All Finishes Pros and Cons

qbilder said:
That's probably true. My experience wasn't all that pleasant. There was a lot of time, research, trail & error before I settled in on something suitable for a cue finish. Most of the "glues" were disastrous, with a couple exceptions. The paper towel application is a disaster, too. I never could get it right, and it bothered me that the paper towel would smoke due to chemical reaction. There's just a whole lot that's so wrong with the typical CA finish. I had to take an approach completely free of traditional CA finish knowledge, or else I'd have gotten nowhere with it.




That's what you get for listening to that blowhard :rotflmao1: That guy takes a tiny crumb of info & next thing you know he's preaching an entire knowledge base around it. He has a well earned reputation for manipulating, twisting, playing folks against one another as if they are pawns in his personal game of chess. He does so with no regard to anybody but himself, for nothing but his own personal gain. I don't play those games. It drives me nuts when somebody says one thing to my face like we're friends, then immediately runs to say something else to people behind my back. That's the kind of crap my daughter dealt with in middle school, and it annoys the hell out of me to see grown ass men doing it. We're making cues, not living the "Game of Thrones".
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Boy, you described him to the tee.

Best finish I've ever seen is Ceramiclear. My late mentor sprayed it on his cues. I saw him accidentally drop his cue to his lathe after polishing it.
The finish did not even show one iota of ding or dent. It is very expensive and it appears they reformulated the California version yet again.
The stuff that SW uses now is illegal in California. Used to be huge here until it became illegal. It has earned it's rep in toughness. Some talk is some people still drive to Vegas to get them and spray it here.

Judd used to spray one tough clear coat as well. Saw Efren's cue all get beat up and dinged but the finish stuck.

Maybe someday, instead of UV or CA or urethane, there would be a finish kinda like thread lock. Absence of oxygen dries it hard.
We can only dream.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
Boy, you described him to the tea.

Best finish I've ever seen is Ceramiclear. My late mentor sprayed it on his cues. I saw him accidentally drop his cue to his lathe after polishing it.
The finish did not even show one iota of ding or dent. It is very expensive and it appears they reformulated the California version yet again.
The stuff that SW uses now is illegal in California. Used to be huge here until it became illegal. It has earned it's rep in toughness. Some talk is some people still drive to Vegas to get them and spray it here.

Judd used to spray one tough clear coat as well. Saw Efren's cue all get beat up and dinged but the finish stuck.

Maybe someday, instead of UV or CA or urethane, there would be a finish kinda like thread lock. Absence of oxygen dries it hard.
We can only dream.
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I need that stuff Elvis used in Clam Bake...
 
qbilder said:
I said that. Let me rephrase to correct myself. You'd have to be an idiot to die from CA. I can't imagine the amount of fumes you'd have to breathe in, and how badly it would hurt in order to cause significant damage or death. Minus that, I guess you'd have to breathe in the liquid and drown on it. The MSDS is pretty clear.
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I wasn't calling you on it. That's why I didn't name you. Just making it clear to make my point, that's all.

I know you get it. You clearly did your research. :thumbup:



.
 
Chopdoc said:
Amazing thread.

Health and safety issues are so important and you guys risk exposures to many things in the woods, the adhesives, the finishes, and more.

Good to see intelligent consideration given to these matters.

A lot of you guys have backgrounds that have taught you a lot about these matters already. I am more concerned about those less experienced readers that might be just getting into this craft.

I think it becomes especially important if your shop is in or attached to your home. At that point it isn't just about you, it's your family.

It was said that CA can't kill you. I assure you it can. It's just less likely to do so.

IMHO the relative safety or danger in handling these materials is directly a product of the understanding and diligence of the handler. Be smart, know your materials, and don't take chances.

It's easy to know to avoid something if it smells bad or irritates you in some way. But don't be cavalier. You can be exposed to something many times with no ill effects then get unlucky and have a dangerous reaction.

Anything that irritates your airways can kill you.

Many neurotoxins are cumulative. You likely won't know it's a problem until it's too late.

Many of these things you are exposed to, and related substances, are in fact used as chemical weapons.

It's the thing you can't smell or don't know that is the most dangerous.


I'll butt out again in a moment. I just wanted to add for the new guys, especially the ones without experience in industry that are most certainly reading this thread to learn from the experienced guys: If you don't have the MSDS sheets for the materials you are using or you haven't taken some time to understand them, you are an accident waiting to happen. There is not a single cue worth your life or ending up blind crippled or crazy.



I learned something from you guys years ago that I have taught many doctors. We are taught to ask what patients do for a living in order to asses occupational risks and exposures. I make sure that every doctor I train also asks every patient about hobbies and pastimes.


I'll butt out now. Thanks for the amazing thread. :thumbup:

.
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"I learned something from you guys years ago that I have taught many doctors. We are taught to ask what patients do for a living in order to asses occupational risks and exposures. I make sure that every doctor I train also asks every patient about hobbies and pastimes. "
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And that alone - IMHO - would more than justify this entire sub-forum.

Not that it needs any:)

Thanks again doc.

Dale
 
qbilder said:
To be fair, I should probably clarify that nothing about my finish is anything like typical CA finishes, except in that it's technically a CA product. I don't use the same stuff you see in your repairs, nor do I use the same method of application. The stuff you are seeing is from some guy who poured super glue on a paper towel & smeared it on a spinning cue a thousand times until it was gooped on enough to sand. A HUMV & a Prius are technically both automobiles, but polar opposites in type and application. Same thing with my finish vs. the super glue on paper towel method. Both are technically CA finishes, but that's where the similarities end.
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i know buckaroo
you and a few others have made it work for you
 
Originally Posted by qbilder View Post
That's probably true. My experience wasn't all that pleasant. There was a lot of time, research, trail & error before I settled in on something suitable for a cue finish. Most of the "glues" were disastrous, with a couple exceptions. The paper towel application is a disaster, too. I never could get it right, and it bothered me that the paper towel would smoke due to chemical reaction. There's just a whole lot that's so wrong with the typical CA finish. I had to take an approach completely free of traditional CA finish knowledge, or else I'd have gotten nowhere with it.
**************************************************************************************************************************************************************


I stopped doing CA finishes long time ago but the only time I saw the paper towel smoke was when I tried using regular paper towels. The blue shop towels did not do that. Never had a problem applying CA this way but not in my bedroom :). I found no yellowing, brittleness or anything else. I just refinished a 15 year old cue last week, lots of dents but no chipping or lifting of the finish no yellowing and no extra work to refinish.
I spray painted new vanity vans and school buses for a living for about six years thus I didn't want to spray auto clear.

BTW We just don't seem to get rid of that guy you described. I'm sure he's picking somebody else's brain or pocket as we speak.

Mario
 
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Mcues said:
Originally Posted by qbilder View Post
That's probably true. My experience wasn't all that pleasant. There was a lot of time, research, trail & error before I settled in on something suitable for a cue finish. Most of the "glues" were disastrous, with a couple exceptions. The paper towel application is a disaster, too. I never could get it right, and it bothered me that the paper towel would smoke due to chemical reaction. There's just a whole lot that's so wrong with the typical CA finish. I had to take an approach completely free of traditional CA finish knowledge, or else I'd have gotten nowhere with it.
**************************************************************************************************************************************************************
I stopped doing CA finishes long time ago but the only time I saw the paper towel smoke was when I tried using regular paper towels. The blue shop towels did not do that. Never had a problem applying CA this way but not in my bedroom :). I found no yellowing, brittleness or anything else. I just refinished a 15 year old cue last week, lots of dents but no chipping or lifting of the finish no yellowing and no extra work to refinish.
I spray painted new vanity vans and school buses for a living for about six years thus I didn't want to spray auto clear.

BTW We just don't seem to get rid of that guy you described. I'm sure he's picking somebody else's brain or pocket as we speak.

Mario
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Good Lord. He bugs you too? In his claim 6-7 years ago, he's been making cues for 10 years.

Smoked a paper? Hell, got more than a few stick to me index finger.
Burnt like hell.
Had to use thin CA to seal ferrules many times.
Thank God I have some that don't need sealing now. No pits.

Thin CA works on exotic woods for me before epoxy coat.
Just gotta sand them thin.

I tried water-based finish once. Did not have lasting power. Turned milky after a while.

Used French Polish for my early sneakies. I know Brunswick used to have them on their cues. Dun't really last long. Good for shaft sealer though. Or for female wood threads.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Thin CA works on exotic woods for me before epoxy coat.
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CA bonds very well to oils. It actually bonds better to oil than it does the wood itself. That's why it does such a good job sealing oily woods or sticks to your fingers so fast. I'm not sure why it reacts so positively to oil, but it's an undeniable trait that I take full advantage of.
 
qbilder said:
CA bonds very well to oils. It actually bonds better to oil than it does the wood itself. That's why it does such a good job sealing oily woods or sticks to your fingers so fast. I'm not sure why it reacts so positively to oil, but it's an undeniable trait that I take full advantage of.
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That's why law enforcement agencies use it to preserve fingerprints. It's original use was for surgery, why it welds skin so well.
 
qbilder said:
CA bonds very well to oils. It actually bonds better to oil than it does the wood itself. That's why it does such a good job sealing oily woods or sticks to your fingers so fast. I'm not sure why it reacts so positively to oil, but it's an undeniable trait that I take full advantage of.
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That makes a lot of sense.
Must be why it's so good in closing cuts and wounds. :D
I'm gonna be a boxing cut man now. :D
" Avatene? Coagulant ? Who needs that? Here ya go, super glue."
 
JoeyInCali said:
That makes a lot of sense.
Must be why it's so good in closing cuts and wounds. :D
I'm gonna be a boxing cut man now. :D
" Avatene? Coagulant ? Who needs that? Here ya go, super glue."
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Just ask my kids & wife how many cuts they have to to glue shut for me:speechless: I'm always cutting myself & always using super glue to fix them.
 
JoeyInCali said:
That makes a lot of sense.
Must be why it's so good in closing cuts and wounds. :D
I'm gonna be a boxing cut man now. :D
" Avatene? Coagulant ? Who needs that? Here ya go, super glue."
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You try to put super glue above a good boxers eye, and chances are he'll win by TKO. :D
j2
 
qbilder said:
Says a lot coming from you. I appreciate that :) Beat the sh!t out of it. It'll take the abuse and stay pretty. I'm not scared. But I can't take 100% credit for the finish. Years ago when I was in process of switching, Fred Agnir gave me a product and a basic "how to". It changed the way I approach finishes and I will always be grateful for his sharing. Had he not, I may have quit making cues because my mind was made up to never spray auto clear again.
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Well, Eric, I am deeply humbled. That was a long time ago, my friend. You obviously deserve 99.9% of the credit. As much as I work with adhesives, application processes and overall adhesive technology, in this case, I may have been just a catalyst for your development of your final solution.

Freddie <~~~ stuck on glue
 
cueman said:
Since we side tracked the Ivory Slabbing thread with finish discussion I thought we would visit this subject again. But lets do it differently from past threads.
Lets list the negatives and positive you see in each type.

Here is one:

Cue Cote Epoxy finish.

Positives:
1. I like the hardness it reaches as it dent resistant, but can dent without lifting.
2. It will shine up nice with some effort.
3. Only requires a slow speed lathe to put on with brush.
4. Bubbles are easily removed with a torch.
5. Fumes are not as bad or toxic as many other finishes.

Negatives:
1: It is a little harder to master than many other finishes
2. It is slow drying.
3. It ties your lathe up for at least 12 hours as it has to slow rotate for several hours to cure and lever out.
4. It is harder to buff back to a shine than many finishes.
5. Not suggested as a finish without carbide sanding mandrels s thickness is hard to control.
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Well, I would use a 6tpi blade and try to first sand one side of the tusk flat. Then-

LOL Sorry Chris, the Devil made me do it!
 
pdcue said:
Since you asked - a while back there was lots of talk about West 207/105. Anyone
have experience with that combo. PMs are fine if you prefer to limit things.

TIA
Dale
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When I started doing the epoxy finish I was already familiar with 207/105 I used it as a sealer/base coat for CA finish. I kept experimenting with a straight epoxy finish. It took a while before I found that most of the bubbles and other mixing problems had a lot to do with keeping everything clean and also dust particles. The 207 hardner has a shorter life span than the 105, it tends to turn from clear to amber. According to the manufacture it'll work just as good only not as clear. I drill a hole on top of both can covers and dispensed from there. It extended the life of the hardner and kept dust particles out. I always leave the mixing plastic cup with the remainder of the mix so I can check hardness and clarity, when I see any color change I open a new can.

First I just gave the cue a coat with a sponge brush and hung it up, it require too much sanding before the next coat. I started letting it turn on the lathe(225 rpm) for about 15 to 20 minutes. it helped a lot with a more even distribuition. The polishing and buffing was not giving me the results I wanted.

Normally I do one coat on three consecutive days, light sanding between coats, polish buff, done

Jim Lee was kind enough to share his finishing procedure and I invested in some expensive polishing compounds he recommended.

This is my current finish.
 
Mcues said:
When I started doing the epoxy finish I was already familiar with 207/105 I used it as a sealer/base coat for CA finish. I kept experimenting with a straight epoxy finish. It took a while before I found that most of the bubbles and other mixing problems had a lot to do with keeping everything clean and also dust particles. The 207 hardner has a shorter life span than the 105, it tends to turn from clear to amber. According to the manufacture it'll work just as good only not as clear. I drill a hole on top of both can covers and dispensed from there. It extended the life of the hardner and kept dust particles out. I always leave the mixing plastic cup with the remainder of the mix so I can check hardness and clarity, when I see any color change I open a new can.

First I just gave the cue a coat with a sponge brush and hung it up, it require too much sanding before the next coat. I started letting it turn on the lathe(225 rpm) for about 15 to 20 minutes. it helped a lot with a more even distribuition. The polishing and buffing was not giving me the results I wanted.

Normally I do one coat on three consecutive days, light sanding between coats, polish buff, done

Jim Lee was kind enough to share his finishing procedure and I invested in some expensive polishing compounds he recommended.

This is my current finish.
Click to expand...

Thanks a bunch.

Dale
 
Cornerman said:
Well, Eric, I am deeply humbled. That was a long time ago, my friend. You obviously deserve 99.9% of the credit. As much as I work with adhesives, application processes and overall adhesive technology, in this case, I may have been just a catalyst for your development of your final solution.

Freddie <~~~ stuck on glue
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You were the right guy, with the right stuff, at the right time. And I owe you a beer any & every time we meet :) Perhaps a cheeseburger, too!
 
Cornerman said:
Well, Eric, I am deeply humbled. That was a long time ago, my friend. You obviously deserve 99.9% of the credit. As much as I work with adhesives, application processes and overall adhesive technology, in this case, I may have been just a catalyst for your development of your final solution.

Freddie <~~~ stuck on glue
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Catalyst? Pun intended?
Which begs the question, does it implode if flown over 30,000 feet?
 
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