Turning Stone - rip off

[bradsh98]

It's a totally different situation. A hotel, for the most part you can book the day before. Same with a rental car. You don't have to book these things 9 months before... That's the difference.

I recently booked a non refundable flight through delta. My connecting flight through American didn't get me to my destination so I changed courses. I called Delta and they gave me a credit (minus a transfer fee) for a ticket at a later date.

If this tournament at least made some sort of an effort for someone asking months before the tournament starts, you'd think he would work with them. If I find out my best friend is getting married that day and only gave me 7 months notice, but I booked this tournament 9 months ahead... It's absolutely shady he won't at least try to work with someone.

I don't know where you get this "9 months" idea from... I don't recall any past Turning Stone event filling that early. Most generally, the event does not fill until a month or so before the event. Of course, there have been exceptions, but this is the norm.

I know that isn't the point that you are trying to make. The bigger issue is your suggestion that Mike is "double-dipping". In that regard, I somewhat agree with you, but only to a point.

If a player cannot make the event, I do feel that it is acceptable to offer that spot to a player that is on the waiting list. A full bracket is always better than having gaps, and it adds to the spectacle. However, there is concern over where the additional money goes..

Well, just like the no-refund policy, the payouts are also well known. The payouts do not change, regardless of the entry fees paid. So, where is the extra cash? Maybe Mike gives all of his volunteers a bonus.. Maybe he tips the casino staff.. Maybe he pockets it.. Does it really matter?

Would you feel better if he stood in the center of the floor and set fire to the additional money, just to show you that it isn't going in his pockets? Clearly, that is what you seem to be most concerned with.

 

[Koop]

No clue. Don't really care either. If I paid my entry and couldn't get it back, you better give me a forfeit and not fill the spot. Getting paid twice is shady af.

Disagree. Especially if it's advertised ahead of time. If it were me and I knew going in then I would expect it.

 

[BmoreMoney]

Has anyone here entered into a contract????

 

[trifectasss]

I don't know where you get this "9 months" idea from... I don't recall any past Turning Stone event filling that early. Most generally, the event does not fill until a month or so before the event. Of course, there have been exceptions, but this is the norm.

Ahhh, so with a 200.00 or 150.00 entry fee, you normally have until a month or so away to decide to sign up. This makes all the difference. Any breaks like refunds would push that day closer to the tournament itself. It has been said that the casino make deals with tournament sponsors. I'm sure the hotel if not owned by the casino, makes deals with the casino and/or sponsors for lower prices with trade off being the almost 100 percent guarantee they will sell out that weekend. Within the current parameters, it's also been said that they are still filling a few replacement spots on the weekend of the tournament.

I think it can be reasonably assumed that the spots filled the weekend of the tournament are filled mostly by locals because who in their right mind is going to make travel plans to be a standby in tournament? So, any change to ease the refund policy encourages more cancellations and in turn, more locals playing the tournament. Casinos and hotels would prefer to have the tourist not the local. It is fact that tourists spend more money in those businesses. Not only that but if you have a cutoff point before refund is denied, there will be another big round of cancellations and reservations that would take place at that time. Maybe the hotels that give the discount do not want that hassle. Therefore, when the hotels and casinos make the deal with the sponsors, they do so expecting that built in parameters are in place with the sponsor that keeps those added expected profits and minimizes the hassles.

 

[mikepage]

I can promise you, he's doing much better than breaking even on these events. The casino gives me VERY good money just to hold the event and draw people in. He's got the best deal in pool...[...]

Shhhh.... quiet please....

There are hundreds of casinos like Turning Stone...

If we are careful not to let this secret out, we can run dozens of these $25,000 added events a year and make a REAL killing...

 

[iusedtoberich]

Here are some additional points, the first one was probably already made in this thread....

- One point brought up is that Zuglan is double dipping, because there is a line of guys waiting to take the spot. Have you considered if he had a yes refund policy, and 30 players dropped out instead of 5, maybe there won't be a line of standby's that long?

-Another sub-topic being brought up is that Zuglan does well in this event, because of the casino sponsorship. Therefore, he shouldn't need to double dip to make ends meet. This brings up a tangent of mine, but its worth discussing (imo )

One main problem I see with tournaments, is that each one is a separate entity, from a business standpoint. So we have people in this thread saying he makes out on this event, because of the casino. BUT, what about the other 20 stops he has every year? What if a few of them are money losers? Zuglan's tour, from a business perspective, should be considered an all event encompassing business. Not a separate business for each stop.

Now, take that a step further. Promoters often say they get the added money for bigger events from the gate. Or you will hear them say they lost money on the event. I think the issue here, is because each event is separate from a business standpoint, they have to each stand on their own financial merit. If something goes wrong, that's it, its done.

If there were ever a tour again, all the events would be tied together. Hopefully, they'd all be financial winners, but as long as there are more winners than losers, the entire tour as a business would be profitable.

 

[watchez]

Shhhh.... quiet please....

There are hundreds of casinos like Turning Stone...

If we are careful not to let this secret out, we can run dozens of these $25,000 added events a year and make a REAL killing...

Like I said, I'm not involved in doing pool touirnaments cause of many reasons. But I'll be part of running a tournament in something outside of pool with a Vegas casino, casino adding $15k at least for only 64 players.

 

[watchez]

Here are some additional points, the first one was probably already made in this thread....

- One point brought up is that Zuglan is double dipping, because there is a line of guys waiting to take the spot. Have you considered if he had a yes refund policy, and 30 players dropped out instead of 5, maybe there won't be a line of standby's that long?

-Another sub-topic being brought up is that Zuglan does well in this event, because of the casino sponsorship. Therefore, he shouldn't need to double dip to make ends meet. This brings up a tangent of mine, but its worth discussing (imo )

One main problem I see with tournaments, is that each one is a separate entity, from a business standpoint. So we have people in this thread saying he makes out on this event, because of the casino. BUT, what about the other 20 stops he has every year? What if a few of them are money losers? Zuglan's tour, from a business perspective, should be considered an all event encompassing business. Not a separate business for each stop.

Now, take that a step further. Promoters often say they get the added money for bigger events from the gate. Or you will hear them say they lost money on the event. I think the issue here, is because each event is separate from a business standpoint, they have to each stand on their own financial merit. If something goes wrong, that's it, its done.

If there were ever a tour again, all the events would be tied together. Hopefully, they'd all be financial winners, but as long as there are more winners than losers, the entire tour as a business would be profitable.

Let's talk about what does happen and not what could happen. We can save chicken little for another day.

What dose happen is he gets a handful of people to back out and then double dips the entry fees. If he startes to get 30 people backing out and can't fill the spots, then he needs to go to his exit plan to adjust his event. First starting with less added money if there is less overall interest as you describe. Who knows, that might come some day. He has already barred one top american and the top american won't even play in his event.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Let's talk about what does happen and not what could happen. We can save chicken little for another day.

What dose happen is he gets a handful of people to back out and then double dips the entry fees. If he startes to get 30 people backing out and can't fill the spots, then he needs to go to his exit plan to adjust his event. First starting with less added money if there is less overall interest as you describe. Who knows, that might come some day. He has already barred one top american and the top american won't even play in his event.

None of us here know when he started his policy, and why, *exactly*. Maybe he already went through hell with the hustling players, and this was his solution. Maybe he found it fixed whatever problem he was having, so why mess with it?

So we know what "does happen" today. But we don't know what "did happen" for fact 20 years ago, or whenever he started this no-refund policy.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

I can promise you, he's doing much better than breaking even on these events. The casino gives me VERY good money just to hold the event and draw people in. He's got the best deal in pool... But that's not the point.

First, I'm going to say that I respect you as a member on this forum, and your work that you have done on training videos in the past was extremely exceptional. In the past I have read your input and you always seemed like a no nonsense guy.

However, you are really misguided to be making these accusations here on this regrettable thread.

I'm not sure you even read my first post in this thread.

I did something that anyone can do if they have questions...I called Mike and asked his thoughts on the matter.

You also could have called him or emailed him (info on the joss site) but you chose not to and instead you've made some very misguided statements here.

It was already stated by Mike that any money that comes in from cancellations go to Diamond to pay for the delivery (tractor trailers don't come cheap), installation (table mechanics and delivery guys), and use of the equipment. What I see is that Diamond donates much to this tournament in terms of sponsorship, and this initial cost for the tables is never fully covered. So an extra $800 from 4 cancellations goes into that expense (that much less that Diamond has to write off as a loss) which is perfectly on the up and up.

Now you claim Mike gets money for this event from the casino which is completely false. He gets deals for rooms and also deals for the venders. But I know for a fact that the casino executives are always looking to cancel this event because they can make a TON more profit if they book an act like Brad Paisley on Saturday night in the event center. So why would the casino let a 4 day pool tournament continue then? It's because the Chief of the Oneida nation is a big pool fan and goes to bat for Mike during every schedule conflict. There were times that the turning stone classic was hanging in limbo for so long because the executives would hope Mike just went somewhere else, but the Chief stepped in and said schedule this tournament, and the event happens.

Mike delivers enough on his promise to bring in players and book rooms to make it acceptable for the casino executives, but believe me of they had a choice they would be going with 1 or 2 musical acts to sell out the event center and pack the casino floors afterwards. So no, Mike gets nothing from the casino but permission to hold his tournament there in the event center for 4 days.

My last point was the revelation that Darren Appleton has cancelled from this upcoming turning stone classic. And trust me, his reasoning is far more serious and legitimate than anyone you know, and still he called Mike to cancel and not only did he not want the $200 fee refunded, he offered to pay a cancellation fee. Of which Mike refused. I know you have worked with Darren on a video before and you respect him. Surely, you can respect his approach to the no-refund policy.

I wasn't going to post again on this thread after my initial response, but when I see clear falsehoods being levied on a public forum, the record should be corrected.

In the Revo debate of last year, you actually went out and purchased the shaft and got first hand Intel on the product and then delivered your opinions and responses based on that (you even made a video or two and it was informative).

Maybe instead of throwing out labels or misguided/misinformed information on Mike Zuglan, you could do what you did with the Revo, and pick up the phone or write an email and express your concerns to him and you'd learn a lot about the goings on of turning stone and you might come out with an appreciation for what Mike brings to the sport with the Joss tour.

 

[watchez]

So it is Diamond that is wanting the double dip money for themselves? If there was no double dip money, then Diamond would be OK with accepting whatever price they and Mike agreed upon to bring in and setup the tables.

The point is, he uses the double dip money to save him on the actual cost of bringing in tables. Ends don't justify the means.

 

[poolscholar]

It was already stated by Mike that any money that comes in from cancellations go to Diamond to pay for the delivery (tractor trailers don't come cheap), installation (table mechanics and delivery guys), and use of the equipment. What I see is that Diamond donates much to this tournament in terms of sponsorship, and this initial cost for the tables is never fully covered. So an extra $800 from 4 cancellations goes into that expense (that much less that Diamond has to write off as a loss) which is perfectly on the up and up.

I'm no accountant but the more money he takes in the more money he makes from the event...doesn't matter the source

 

[BmoreMoney]

So it is Diamond that is wanting the double dip money for themselves? If there was no double dip money, then Diamond would be OK with accepting whatever price they and Mike agreed upon to bring in and setup the tables.

The point is, he uses the double dip money to save him on the actual cost of bringing in tables. Ends don't justify the means.

Imo, SO WHAT??? As I see it, like it or not, everyone knows the deal when they sign up A ND AGREE TO THE TERMS. Once again just imo; those in this thread that have problems with this policy, should only be concerned with themselves and THEIR money, not with what anyone else is doing with THEIR MONEY !

 

[trifectasss]

So it is Diamond that is wanting the double dip money for themselves? If there was no double dip money, then Diamond would be OK with accepting whatever price they and Mike agreed upon to bring in and setup the tables.

The point is, he uses the double dip money to save him on the actual cost of bringing in tables. Ends don't justify the means.

I didn't interpret it quite that way. I interpreted it as that Diamond sacrifices for this tournament and that he feels it's goodwill gesture to throw them the extra money taken in from the no-shows.

 

[cleary]

Funny.....Mike's tour has been going how many years now and this is just now being discussed? Jesus, if you don't like it don't plan on playing, simple as that!

That was, in fact, the point of the thread.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

I didn't interpret it quite that way. I interpreted it as that Diamond sacrifices for this tournament and that he feels it's goodwill gesture to throw them the extra money taken in from the no-shows.

Exactly the point. :thumbup:
I was starting to doubt my writing skills for a minute there. :sorry:

 

[cardiac kid]

Just for those of you who do not READ the posts but merely scan them, please look at and read the poster for the Turning Stone XXVIII event. Anyone notice Diamond is NOT, not listed as a sponsor of the event. Diamond supplies the tables at a contracted cost to the event promoters. Please be sure to understand that point before bringing Diamond Billiards Products into this discussion.

Those of you who continuously complain about MZ's business practices, why don't you run an event of this size. There are dozens and dozens of Native American Casinos across America just chomping at the bit to give away $25,000 of their tribes money. Perhaps then you will get an idea of how difficult it is to do ONCE let alone twenty eight times. Also remember the first Turning Stone event was $50,000 added!

Lyn

 

[cleary]

First, I'm going to say that I respect you as a member on this forum, and your work that you have done on training videos in the past was extremely exceptional. In the past I have read your input and you always seemed like a no nonsense guy.

However, you are really misguided to be making these accusations here on this regrettable thread.

I'm not sure you even read my first post in this thread.

I did something that anyone can do if they have questions...I called Mike and asked his thoughts on the matter.

You also could have called him or emailed him (info on the joss site) but you chose not to and instead you've made some very misguided statements here.

It was already stated by Mike that any money that comes in from cancellations go to Diamond to pay for the delivery (tractor trailers don't come cheap), installation (table mechanics and delivery guys), and use of the equipment. What I see is that Diamond donates much to this tournament in terms of sponsorship, and this initial cost for the tables is never fully covered. So an extra $800 from 4 cancellations goes into that expense (that much less that Diamond has to write off as a loss) which is perfectly on the up and up.

Now you claim Mike gets money for this event from the casino which is completely false. He gets deals for rooms and also deals for the venders. But I know for a fact that the casino executives are always looking to cancel this event because they can make a TON more profit if they book an act like Brad Paisley on Saturday night in the event center. So why would the casino let a 4 day pool tournament continue then? It's because the Chief of the Oneida nation is a big pool fan and goes to bat for Mike during every schedule conflict. There were times that the turning stone classic was hanging in limbo for so long because the executives would hope Mike just went somewhere else, but the Chief stepped in and said schedule this tournament, and the event happens.

Mike delivers enough on his promise to bring in players and book rooms to make it acceptable for the casino executives, but believe me of they had a choice they would be going with 1 or 2 musical acts to sell out the event center and pack the casino floors afterwards. So no, Mike gets nothing from the casino but permission to hold his tournament there in the event center for 4 days.

My last point was the revelation that Darren Appleton has cancelled from this upcoming turning stone classic. And trust me, his reasoning is far more serious and legitimate than anyone you know, and still he called Mike to cancel and not only did he not want the $200 fee refunded, he offered to pay a cancellation fee. Of which Mike refused. I know you have worked with Darren on a video before and you respect him. Surely, you can respect his approach to the no-refund policy.

I wasn't going to post again on this thread after my initial response, but when I see clear falsehoods being levied on a public forum, the record should be corrected.

In the Revo debate of last year, you actually went out and purchased the shaft and got first hand Intel on the product and then delivered your opinions and responses based on that (you even made a video or two and it was informative).

Maybe instead of throwing out labels or misguided/misinformed information on Mike Zuglan, you could do what you did with the Revo, and pick up the phone or write an email and express your concerns to him and you'd learn a lot about the goings on of turning stone and you might come out with an appreciation for what Mike brings to the sport with the Joss tour.

I appreciate that you think I'm a decent person and yes, I speak my mind and speak out when I see something... which is why I posted this. I feel what he's doing is wrong. I don't care if he tattoos the policy on his forehead, it's a bad business practice and he might not ever feel the hurt of having myself and others in his tournaments but I won't ever play because of it.

I'm sure there are things I don't know but I've also been told by a very reliable source what his deal with the casino is and how he profits from the turning stone. I have no problem with him profiting either so we're clear, I just don't think he should profit off of the folks who had to change their plans. Yes, I could call him up but what does that do? You really think he's gonna open up his books to a stranger? He shouldn't and he wouldn't. Hopefully he sees this and eventually rethinks his policy. Doubt it but he should.

He could very easily refund if he fills the spot, take 20% as a fee and be fine. He could also issue a credit for future tournament. I don't think any of that is unreasonable at all and a great way to show your appreciation for the people who support his events. Fact is, it's a small pool world and we should at least try to do what's right to build the game. But as long as he fills his field, I doubt he cares about any of that. Oh well, I know a few that won't be returning because of this and myself who just won't ever play. In a small pool world, eventually that catches up.

 

[Dan_B]

First, I'm going to say that I respect you as a member on this forum, and your work that you have done on training videos in the past was extremely exceptional. In the past I have read your input and you always seemed like a no nonsense guy.

However, you are really misguided to be making these accusations here on this regrettable thread.

I'm not sure you even read my first post in this thread.

I did something that anyone can do if they have questions...I called Mike and asked his thoughts on the matter.

You also could have called him or emailed him (info on the joss site) but you chose not to and instead you've made some very misguided statements here.

It was already stated by Mike that any money that comes in from cancellations go to Diamond to pay for the delivery (tractor trailers don't come cheap), installation (table mechanics and delivery guys), and use of the equipment. What I see is that Diamond donates much to this tournament in terms of sponsorship, and this initial cost for the tables is never fully covered. So an extra $800 from 4 cancellations goes into that expense (that much less that Diamond has to write off as a loss) which is perfectly on the up and up.

Now you claim Mike gets money for this event from the casino which is completely false. He gets deals for rooms and also deals for the venders. But I know for a fact that the casino executives are always looking to cancel this event because they can make a TON more profit if they book an act like Brad Paisley on Saturday night in the event center. So why would the casino let a 4 day pool tournament continue then? It's because the Chief of the Oneida nation is a big pool fan and goes to bat for Mike during every schedule conflict. There were times that the turning stone classic was hanging in limbo for so long because the executives would hope Mike just went somewhere else, but the Chief stepped in and said schedule this tournament, and the event happens.

Mike delivers enough on his promise to bring in players and book rooms to make it acceptable for the casino executives, but believe me of they had a choice they would be going with 1 or 2 musical acts to sell out the event center and pack the casino floors afterwards. So no, Mike gets nothing from the casino but permission to hold his tournament there in the event center for 4 days.

My last point was the revelation that Darren Appleton has cancelled from this upcoming turning stone classic. And trust me, his reasoning is far more serious and legitimate than anyone you know, and still he called Mike to cancel and not only did he not want the $200 fee refunded, he offered to pay a cancellation fee. Of which Mike refused. I know you have worked with Darren on a video before and you respect him. Surely, you can respect his approach to the no-refund policy.

I wasn't going to post again on this thread after my initial response, but when I see clear falsehoods being levied on a public forum, the record should be corrected.

In the Revo debate of last year, you actually went out and purchased the shaft and got first hand Intel on the product and then delivered your opinions and responses based on that (you even made a video or two and it was informative).

Maybe instead of throwing out labels or misguided/misinformed information on Mike Zuglan, you could do what you did with the Revo, and pick up the phone or write an email and express your concerns to him and you'd learn a lot about the goings on of turning stone and you might come out with an appreciation for what Mike brings to the sport with the Joss tour.

This is a clear blue sky.

 

[cardiac kid]

Fact is, it's a small pool world and we should at least try to do what's right to build the game. But as long as he fills his field, I doubt he cares about any of that. Oh well, I know a few that won't be returning because of this and myself who just won't ever play. In a small pool world, eventually that catches up.

Andrew,

Every Turning Stone event has been held on the dates listed. Every TS event has been full at 128. Every player who cashed in any of the events has been paid immediately. In the pool world of today, it's a miracle. You won't ever play in a TS event. I can understand that. You and your NYC friends can boycott all of Mike's events if you wish to. You are correct about one thing, Mike won't care about your complaints. He has way over 127 other potential players to worry about! Whether you agree or not, Turning Stone billiards events are some of the best run. EVER!

Lyn