome of the shot too! Acceleration during the stroke or deceleration too- and this is true no matter how the player aims- it is just the way it is- and yes it is called physics



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Vorpal Cue said:
To expand the number of shot angles provided with your method, it's possible to use the edge of the CB to a known 'dot' on the OB. The 'dot' distances you use can give > 30* angles this way. The angles are
39*, 48*, 61*, 90* using the edge of the CB instead of CCB at the 'dots'.

Using the edge of the CB 3:00 or 9:00 o'clock is good if your cue is perfectly parallel to that line from the edge that goes to the fractions on the OB and stroking through the center of the CB. Perfectly parallel isn't so easy and is a cause of missed shots.

It's interesting to see how the number of angles increases in each eighth of the OB as you get past half ball. Using CCB, each eighth had a 7.5* increase. Using the edge of the CB, the first two eighths have
a 9* increase. It's still linear but the scale has compressed a bit. The third eighth has an increase of 13* for the same 'dot' distance, almost double the 7.5* using CCB. The last eighth has a whopping 29* of
'contact points' crammed inside.

This is why shooting pool is challenging. The OB and CB are round and the slope angles increase as one makes contact at 0 degrees for a straight in shot to 90 degrees for a thin cut - it is not linear.

If the quarters are divided into thirds of 3/16" each, you can get a 5* increase for each 'dot' out to a little past half ball. If you aim CCB at these points you'll get a sequence of 5*, 10*, 15*, 20*, 25*, and 30* for each
step. If you use the edge of the CB, you'll get 35*, 42*, 48*, 56*, 66* and 90*. This divides the OB into 'twelfths' rather than eights. The advantage is that the first 7 'dots' give a very linear step of 5*. The next 4 'dots'
are linear but with a little bigger 'bite'. If you divide the last twelfth in half you'll get an angle of 73*. The last part is for those razor thin shots we all love.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing.
 
duckie said:
You do realize all systems are based on the ghostball principle? What do your methods end up doing...........placing the CB at the ghostball position.

I just cut out all the extra steps.......I just put the CB where is needs to be without being burden with unnecessary details like what the cut angle is or where the make believe contact points/ lines are or any other subjective reference points a system requires a player to visualize in their mind.

You worry about your game and I'll worry about mine.
Click to expand...

It's easy to see where you're coming from. However, telling a newbie pool player or a
player that lacks consistent pocketing skills to "just place the cue ball where it needs
to be" won't make him/her better. They know where it needs to be, the problem is
they don't know how to get it there. Most of us just feel how to do it, while others
spend a lifetime trying to a get feel for it.

That's where a good system can help this type of player develop some sort of feel.
After a while, he'll know exactly where the CB needs to be in order to make the shot,
and he'll know exactly how to place it there.

I messed around with the drawing a bit. (I hope you don't mind, Duckie) Anyway, it
shows the ghostball aim points (or CB placement if you prefer) and the face of ball
aim points. The ghostball aim points are located on the "Aiming Point Arc", and they
are much more difficult to focus on than aim points located on or very near the edge
of the OB. ( I know spheres have no edges, but this isn't a math course, it's pool.
Most people would understand "edge" of the ball versus outer most surface. We say
"side spin" for english, but in reality a sphere has no sides. Well, I guess it has two,
an INSIDE and an OUTSIDE.)

Ghostball aim points are out in no-mans land, ghostland, and require visualization.
Face of ball aim points are definite spots that can be seen with your eyes. It's much
easier to show/teach someone where to aim, rather than where to place the cue ball.
 

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BC21,
Nice diagram.
So if you can see the contact point on the OB, just double the distance to the out side from that point to the center of the OB.
PJ's diagram:

pat'sway.jpg

Because of geometry, it doesn't work when the CB and OB are too close together.

Have fun.
 
I really don't focus on the contact point between the balls. It's too much information. If a player stands behind the OB and locates the spot where the cue must hit it, he then must go back behind the CB and locate the same point from that perspective.

Simplify the process by focusing more on the visual overlapping of the balls. By focusing on what fraction of the CB needs to overlap the OB in order to make the shot, you have a definite aim point through the center of the CB all the way to the OB.

This works at any distance between the balls, except when they are close, 6 inches or so.
 
BC21 said:
I really don't focus on the contact point between the balls. It's too much information. If a player stands behind the OB and locates the spot where the cue must hit it, he then must go back behind the CB and locate the same point from that perspective.

Simplify the process by focusing more on the visual overlapping of the balls. By focusing on what fraction of the CB needs to overlap the OB in order to make the shot, you have a definite aim point through the center of the CB all the way to the OB.

This works at any distance between the balls, except when they are close, 6 inches or so.
Click to expand...

BC - Good reply. Both you and LAMas have good points. Double the distance works well on most short distance shots. Double the distance
from OB center.. past the contact point.. to different OB points on long shots requires guesswork. I do use DTD sometimes.

I really don't care for fractional overlap aiming, even though both balls are always overlapping. That takes some guesswork also as the ball
edges need to be clearly seen for that overlap. I do occasionally use overlaps though, but usually only if I'm aiming CP2CP.

Both work well but I prefer to aim CB center at known OB aim points for known angles. No guesswork and center CB is always used to aim.

One more advantage is when side spin is used. The CB deflection to one OB aim point can be judged. That's harder to do if you guess twice.

Play well, Carl

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If you are serious about using templates for aiming practice, make the arrow that Babe Cranfield has in his books.

It points to the spot on the table to roll the CB over.

The rack spot can be used also. Place a ball on the rack spot. Freeze a ball to it such that it is dead center pocket in one of the close corner pocket. Take the ball on the spot away.

Just roll the CB over the spot. You actually can use the top of the CB to align to the rack spot.

Using center ball stroke, just stroke toward the rack spot......as if the CB wasn't there.

Just move the CB to different cut angles and distances.
 
duckie said:
If you are serious about using templates for aiming practice, make the.... arrow.... that Babe Cranfield has in his books.

It points to the spot on the table to roll the CB over.

The rack spot can be used also. Place a ball on the rack spot. Freeze a ball to it such that it is dead center pocket in one of the close corner pocket. Take the ball on the spot away.

Just roll the CB over the spot. You actually can use the top of the CB to align to the rack spot.

Using center ball stroke, just stroke toward the rack spot......as if the CB wasn't there.

Just move the CB to different cut angles and distances.
Click to expand...

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Read Post # 31 top of page 3..... and Post # 45 bottom of page 3 for duckies response to Ekkes

Post #45 says... Since I have never, ever, ever, ever visualized a ghost ball... and then both his drawings show a Ghost Ball

Still on my ignore list

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Ralph Kramden said:
Both work well but I prefer to aim CB center at known OB aim points for known angles. No guesswork and center CB is always used to aim.

One more advantage is when side spin is used. The CB deflection to one OB aim point can be judged. That's harder to do if you guess twice.

Play well, Carl

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Click to expand...

Having always been a no-aiming-system player, I found it difficult to adapt to fractional ball aiming. But once I figured out how to know which fraction to use instead of estimate which to use, I was surprised at the accuracy. And it's very simple to focus the CB center on a known aim point. So I find myself doublechecking shots every now and then - comparing my instinct with the system. It's sad, after 30+ years, to discover that my instinct isn't as accurate as I thought it was.
 
duckie said:
If you are serious about using templates for aiming practice, make the arrow that Babe Cranfield has in his books.

It points to the spot on the table to roll the CB over.

The rack spot can be used also. Place a ball on the rack spot. Freeze a ball to it such that it is dead center pocket in one of the close corner pocket. Take the ball on the spot away.

Just roll the CB over the spot. You actually can use the top of the CB to align to the rack spot.

Using center ball stroke, just stroke toward the rack spot......as if the CB wasn't there.

Just move the CB to different cut angles and distances.
Click to expand...


The technique you use is not similar to ghost ball but is congruent to ghost ball to use the geometrical term. You're using the bottom of the ghost ball to aim at rather than the center. Why don't we just call it the Duckie Transparent Ghost Ball Method?
 
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Make your Cranfield arrow for Begginers.... www.billiards.colostate.edu/resources/Cranfield_arrow.pdf.... from dr daves website.


There's a book called BASIC POOL..The ultimate Begginers guide that shows an arrow to teach begginers how to aim.
It's basic 101 for someone NEW to the game, or if you have kids who want to learn. Not recommended for advanced play.

Read Post # 31... Regards, Carl

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Vorpal Cue said:
The point of the arrow occupies the same point on the table as the bottom point of the ghost ball. It's a simple variant of ghost ball aiming. See the point I'm making?
Click to expand...

Vorpal Cue - He knows.. Search for duckie and arrow..... 115 posts or more.
The same arrow aiming subject has been discussed on this forum for years.

From 2011... http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=2899355&post=1

He's just looking for fuel to keep the arrow fire burning... Regards, Carl


Note: That's why I keep saying to read Post # 31.. I knew this would happen.

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Vorpal Cue said:
To expand the number of shot angles provided with your method, it's possible to use the edge of the CB to a known 'dot' on the OB. The 'dot' distances you use can give > 30* angles this way. The angles are
39*, 48*, 61*, 90* using the edge of the CB instead of CCB at the 'dots'.

It's interesting to see how the number of angles increases in each eighth of the OB as you get past half ball. Using CCB, each eighth had a 7.5* increase. Using the edge of the CB, the first two eighths have
a 9* increase. It's still linear but the scale has compressed a bit. The third eighth has an increase of 13* for the same 'dot' distance, almost double the 7.5* using CCB. The last eighth has a whopping 29* of
'contact points' crammed inside.

If the quarters are divided into thirds of 3/16" each, you can get a 5* increase for each 'dot' out to a little past half ball. If you aim CCB at these points you'll get a sequence of 5*, 10*, 15*, 20*, 25*, and 30* for each
step. If you use the edge of the CB, you'll get 35*, 42*, 48*, 56*, 66* and 90*. This divides the OB into 'twelfths' rather than eights. The advantage is that the first 7 'dots' give a very linear step of 5*. The next 4 'dots'
are linear but with a little bigger 'bite'. If you divide the last twelfth in half you'll get an angle of 73*. The last part is for those razor thin shots we all love.
Click to expand...
.

Vorpal - Thanks for sharing your findings. It's interesting to see how the angles will increase by using the CB edge.

The 4 pictures in Post #1 are basic OB aim points for CCB and easy to remember. I just think.. 280.. 1/2.. and edge.

I'll say 280 (281 thousands) from OB center.. and 280 both sides of the OB edge. 38 degrees is .280 past OB edge.

When the angle in front of the OB is found, anyone aiming at those basic OB aim points will pick out definite angles.


Regards, Carl



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