What happened to the cue market lately?

[AJC]

If I'm a cue maker, I probably start setting tiers on my cues and just stay at several price points. Or at least try it and see if that model works. If you make high quality cues and the only thing that changes between them are the inlays/points/whatever, it seems like this would be a reasonable way to keep your prices from being artificially inflated or deflated through a 3rd party.

A.$500
B.$1000
C.$1500

Etc., etc. Seems like that would be the only way to stay afloat. Of course the random custom jobs would help also but how many of those can you do in a year and still put food on the table? I'm honestly asking because I don't know.

 

[Poolplaya9]

The biggest factor is that for the longest time people thought cue makers were alchemists with secret knowledge and secret skills and that cue making was this super difficult art that nobody could do unless somebody took you under their wing and trained you for a long time and filled you in on all the magic and secrets. Cues prices reflected this belief.

Now people realize that it really isn't hard, and just about anybody can buy a lathe and some books or videos and read some forums and be making quality cues before long with just a little work and experimentation.

Along those same lines, the market is flooded with quality cues from hundreds and hundreds of cue makers. Everybody and their brother makes a good cue these days. There is no shortage of quality cue makers, or of quality cues, as was the case at one time, and the prices now reflect this. The only real mystery is how some of these guys are still able to get the prices that they do.

 

[lfigueroa]

Maybe it's summer but the cue market seem to be dead. I was speaking with a couple of friends we are collectors and they are saying that the dealers and resellers are killing the market with higer prices for custom cues to a point that is not affordable for many. I agree somewhat about the prices but I think it has to do more with the fact that dealers and resellers only looks favourably toward cues that they are able to flip quickly for a profit and unfortunately that haved killed the market for the other really good cues.

It's no secret that Southwest custom cue is by far one of the most liquid cue in the market today and prices are definitely going higher for more desirable combination of woods, etc. Next to Southwest, you have Tim Scruggs and older JW seem to be moving at decent rate but with prices going higher...even their sales seem to have slowed. There are just so many other amazing playing cues out in the market that should be getting the same attention but are just not and I just can't seem to understand why. My only explaination that is that high end cues fall under Luxury item sales which have been in decline for years and so understandable the cue market is affected.

Not sure if there is a branding issue for 2nd Tier custom cues like Tascarella, Paul Mottey, Kikel, McDaniel, Ed Young, McWorter, Richard Harris, Sugar Tree, Cog, etc... or if it really a pricing issue where the buyers are so confused with rising prices that they are afraid to buy to be the one holding the cue and not be able to get what they paid. Is reseller value something that buyers are now looking at when buying higher end cues? I always tell my friend that if you want to invest in cues, you better off playing the stock market....but I've lost enough money there that I wish I had them in cues lol

When you talking about 3rd tier cues, it's even worse in this market

I think resellers and dealers need to be able to communicate values of cues better in the market. The heavily branded cue like Southwest is taking all the attention, leaving buyers with no confident in the other excellent cues. I'm starting to see dealer and reseller trying to branch out their focus on other higher end cues but not sure if it a little late into the game now. Knowing that ebony is highly valued in SW, I wonder if this premium wood also translate to other quality cue builders?

Feedback or solutions?

Br,
Duc.

I'm not a collector but I have had a few customs made by very respectable cue makers. And though I'm not really looking to buy, I always have an open mind looking at new listings. And frankly, I just bust out laughing at the prices some guys are asking for.

The best deals right now are for some of the new guys making very playable cues with very nice inlay work.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

The ivory rule/ban has killed the market. Custom cue makers are now having to look for new ways to create high-dollar cues. Ebony and ivory use to be top of the line for most makers with other materials being lower end. Not sure how this is going to play out. I can't imagine someone paying the same price for an ebony and elforyn cue that they did for one with ivory.

Collectors are also afraid to buy ivory cues over state lines because it is illegal and they don't won't to pay the same price for substitute materials that they did for ivory. Furthermore, the cuemakers don't want to get less money for building a product out of substitutes. This creates a perfect storm in the industry, a paradox left unresolved for the time being.

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In your dreams.

Looking at the FS forum, the ivory issue hasn't hurt one bit. If anything it has made those cues even more desirable. Cues with ivory are all over the place.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

The biggest factor is that for the longest time people thought cue makers were alchemists with secret knowledge and secret skills and that cue making was this super difficult art that nobody could do unless somebody took you under their wing and trained you for a long time and filled you in on all the magic and secrets. Cues prices reflected this belief.

Now people realize that it really isn't hard, and just about anybody can buy a lathe and some books or videos and read some forums and be making quality cues before long with just a little work and experimentation.

Along those same lines, the market is flooded with quality cues from hundreds and hundreds of cue makers. Everybody and their brother makes a good cue these days. There is no shortage of quality cue makers, or of quality cues, as was the case at one time, and the prices now reflect this. The only real mystery is how some of these guys are still able to get the prices that they do.

Certain cues will alway surpass the general market.

They are the gilt-edged, bonafide, no-kidding, not losing its value cue makers. Many cue makers aspire to this standing but the market speaks and decides and you will not be losing money any day soon on a Rambow, Balabuska, Szamboti, Gina, or SW.

Lou Figueroa
just to name a few

 

[jalapus logan]

The best deals right now are for some of the new guys making very playable cues with very nice inlay work.

Lou Figueroa

This is absolutely true. I just picked up my custom cue from MVP cues (Kelly Peterson) and I'm absolutely thrilled with the quality of workmanship, inlays, etc. No southwest for this player...ever!

 

[Kid Dynomite]

The market and consumer are illogical .

Ted Harris gets a sports illustrated write up from Dennis Orcollo unsolicited!

Meanwhile, his cues labor on the for sale market. Jay helfert tried to sell one on here and others.

If performance means so little, I don't understand the consumer.

Orcollo picked the Harris over numerous Southwest cues in the article!

I assure you that he does not have a 15 year wait list.

Kd

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

 

[lfigueroa]

The market and consumer are illogical .

Ted Harris gets a sports illustrated write up from Dennis Orcollo unsolicited!

Meanwhile, his cues labor on the for sale market. Jay helfert tried to sell one on here and others.

If performance means so little, I don't understand the consumer.

Orcollo picked the Harris over numerous Southwest cues in the article!

I assure you that he does not have a 15 year wait list.

Kd

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Well, that would be a PR issue.

In the right hands I suspect that kind of endorsement could be leveraged a bit.

Lou Figueroa

 

[slide13]

I think the volatility in the cue market is also self perpetuating. When thmarket is hot everybody thinks they can buy a cue and easily sell it for a minimal or zero loss. That makes it easier for people to buy cues, take some chances, and it results in a lot of activity.

When the market is slower and it seems like some cues sit and sit it makes people hesitant.

I know I personally settled into a player that I love and while I kick around the idea of buying another cue at some point I'm just not sure I'll use it and since I don't really want to collect cues I don't use I just keep shooting my Runde.

I also find some cues overpriced. My Runde was $1100 for an ebony and Birdseye cue with 4 points and veneers, ivory stitch rings, and micarta ferrules. I still feel like I got a killer cue for that price and comparitivley most others seem expensive for what you get in a lot of cases.

 

[Johnnybgood]

IMO...it's the collectors and brokers that are driving the prices up. When they do the price of what should be a player now becomes a collector. It's a silly market where the players are suffering. You make an attempt to purchase a $4000 cue and they don't budge even $200. So for my money....they can keep it and I hope someone doesn't fall for the bait but, I doubt that.


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[one stroke]

The ivory rule/ban has killed the market. Custom cue makers are now having to look for new ways to create high-dollar cues. Ebony and ivory use to be top of the line for most makers with other materials being lower end. Not sure how this is going to play out. I can't imagine someone paying the same price for an ebony and elforyn cue that they did for one with ivory.

Collectors are also afraid to buy ivory cues over state lines because it is illegal and they don't won't to pay the same price for substitute materials that they did for ivory. Furthermore, the cuemakers don't want to get less money for building a product out of substitutes. This creates a perfect storm in the industry, a paradox left unresolved for the time being.

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Really , the cue market has been falling for yrs long before the ivory bans kicked in and only a few makers have stopped using ivory all together,,
The high end cue market has shrunk because the potential buyers have shrunk , if you look at the average age of those buyers in the past they tend to be older gents as they fall out they are simply not being replaced by the next generation one for one ,,10 fall out you might get one new buyer to replace them ,, names simply don't mean a whole lot like it use too
You want to blame a single thing , I'd say it's the CNC that's killed the market more than anything one thing it's open up the market to just about anyone that can afford one with minimal amount of cue making experience,

Also let's be real just like the car business was taken over by Japan , China and Japan are taking over the cue sales in the same way first came cheaper cues like cars then comes better cars for more ,, Mezz - Miki now has what might be the best made cues custom or not the RnD that went into the Exceed cues is off the hook the build process is simply nothing short of amazing and hitting one is like driving a Ferrari,
I'd say we got some catching up to do before we lose it all

1

 

[ideologist]

Duc, it doesn't help the market when you list cues for $100,000 or try to sell $600 Palmers for $2,000...

Realistic understanding of cue values helps cues move. If you want your investments to gain in value, get more players into your pool hall. Jacking up prices doesn't magically get buyers.

 

[Type79]

?

I find this thread astounding considering the successes the OP has had in selling Palmer cues at prices way beyond market value.

 

[ideologist]

I find this thread astounding considering the successes the OP has had in selling Palmer cues at prices way beyond market value.

Obliviousness and greed are a swell combination

 

[PhilosopherKing]

Unfortunately, a person has to half pay attention to make money flipping cues these days.

If sw is dominating the market, flip makers who knock-off sw.

 

[justinb386]

I don't think the dealers are a problem, and the higher prices aren't a bad thing, if the dealers make money that doesn't hurt the secondary market.
These days the price has to be really low no matter what the original price is.
As soon as someone starts talking about cost directly from the cuemaker, you know the price will be too high.
For most cues the price in the secondary market has to be like 40 percent to start
There are exception, like 10 percent of the cues that hit the market, but overall the price has to start low and drop from there...if you really want to sell it.

For years people have been talking about low deflection, and we're starting to see lots of guys who can afford nice cues spending their money on a $1500 production cue like Mezz and Revo.
I'm talking about guys who used to buy Cognocenti or James White cues, like nice customs just to play with.
Now it's Revo, and a cool new case.
JMO

So, the high end customs are becoming less desirable due to the high end LD production cues, that get so much attention.

 

[justinb386]

The most i spent on a custom was $600 and didn't like how it played, so than i tried a Tiger sneaky and that's my player i had a leather wrap installed perfect for me got rid of the custom only have one cue and a breaker that's it no more.

Maybe try out a Lambros someday, and you might want to switch cues again. Or, maybe a Mike Durbin cue. There are so many customs out there that you might love much more then the Tiger sneaky you are currently using. I guess it is pointless to try out new cues though, if you really get used to 1 cue, and really love how it feels and hits. Hard to replace a cue you get really used to.

 

[justinb386]

I'm very confused - what is the actual problem you want to talk about?
Rising prices?

As for the rest, I'm very happy the custom "market" is dead.
Absolutely great production cues did kill it. Heck, a 190$ chinese Cuetec will get you through the Mosconi cup now.
There simply is no need for expensive or custom cues anymore.
If you are after looks you buy a Mezz or a Exceed and you're done. Upside is, Mezz sells extremely well on the 2nd market.

And the cuemakers themselved killed it with their behaviour and resistance to making actual LD shafts.

I won't shed a tear. For 10 cuemakers there's maybe 1/2 I could accept.

Cheers,
M

There are many (hopefully) that prefer the more classic looking design (like a nice classic 4 point, with veneers, set into a nice BEM forearm), and to have a great cue maker build it for them. If you can afford a custom, then why not have a good cue maker build you your dream cue? If you want to try out LD cues, then you can always put a Mezz or Predator (or OB, or whatever LD) shaft you want on it. I am sure there are many who still prefer to have a cue custom made, rather then order the highest end (and most popular) production cues on the market.

 

[justinb386]

first of all sellers or buyer cant kill a market that has a wide audience. just like realtors cant inflate house prices.

it is all supply and demand. simple as that.

as prices of anything rise, less people can afford or want to buy. that is how it works. no underlying thing can change that in an open market. and those that cannot afford to buy many of those are bitter about it. too bad. you dont drive a new car anyway.

Yeah, I imagine that if the dealers are not getting what they want out of the cues, then eventually they will lower their asking prices. They do not want to sit on their investments forever. Just out of curiosity, what is the average about of time that a dealer will sit on a high end cue (for lets say $3,000 for example)? I guess that depends on the cue, and how nice and desirable it is, but lets just say the average Tim Scruggs cue that is in the $3,000 price range. How long does it take for these higher end cues to get sold, before the dealer would consider reducing their price? I imagine that these high end cues do eventually sell. These dealers are not stupid. They know the demand of the cues, and the prices that they will eventually get sold for. Just need to wait out the buyers that want what they have to offer, and are willing to pay almost any price for it. I do not know. It just seems to me that most of these dealers are smart, and know what they are doing.

 

[justinb386]

The problem is the dead cue market (no one buying anymore like back in the old days). I partially agreed that rising prices may be a caused to this market condition but clearly demand and supply due to the economy is the main cause (luxury watches are almost just as bad...buyer market right now).

Just wanted to start a discussion to see if anyone had any ideas on how to restart this market again I know recently a lot of nice cues have been moved through raffle pretty consistently. I thought if sellers educate buyers on playability and quality instead of resell values that we can start to expand the market portfolio to include branding for other great cues in the market. If guys buying 500.00 to 1000.00 production cues understand that if you buy a 2K plus quality cues you'll have a better investment in your game and cue in the long run than maybe more higher end cues would be sold. if you didn't like a cue you paid 2500 got back close to what you paid..you're doing good. Just have find a cue that suit your playing style. Everyone is different but finding a high quality cue (one that rule them all will make the game that much more enjoyable IMO.

I was one of the first few to try the revo in demo stage and liked it but when I got it...it couldn't compared to any of my custom cues in term of feel and playbility IMHO. Not saying they are not good, I've a friend that solely play with his Revo and most pro I know are using them for breaking. Market for revo was hot when it was limited but now that the shaft is for sales...all the Revo cue are harder to move.

Yes, you make a good point. Maybe if more buyers understood the value of some of these high end cues (or maybe had a love for the good old classic designs, that you do not see on the new production cues of today), then they would be buying them. Maybe the issue is that the new generation of players do not care about the high end custom stuff, and all of the great old classic cues. The new generation of pool players (that can afford to pay any price for a cue) just want what the market is telling them is the best, which is probably either a Mezz, and Predator, or an OB. The old generation is dying, and the new generation just want the popular production stuff that is coming out. I do wonder how the custom cue makers are surviving (maybe just on a few custom orders a year, from loyal customers?). I do not know.