Any angles around travelling with ivory?

HaroldWilson

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi,

My playing cue is the Black Boar in my aviator. Now I have a collection of cues but the Boar is the closest to my game and I don't like playing without it. Secondly, I travel a lot around Asian and from Australia to Europe and UK at least every 3 months.

Anyway I have always taken my Boar with me and took a few risks travelling with it after this global ivory ban which I don't disagree with in principle. However, now I don't take it for fear of getting it seized. In fact everyday I wish the cue had bone ivory or a legal inlay material as it wouldn't bother me either way as I use a ferrule-less shaft. I bought the cue way back when for it's play-ability not the ivory.

My cue was made in 1992 and I would like to think it was made with legal ivory at the time. As such, it isn't a recent slaughter by some poor local poachers appeasing the demand from China which is completely wrong.

So, what do I and many others do in this position. I am going to write to Tony at Black Boar and ask if he can put something into writing that I can show customs officials or to validate a CITES certificate.

Has anyone gone down this track with a custom cue-maker and the CITES people or would this just be too practical, reasonable, and justified which tends not to be a language understood very often these days? Or were the cue-makers buying ivory without the proper paperwork?
 
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Interesting question

I don't have the answer, but am interested in what you find out.

I have some older cues with ivory but the cue maker has passed away, so there
would be no way to get documentation.
 
Hi,

My playing cue is the Black Boar in my aviator. Now I have a collection of cues but the Boar is the closest to my game and I don't like playing without it. Secondly, I travel a lot around Asian and from Australia to Europe and UK at least every 3 months.

Anyway I have always taken my Boar with me and took a few risks travelling with it after this global ivory ban which I don't disagree with in principle. However, now I don't take it for fear of getting it seized. In fact everyday I wish the cue had bone ivory or a legal inlay material as it wouldn't bother me either way as I use a ferrule-less shaft. I bought the cue way back when for it's play-ability not the ivory.

My cue was made in 1992 and I would like to think it was made with legal ivory at the time. As such, it isn't a recent slaughter by some poor local poachers appeasing the demand from China which is completely wrong.

So, what do I and many others do in this position. I am going to write to Tony at Black Boar and ask if he can put something into writing that I can show customs officials or to validate a CITES certificate.

Has anyone gone down this track with a custom cue-maker and the CITES people or would this just be too practical, reasonable, and justified which tends not to be a language understood very often these days? Or were the cue-makers buying ivory without the proper paperwork?

I went to China with my playing cue 10 years ago. The agents in China didn't even know what a billiards cue was. I sure wouldn't do it now.

The problem would most likely come from US customs returning to the U.S. Customs agents are now briefed on items that contain ivory including pool cues and musical instruments. The CITES certificate would have had to have a certificate of origin stating the ivory was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976. Read the "de minimus" exemption. https://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html.

Do I think they are going to take away your personal pool cue because it has a small amount of ivory? Actually I don't, but it's always possible. It also sounds like a lot of work getting the paperwork together, even if you can and there will always be some local law risk crossing borders.

If it's just a matter of preferring the cue, maybe you can have a cue maker make a plain butt that matches your Black Boar weight and balance, then just travel with that and a BB shaft?
 
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:sorry:



For traveling only you can always wrap it with painter's tape or some kind of cover.

Just a guess but I really don't know.



.
 
Many nations are now strictly enforcing the ivory ban, especially China where it's being aggressively phased out entirely.
Even if you can prove ownership and completion date of the cue, then you still have to prove the "age" of the ivory if questioned.
Without a CITES certificate for your cue, which is impossible to obtain in the USA, then each and every time you travel...????

It is a crapshoot but if you get challenged, the way the system works is the burden of proof is on you to prove the age of the ivory,
If you can't do it to the satisfaction of the inspecting Authority, then it's probably going to result in lots of core sampling of your cue.
You have zero recourse for any damage to the cue and there's always the risk of confiscation by the inspecting Agency.
 
Many nations are now strictly enforcing the ivory ban, especially China where it's being aggressively phased out entirely.
Even if you can prove ownership and completion date of the cue, then you still have to prove the "age" of the ivory if questioned.
Without a CITES certificate for your cue, which is impossible to obtain in the USA, then each and every time you travel...????

It is a crapshoot but if you get challenged, the way the system works is the burden of proof is on you to prove the age of the ivory,
If you can't do it to the satisfaction of the inspecting Authority, then it's probably going to result in lots of core sampling of your cue.
You have zero recourse for any damage to the cue and there's always the risk of confiscation by the inspecting Agency.

Thank you for the information. Yes it is a tough one, I am going to pop Tony a line and see if he can provide some type of paperwork which may be relevant to obtaining a CITES here in Australia.

It is a shame the customs officials don't have the technology to accurately check the age of the ivory through an infrared light etc. Then the onus wouldn't be on individuals who have bought these items when they were perfectly legal.

Cheers
 
I went to China with my playing cue 10 years ago. The agents in China didn't even know what a billiards cue was. I sure wouldn't do it now.

The problem would most likely come from US customs returning to the U.S. Customs agents are now briefed on items that contain ivory including pool cues and musical instruments. The CITES certificate would have had to have a certificate of origin stating the ivory was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976. Read the "de minimus" exemption. https://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html.

Do I think they are going to take away your personal pool cue because it has a small amount of ivory? Actually I don't, but it's always possible. It also sounds like a lot of work getting the paperwork together, even if you can and there will always be some local law risk crossing borders.

If it's just a matter of preferring the cue, maybe you can have a cue maker make a plain butt that matches your Black Board weight and balance, then just travel with that and a BB shaft?

Yes I might have to get another butt made, shame though as this one has a lot of power unlike anything I have used and compliments the shafts perfectly. A different butt will change the hit and balance and at this stage I don't want to fork out for another custom. However, might not have a choice.
 
Yes I might have to get another butt made, shame though as this one has a lot of power unlike anything I have used and compliments the shafts perfectly. A different butt will change the hit and balance and at this stage I don't want to fork out for another custom. However, might not have a choice.

So you dont believe a butt matching the one you have, withoit ivory, would play identically? Tony might have some thoughts on that.

And as far as taking to ivory across borders? I think the risk/ reward ratio is so far from advisable, i wouldnt give it another thought. Leave the BB at home.

It is yours, keep it that way.
 
Hi,

My playing cue is the Black Boar in my aviator. Now I have a collection of cues but the Boar is the closest to my game and I don't like playing without it. Secondly, I travel a lot around Asian and from Australia to Europe and UK at least every 3 months.

Anyway I have always taken my Boar with me and took a few risks travelling with it after this global ivory ban which I don't disagree with in principle. However, now I don't take it for fear of getting it seized. In fact everyday I wish the cue had bone ivory or a legal inlay material as it wouldn't bother me either way as I use a ferrule-less shaft. I bought the cue way back when for it's play-ability not the ivory.

My cue was made in 1992 and I would like to think it was made with legal ivory at the time. As such, it isn't a recent slaughter by some poor local poachers appeasing the demand from China which is completely wrong.

So, what do I and many others do in this position. I am going to write to Tony at Black Boar and ask if he can put something into writing that I can show customs officials or to validate a CITES certificate.

Has anyone gone down this track with a custom cue-maker and the CITES people or would this just be too practical, reasonable, and justified which tends not to be a language understood very often these days? Or were the cue-makers buying ivory without the proper paperwork?
Call tony and have him build a new cue with out ivory for travel purposes.

Kd

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk
 
Is this issue with traveling with cues that have ivory in them only related to international travel and not travel within the U.S.?
 
So you dont believe a butt matching the one you have, withoit ivory, would play identically? Tony might have some thoughts on that.

And as far as taking to ivory across borders? I think the risk/ reward ratio is so far from advisable, i wouldnt give it another thought. Leave the BB at home.

It is yours, keep it that way.

I agree he could make one identical if not better, my thing is at this stage I don't have the option to fork out for another big cue. I think I might have to leave it at home :-(
 
Is this issue with traveling with cues that have ivory in them only related to international travel and not travel within the U.S.?

International travel is my issue as bags get screened and checked manually etc so the risk is increasing particularly with more woods and animal products being added to the list of banned items.
 
I agree he could make one identical if not better, my thing is at this stage I don't have the option to fork out for another big cue. I think I might have to leave it at home :-(

I hear you on that...no way in hell i would put that boar on a plane. It is yours and we gonna keep it that way.
 
Reading the de minimis exemption, 200 grams of ivory is about the size of a cue ball, ivory is not raw and can't account for 50% value of the item, and handcrafted in the US before July 6, 2016.

https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/questions-and-answers-african-elephant-4d-final-rule.pdf

https://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html

What is the de minimis exemption?

The de minimis exemption applies only to items made from African elephant ivory. The African elephant 4(d) rule provides an exemption from prohibitions on selling or offering for sale in interstate and foreign commerce for certain manufactured or handcrafted items that contain a small (de minimis) amount of African elephant ivory. To view examples of items that may meet de minimis criteria, click here.



To qualify for the de minimis exception, manufactured or handcrafted items must meet either (i) or (ii) and all of the criteria (iii) – (vii):

(i) If the item is located within the United States, the ivory was imported into the United States prior to January 18, 1990, or was imported into the United States under a Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES) pre-Convention certificate with no limitation on its commercial use;

(ii) If the item is located outside the United States, the ivory was removed from the wild prior to February 26, 1976;

(iii) The ivory is a fixed or integral component or components of a larger manufactured or handcrafted item and is not in its current form the primary source of the value of the item, that is, the ivory does not account for more than 50 % of the value of the item;

(iv) The ivory is not raw;

(v) The manufactured or handcrafted item is not made wholly or primarily of ivory, that is, the ivory component or components do not account for more than 50 % of the item by volume;

(vi) The total weight of the ivory component or components is less than 200 grams; and

(vii) The item was manufactured or handcrafted before July 6, 2016.
What types of ivory items are likely to qualify for the de minimis exemption?

Only African elephant ivory items may qualify for the de minimis exemption. This exemption is not available for Asian elephant ivory. When we proposed the 200-gram limit we had a particular suite of items in mind. The following types of items may qualify for the de minimis exception: many musical instruments (including many keyboard instruments, with ivory keys, most stringed instruments and bows with ivory parts or decorations, and many bagpipes, bassoons and other wind instruments with ivory trim); most knives and guns with ivory grips; and certain household and decorative items (including teapots with ivory insulators, measuring tools with ivory parts or trim, baskets with ivory trim, walking sticks and canes with ivory decorations, and many furniture pieces with ivory inlay, etc.). However, to qualify for the de minimis exception, all of the above criteria must be met (either (i) or (ii) and (iii)-(vii)). To view examples of items that may meet de minimis criteria, click here.
What types of ivory items are not likely to qualify for the de minimis exemption?

Asian elephant ivory items do not qualify for the de minimis exemption. This exemption is not available for Asian elephant ivory. Examples of African elephant ivory items that we do not expect would qualify for the de minimis exemption include chess sets with ivory chess pieces (both because we would not consider the pieces to be fixed or integral components of a larger manufactured item and because the ivory would likely be the primary source of value of the chess set), an ivory carving on a wooden base (both because it would likely be primarily made of ivory and the ivory would likely be the primary source of its value), and ivory earrings or a pendant with metal fittings (again both because they would likely be primarily made of ivory and the ivory would likely be the primary source of its value).
How do I demonstrate that my ivory item meets the criteria to qualify for the de minimis exemption?

To qualify for the de minimis exemption, an item must be made of African elephant ivory and must meet the criteria provided above. We consider an item to be made wholly or primarily of ivory if the ivory component or components account for more than 50 percent of the item by volume. Likewise, if more than 50 percent of the value of an item is attributed to the ivory component or components we consider the ivory to be the primary source of the value of that item. Value can be ascertained by comparing a similar item that does not contain ivory to one that does (for example, comparing the price of a basket with ivory trim/decoration to the price of a similar basket without ivory components). Though not required, a qualified appraisalor another method of documenting the value of the item and the relative value of the ivory component, including, information in catalogs, price lists, and other similar materials, can also be used. We will not require ivory components to be removed from an item to be weighed. To view examples of items that may meet de minimis criteria, click here.
What does 200 grams of ivory look like?
A piece of ivory that weighs 200 grams is slightly larger than a cue ball. The 200-gram limit is large enough to accommodate the white key veneers on an 88-key piano. Click here for photographs of ivory items of various weights. **NOTE: The items in these photographs would not qualify for the de minimis exception because they are made wholly of ivory. These photographs are only intended to illustrate the size of 200g of ivory. To qualify for the de minimis exception, an item would need to meet all of the criteria listed above. To view examples of items that may meet de minimis criteria, click here.
 
Can you cite when Custom Agents have core sampled?

https://www.fws.gov/international/travel-and-trade/ivory-ban-questions-and-answers.html

According to How do I demonstrate that my ivory item meets the criteria to qualify for the de minimis exemption, they're going to eyeball 200 gram of ivory (approximately larger than cue ball size)

Though not required, a qualified appraisal or another method of documenting the value of the item and the relative value of the ivory component, including, information in catalogs, price lists, and other similar materials, can also be used. We will not require ivory components to be removed from an item to be weighed. To view examples of items that may meet de minimis criteria, click here.

https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/african-elephant-ivory-de-minimis-examples.pdf

Many nations are now strictly enforcing the ivory ban, especially China where it's being aggressively phased out entirely.
Even if you can prove ownership and completion date of the cue, then you still have to prove the "age" of the ivory if questioned.
Without a CITES certificate for your cue, which is impossible to obtain in the USA, then each and every time you travel...????

It is a crapshoot but if you get challenged, the way the system works is the burden of proof is on you to prove the age of the ivory,
If you can't do it to the satisfaction of the inspecting Authority, then it's probably going to result in lots of core sampling of your cue.
You have zero recourse for any damage to the cue and there's always the risk of confiscation by the inspecting Agency.
 
All that legal talk is fine and dandy for the courtroom, but it isnt reall any short termbenefit to knowing it...not that it hurts to know it.

As a new area of enforcement, each incident is going to be low frequency/ hi risk. The enforcers dont have a lkt of experience with it and the ivory owner stands to lkse the item completely, while the enforcer and legal system figures it out.

Just not worth the risk, for a 10k$ cue.

"Stay out of court". That is a guiding principle in life and business. It os a good creedo.
 
A lot of us know the regs and the diminimus exception which is like searching for a Unicorn.
Without a CITES certiificate for every cue with any ivory, the diminimus does not even matter.
The diminimus is merely one of several conditions under the law but CITES is the only answer.
In the USA, no one can tell you how to obtain a CITES document for your cue(s) that's needed.
What good is knowing what to do to protect your cues when there's no path available to pursue.
 
When traveling, just disguise yourself as an elephant. Remember, these are the folks who, when tested, cannot find large handguns in briefcases. So an elephant should slip right on by.
 
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