Illegal team takes 3rd in Gold at BCA Nationals

[cardiac kid]

With no disrespect intended, your original post did not make this clear at all. When everyone "misreads" your post such that they think the team was "well over" the 3000 limit because of a 500 point Fargo error as meaning they were close to 3000 as registered and then around 3500 at match time then you have to accept that maybe you didn't write it as clearly as you intended.

As an aside, I don't think 15 points over 3000 is "well over" the limit. I think people's reaction to your post might have been different if you made it clear that the team was only just over the limit, not way over. If the rules were not complied with, that is one thing, but I think the magnitude of the issue is important.

Gideon,

Although somewhat off topic, on behalf of East Ridge Billiards in Rochester, NY, we would like to invite you to participate in our Second Annual Joss Northeast Nine Ball Tour event to be held February 24th and 25th. 2018. Please mark your calendar. We're about three hours across the border.

Lyn

 

[book collector]

That's one of the things I hate about leagues.
No matter how much you cheat, somebody else cheats more, and beats you're unbeatable team.

 

[oneshotwiss]

I understand Marek's point. I know pool halls that used to have 50-60 players every Sunday for an open race to 7 & they switched to handicapped and everyone complained to the point it wasn't even fun & on top of that it lost a lot of interest in watching the finals. Then the real players stopped playing be used now they lose to a 2 that doesn't even care about the game and the 6's are robbing it now. So after a month or two they were getting 20-30 players, then 15, now they quit having them. Now I think they occasionally have Friday night your mantra but won't let anyone that can run 2 balls play. If you're an APA 3 you're banned literally. They get like 6 players.

If you handicapped or just ban/punish the good players it really hurts pool in the long run. Just like the little tournament above I was talking about the good players just quit coming in. Those players are the ones that come in 5 times a week, practice, spend money, eat, etc. The 3 that *****es and complains about handicaps don't care if they come in again ever. Those same type people probably won't spend a dollar eating or drinking or probably won't tip the waitress a dollar but pool halls around where I live cater to people like that it's amazing.

I do not disagree with you at all Justin. I wish there were more pros around my area that WOULD play in our local tournaments. I would welcome the opportunity to play with you guys more. Dennis Hatch and Mark Jarvis play on occasion. However, the BCA Nationals has been a handicapped tournament since as long as I can remember so it has it's own set of rules that people are supposed to follow. I am not complaining about playing stronger players because I always welcome that opportunity and realize that is what makes you a better player. I guess my whole point is...what is the purpose of having rules in place if they aren't followed? It wasn't my idea to come up with this Fargo system or place a 3000 limit on the team event

 

[BRussell]

Just to be clear, the BCA Nationals are not handicapped. People go into different divisions depending on their skill level.

 

[5aheadforpinks]

The real question is whether the captain or team members intentionally submitted the wrong fargo scores to make sure they entered the Gold division.

If they calculated a 15 point overage, and knew they would be forced to play Platinum; then submitted faulty paperwork on purpose, they should be banned from BCA permanently.

How do you prove this?

 

[iusedtoberich]

I can't believe I actually read all of this thread, ha ha.

Why has no one commented on what Griffin said? It seems his post paints a different picture.

No one on this thread knows what the facts are. Its all heresy. Griffen is probably the most reliable.

I'd bet a dollar to your doughnut that this is what really happened:

1) No one cheated from the team in question, by either blatantly lying about their Fargo, or letting an administrative error on their Fargorate slip through the cracks in order to get into the Gold division instead of Platinum division.

2) When they signed up for the tournament (months ago?), they were under the 3000 fargorate cap for the Gold division, and they were appropriately placed in it.

3) When the tournament started (months later?), they were a combined 3015. Within the buffer, and allowed.

4) There was never a 500 point administrative error. Someone pulled that out of their ass, or misunderstood.

5) Another thread was started complaining about "handicapped" league events.

That's my take on all of this

 

[FastManners]

One rule for one....

So our team signed up under 3000 (about 50 points under) and we then got verified on the website 6/12 in Gold and everyone booked their flights hotels etc.
On the last day of registration they bumped up two of our players so our total was about 3040 based on info they had apparently found online. We got moved up to platinum and even though they have a rule on the website stating that there is a 50 point buffer they refused to let us play gold. Almost an identical team, (actually a worse team than last year that barely cashed) and we were forced to play in platinum or try and find another player with two weeks to go and drop someone who had booked a ticket. Unsurprisingly we went two and out. Thanks BCA.
After eleven years of going every year and barely cashing in any event but still having to play in platinum singles and platinum team, I am done. The story about the team who finished 3rd only cements my feelings about how this tournament is now run.
I am sad about it as it has always been the highlight of my year, but I have slowly watched it become a shadow of its former self.
My team and players from my league will play the ACS instead, at least you have fun at that event.

 

[iusedtoberich]

So our team signed up under 3000 (about 50 points under) and we then got verified on the website 6/12 in Gold and everyone booked their flights hotels etc.
On the last day of registration they bumped up two of our players so our total was about 3040 based on info they had apparently found online. We got moved up to platinum and even though they have a rule on the website stating that there is a 50 point buffer they refused to let us play gold. Almost an identical team, (actually a worse team than last year that barely cashed) and we were forced to play in platinum or try and find another player with two weeks to go and drop someone who had booked a ticket. Unsurprisingly we went two and out. Thanks BCA.
After eleven years of going every year and barely cashing in any event but still having to play in platinum singles and platinum team, I am done. The story about the team who finished 3rd only cements my feelings about how this tournament is now run.
I am sad about it as it has always been the highlight of my year, but I have slowly watched it become a shadow of its former self.
My team and players from my league will play the ACS instead, at least you have fun at that event.

It seems a way to improve the situation then, is one of these two options:

1) LOCK in the fargorate of the team members at the moment they register, for the purpose of this tournament. That is probably more doable now, since there is much more data than last year.

---or---- and I personally like this one better....

2) Teams and/or individuals sign up, book flights, and arrive. They do NOT know which division they are playing in, upon sign up. Once there, the computer system looks at everyone's CURRENT fargorate, and assigns individuals/teams to an even distribution (or whatever distribution csi wants) at that moment.

 

[FastManners]

It seems a way to improve the situation then, is one of these two options:

1) LOCK in the fargorate of the team members at the moment they register, for the purpose of this tournament. That is probably more doable now, since there is much more data than last year.

---or---- and I personally like this one better....

2) Teams and/or individuals sign up, book flights, and arrive. They do NOT know which division they are playing in, upon sign up. Once there, the computer system looks at everyone's CURRENT fargorate, and assigns individuals/teams to an even distribution (or whatever distribution csi wants) at that moment.

I agree with either one of these solutions. Maybe the second option is a better one, because at least you don't get a worthless division with 21 teams in it, as the platinum mixed division was. That was actually our biggest issue. We signed up to play in a major tournament with hundreds of teams and ended up having to play in a tournament that we could have organized in our own room. And being totally outgunned, traveling across the country and spending thousands of dollars for. Sounds like a good deal, right? Ha ha

 

[BRussell]

---or---- and I personally like this one better....

2) Teams and/or individuals sign up, book flights, and arrive. They do NOT know which division they are playing in, upon sign up. Once there, the computer system looks at everyone's CURRENT fargorate, and assigns individuals/teams to an even distribution (or whatever distribution csi wants) at that moment.

Yes! They do this with singles, I wonder why not with teams. Then you just go with your buddies and not worry about getting a team just under x points.

 

[justinb386]

The real question is whether the captain or team members intentionally submitted the wrong fargo scores to make sure they entered the Gold division.

If they calculated a 15 point overage, and knew they would be forced to play Platinum; then submitted faulty paperwork on purpose, they should be banned from BCA permanently.

How do you prove this?

You are right, and I agree. I was thinking the same thing. How could they not have known? The Captain must have known (or whoever registered), I imagine.

 

[justinb386]

I can't believe I actually read all of this thread, ha ha.

Why has no one commented on what Griffin said? It seems his post paints a different picture.

No one on this thread knows what the facts are. Its all heresy. Griffen is probably the most reliable.

I'd bet a dollar to your doughnut that this is what really happened:

1) No one cheated from the team in question, by either blatantly lying about their Fargo, or letting an administrative error on their Fargorate slip through the cracks in order to get into the Gold division instead of Platinum division.

2) When they signed up for the tournament (months ago?), they were under the 3000 fargorate cap for the Gold division, and they were appropriately placed in it.

3) When the tournament started (months later?), they were a combined 3015. Within the buffer, and allowed.

4) There was never a 500 point administrative error. Someone pulled that out of their ass, or misunderstood.

5) Another thread was started complaining about "handicapped" league events.

That's my take on all of this

Why would someone make up, and lie about the 500 point error on one of the players rating, during registration? Would a team really lie about something like this to try to get another team in trouble? It does sound unbelievable though (a 500 point error, from 640 down to 140).

 

[Mowem down]

Yeah I know it's complety different but just trying to make a point. CSI/BCA pool league are a lot smarter than me but I know a lot of people from my area that didn't come this year because of Fargo. St. Louis used to have like 10 teams always that come sometimes more I think... I remember like around 80-100 people I knew from St. Louis came out every year to play or watch. This year I seen literally one guy I knew named Paul but I know he was on a team with two other guys I know but that was the only team.

My point is and I know that every sport has handicaps to a certain extent but pool seems to be way way obsessed with it.... Like in pool everyone even good players will say oh I haven't been playing or he plays better than me I should be a 6 instead of a 7.... In almost every other game/sport they all brag how much better than they really are... Every poker player I know thinkers Phil Ivey, they all win money they never lose... In Golf you can make a living by giving lessons, being a club pro, by gambling, probably make a good living playing tournaments if you're a low level pro or semi pro.... In pool especially where I live you're better off being an APA 5 under over.... You can match up gamble with way more people, get better games, play in a tournament every day of the week, have a chance to win $15K in Vegas at APA playing guys way under your speed...

I remember one year I was 15/16 got 2nd in a tournament paid like around $10,200 and Alex Pagulayan won the pro event and he got $8,000... Also I made a few thousand playing people that week... So I made more as an amateur than the pro that week... So why would anyone want to get better at pool or say they are better? You get punished in this game.... That needs to change to make pool better.

That was my whole reason for posting that. Not to do with CSI saying that team should or shouldn't be allowed to play.... Just stating my opinion on handicaps and how I think pool could be better.

There is some very good insight in that post... In almost all other games the way to the pros is through leagues, but pool leagues with all their participation have produced how many pros in the last 20 years... Just for the record I think TAP has a good handicap (the races are fair if the skills are correct) but the score sheets are REICULOUS..

 

[NINEBALLART]

We had a female player and a men's player for singles from our league bumped up at the last minute from Gold to Platinum....They changed our Men's player's table he was to play on at 10:30, 3 times...Then lastly told him, oh by the way, we moved you to Platinum Division...

When they registered they were Gold according to Fargo Rate...

 

[GideonF]

We had a female player and a men's player for singles from our league bumped up at the last minute from Gold to Platinum....They changed our Men's player's table he was to play on at 10:30, 3 times...Then lastly told him, oh by the way, we moved you to Platinum Division...



When they registered they were Gold according to Fargo Rate...

Okay, but why? If they got another 100 games data and the players clearly were much higher than previously thought, it is hard to fault them. That said, I get how this would be frustrating as things transition to Fargo.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[MOJOE]

It seems a way to improve the situation then, is one of these two options:

1) LOCK in the fargorate of the team members at the moment they register, for the purpose of this tournament. That is probably more doable now, since there is much more data than last year.

---or---- and I personally like this one better....

2) Teams and/or individuals sign up, book flights, and arrive. They do NOT know which division they are playing in, upon sign up. Once there, the computer system looks at everyone's CURRENT fargorate, and assigns individuals/teams to an even distribution (or whatever distribution csi wants) at that moment.[/QUOTE]

Option 2 is what happens for singles. For example, if I would have signed up for singles this year, I would not have know until all entries were in that I would have been in Platinum until very late. They put you in division by percentage. This may not be exact but for example, the top 25% of the players would have been platinum. I'd be amongst the lowest Fargo rated players as a 625. The cutoff ended up being 624 and above.

Having said that, I knew that was a risk and would have been fine playing as platinum although it would have been super stiff competition.

Teams were different as mentioned previously.

 

[Nostroke]

I understand Marek's point. I know pool halls that used to have 50-60 players every Sunday for an open race to 7 & they switched to handicapped and everyone complained to the point it wasn't even fun & on top of that it lost a lot of interest in watching the finals. Then the real players stopped playing be used now they lose to a 2 that doesn't even care about the game and the 6's are robbing it now. So after a month or two they were getting 20-30 players, then 15, now they quit having them. Now I think they occasionally have Friday night your mantra but won't let anyone that can run 2 balls play. If you're an APA 3 you're banned literally. They get like 6 players.

If you handicapped or just ban/punish the good players it really hurts pool in the long run. Just like the little tournament above I was talking about the good players just quit coming in. Those players are the ones that come in 5 times a week, practice, spend money, eat, etc. The 3 that *****es and complains about handicaps don't care if they come in again ever. Those same type people probably won't spend a dollar eating or drinking or probably won't tip the waitress a dollar but pool halls around where I live cater to people like that it's amazing.

Thinking about your self interests perhaps? Every top player complains about handicapped events. One exception is Frankie Hernandez-He used to make a living giving half the field the 5 out (doesnt count on the break) and also gambled and won giving the 3 out many times. Sorry you cant find free money in your area.

 

[mikepage]

I understand Marek's point. I know pool halls that used to have 50-60 players every Sunday for an open race to 7 & they switched to handicapped and everyone complained to the point it wasn't even fun & on top of that it lost a lot of interest in watching the finals. Then the real players stopped playing be used now they lose to a 2 that doesn't even care about the game and the 6's are robbing it now. So after a month or two they were getting 20-30 players, then 15, now they quit having them. Now I think they occasionally have Friday night your mantra but won't let anyone that can run 2 balls play. If you're an APA 3 you're banned literally. They get like 6 players.

I think we should be a little careful here about the order of events and what causes what. Pool rooms don't generally change the format of a Sunday tournament that gets 50-60 players.

More likely the tournament was already falling off and that is why they explored new formats

--maybe if we ban the top players people will start coming back
--maybe if we handicap it people will start coming back

And then when those things don't help, it is easy to view them as the cause of the problem rather than a too-little, too-late attempt to fix a problem that already existed.

If you handicapped or just ban/punish the good players it really hurts pool in the long run. [...]

I think there is room for both. We run two weekly tournaments. One is not handicapped --big-table 9-ball. The other is highly-handicapped 8-ball on the 7-foot tables. Justin would give me 5 games on the wire to 8! I have a chance of running out the set--about the same chance he has, by the way.

The 8-ball gets more players, but we've been doing both for years.

Look at the Omega Tour in Dallas. It is handicapped by FargoRate. Melinda has a stop this weekend that is full with 128 players. In fact all her stops are full months in advance.

Handicapping, when done right, and in conjunction with non-handicapped events, not instead of them, is not the death of pool. It just seems that way when it is added reluctantly --and often poorly--to attempt to right a sinking ship.

 

[cardiac kid]

Option 2 is what happens for singles. For example, if I would have signed up for singles this year, I would not have know until all entries were in that I would have been in Platinum until very late. They put you in division by percentage. This may not be exact but for example, the top 25% of the players would have been platinum. I'd be amongst the lowest Fargo rated players as a 625. The cutoff ended up being 624 and above.

Having said that, I knew that was a risk and would have been fine playing as platinum although it would have been super stiff competition.

Teams were different as mentioned previously.

As it turned out, the Senior singles cut off was around 580. That was 25% of the near two hundred and seventy entries. Top was Gil Hernandez at 720 (at the time). I was just below the mid-point at 643. Thought the cut off would have been 625 as well. Like you, I would have preferred to know which division I would have been entered in before I left Rochester for Vegas. Guess it's just not possible at this time.

In a moment of light headedness, I accidentally entered the regular singles. Thanks to the office staff at CSI, they were able to move me to the senior event a month or so before the tournament. For some reason, think the high entrant in the Open singles was at 730. Not sure if I'd have played Platinum or not. Only the top 15% moved up. Not sure how many total entries there were for the Open but it would have been close!

Anyway Mojoe, guess I'll be back again next year. Hadn't planned on going this year but fate intervened. Want another shot at that Ed Borrega guy!!!!

Lyn

 

[alstl]

It's been a long time since I played in a league and I doubt I have a Fargo rating. If I entered a tournament like this what would my rating be?