WPA Rules on 9 ball - PROBLEM

JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
According to the rules that I have read by the WPA, when no referee is present at the table, you may play "CUE BALL FOULS ONLY".

This leads to at least one problem.

If the shooter has an obstructing object ball in the path of the cue ball and decides to curve the cue ball around the object ball or masse around the object ball and does so without hitting the obstructing ball and makes contact with the intended object ball but then accidentally touches the obstructing ball with his cue (after curving the cue ball around the obstructing ball); there is no foul.

I couldn't find a rule that says this would be a foul.

Any comments?

Tournament Play comments only, please.

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
According to the rules that I have read by the WPA, when no referee is present at the table, you may play "CUE BALL FOULS ONLY".

This leads to at least one problem.

If the shooter has an obstructing object ball in the path of the cue ball and decides to curve the cue ball around the object ball or masse around the object ball and does so without hitting the obstructing ball and makes contact with the intended object ball but then accidentally touches the obstructing ball with his cue (after curving the cue ball around the obstructing ball); there is no foul.

I couldn't find a rule that says this would be a foul.

Any comments?

Tournament Play comments only, please.

JoeyA
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I don't know why you feel this should be a foul
 
Usually "cue ball fouls only" rules would consider it a foul if it affects the outcome of the shot. So I would think that if the cue ball has already clearly made it around the object ball, and then the object ball is accidentally touched, it wouldn't be a foul. But if it happens on the stroke, so that the object ball is touched before or while the cue ball is curving around it, it would be a foul.
 
mikepage said:
I don't know why you feel this should be a foul
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Mainly because there is an obstructing ball and a player should have control of his equipment and body. Giving permission to a player to move an obstructing ball without penalty affects the shot. (The player may not be able to make the same shot without hitting the obstructing ball with his cue.)



JoeyA
 
BRussell said:
Usually "cue ball fouls only" rules would consider it a foul if it affects the outcome of the shot. So I would think that if the cue ball has already clearly made it around the object ball, and then the object ball is accidentally touched, it wouldn't be a foul. But if it happens on the stroke, so that the object ball is touched before or while the cue ball is curving around it, it would be a foul.
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Thanks, but who is to say when the touched object ball occurred?

JoeyA
 
I don't know if this is the same exact rule set that you were reading from but on the WPA website under the category 9ball rules it says this:

6.6 Touched Ball

It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots.

It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot.

The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls.

If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul....
 
JoeyA said:
Mainly because there is an obstructing ball and a player should have control of his equipment and body. Giving permission to a player to move an obstructing ball without penalty affects the shot. (The player may not be able to make the same shot without hitting the obstructing ball with his cue.)



JoeyA
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That is a good point but tough to call in a cueball fouls only match.

I see your example, you can hit the cueball first, but the shot plays a lot easier if you are not worrying about contacting another ball afterwards by accident. No way to call that properly unless it's all balls foul, even though it is a clear advantage to using the rules over their intention.

I read a situation that someone posted a long time ago where a player in a cue ball foul tournament or league match actually placed his hand over a ball to use it as a base of a bridge. Meaning the ball was behind the cueball, so he just put his bridge on top of the ball instead of trying to jack up over it. Something like that goes well beyond "accidental contact" of course, but is a good example of loop holes one may find in cueball foul only matches.
 
Here is the WPA regulation. "Cue ball fouls only" is not in the rules. WPA tournaments normally have referees and most of the tournaments that don't are played "all fouls".

21. CUE BALL FOULS ONLY
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.​

I think it's better to play "all fouls" even in amateur play.
 
hang-the-9 said:
... I read a situation that someone posted a long time ago where a player in a cue ball foul tournament or league match actually placed his hand over a ball to use it as a base of a bridge. Meaning the ball was behind the cueball, so he just put his bridge on top of the ball instead of trying to jack up over it. Something like that goes well beyond "accidental contact" of course, but is a good example of loop holes one may find in cueball foul only matches.
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It is always unsportsmanlike conduct to intentionally touch a ball in play other than by taking a shot.
 
During a jump shot or masse shot...if the object ball moves due to follow thru of the cue....it is a foul..
 
I see that you get it. Yes the shot play a lot easier if you are not worried about contacting another ball afterwards by accident.

What is the penalty for holding onto an object ball and using it as a bridge to steady your hand?

JoeyA

hang-the-9 said:
That is a good point but tough to call in a cueball fouls only match.

I see your example, you can hit the cueball first, but the shot plays a lot easier if you are not worrying about contacting another ball afterwards by accident. No way to call that properly unless it's all balls foul, even though it is a clear advantage to using the rules over their intention.

I read a situation that someone posted a long time ago where a player in a cue ball foul tournament or league match actually placed his hand over a ball to use it as a base of a bridge. Meaning the ball was behind the cueball, so he just put his bridge on top of the ball instead of trying to jack up over it. Something like that goes well beyond "accidental contact" of course, but is a good example of loop holes one may find in cueball foul only matches.
Click to expand...
 
mmktierney said:
During a jump shot or masse shot...if the object ball moves due to follow thru of the cue....it is a foul..
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And if it is a foul on a masse shot, why isn't it on a swerve shot or any other shot for that matter, when there is an obstructing ball in the path of the cue ball?

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
Thanks, but who is to say when the touched object ball occurred?

JoeyA
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You did! Right there in your OP.

What the hell? Is this some kinda mind game?

Im not crazy.
Youre the one thats crazy
Your drivin me crazy
They put me in an institution
Said it was the only solition

You finish it, Joseph...?
 
JoeyA said:
I see that you get it. Yes the shot play a lot easier if you are not worried about contacting another ball afterwards by accident.

What is the penalty for holding onto an object ball and using it as a bridge to steady your hand?

JoeyA
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As noted above, it is unsportsmanlike conduct by the WSR. Also, "cue ball fouls only" does not apply to intentionally touching a ball. "Cue ball fouls only" is the wrong thing to call it. It should be more like, "one touched by accident is OK".

On of the weirdest variations I've played under was "any touch after the tip hits the ball is a foul but before tip contact is OK". So you have to get the timing of the foul right.
 
Bob Jewett said:
On of the weirdest variations I've played under was "any touch after the tip hits the ball is a foul but before tip contact is OK". So you have to get the timing of the foul right.
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That version is played in one room I play in in Toronto, although as used there it might be stated as "any touch during the shot and after the tip hits the ball is a foul but before the shot is OK". So if you touch a ball before the shot you acknowledge the touch/move and offer replacement (as with conventional CB fouls only), but if you touch a ball during your shot (including before your tip hits the CB and you can't stop yourself from hitting the CB) or on the follow through etc. it is a foul.

That rule often comes up when players are bridging over a ball (especially with the mechanical bridge). Also came up in a little tournament where I managed to catch a ball with the butt of my cue (ball was over the corner pocket) such that the ball was knocked into the pocket.
 
GideonF said:
... Also came up in a little tournament where I managed to catch a ball with the butt of my cue (ball was over the corner pocket) such that the ball was knocked into the pocket.
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I've known players who would do this when the opponent wasn't paying attention and then say, "Oh, I slopped in the five."
 
All ball fouls should be the only way to play Pool! Cue ball fouls only belongs in the backroom from where it originated.
 
JoeyA said:
That is some fine fellows you know Bob. :D

JoeyA
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Like "Mean Al". If he didn't care for one of the spectators watching his fleecing operation he would arrange to send an object ball their way, by accident. In those days an object ball onto the floor (or into someone's gut) was not a foul. His record was hitting the wall clock -- about seven feet off the floor, and on the wall -- with the cue ball.
 
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