Turning Stone - rip off

[JAM]

Not picking scabs. Just pointing out, as Cleary stated, wrong is wrong.


Nice avatar btw. Did Keith shrink?

It is an opinion. It's not wrong if you believe it is right. Whether it is wrong or right is an opinion. It is a practice that is not liked by some, and that's okay.

 

[cardiac kid]

It's in my neck of the woods as well... but there's a lot of pool tours up here. Sorry, wrong is wrong. He doesn't have to care. Doesn't have to care about the players... clearly he doesn't. I understand a lot of people like him and clearly they're go to bat for him. And he may have done a lot of great things but this business practice (posted or not) is wrong.

Wonder what you do or did for a living? Never, ever in your past did you ever take advantage of a situation to further your needs and wants? NEVER? During my 38 years in the consumer electronics business times came up when I had to decide between my store and a customer. Sometimes I chose the store. Does that make me a crooked businessman?

Seen your name attached to a tournament series in NYC / NJ as a winner in the "C" bracket. Did you go to Tony Robles or whom ever the TD was and ask to be raised to a "B" because of your win? Did you still play the next event as a "C"? If you did, your a "shady" character using your logic train. Think about it.

Lyn

 

[Rimfirejunkie]

You guys need to go back and reread what he wrote because you obviously missed it the first time. He said " it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot." Obviously the only way to give him a spot when the field is already full is to remove someone else. What he is asking for here is clear.

He did have a separate, alternate request and suggestion, which was "or maybe open up the field". I don't have any problem with this alternate suggestion which is why I didn't address it. I do however see a problem with his expectation and thinking it is ok that someone should be kicked out of the event so he that can have their spot, or even to be put ahead of anyone on the waiting list, and so I responded to that part of what he said.

I didn't miss a thing playa. I believe I understand completely. I can't speak for JB, although I took " it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot" as fill in for CANCELLATIONS!

 

[cleary]

Wonder what you do or did for a living? Never, ever in your past did you ever take advantage of a situation to further your needs and wants? NEVER? During my 38 years in the consumer electronics business times came up when I had to decide between my store and a customer. Sometimes I chose the store. Does that make me a crooked businessman?

Seen your name attached to a tournament series in NYC / NJ as a winner in the "C" bracket. Did you go to Tony Robles or whom ever the TD was and ask to be raised to a "B" because of your win? Did you still play the next event as a "C"? If you did, your a "shady" character using your logic train. Think about it.

Lyn

This is beyond idiotic. All of it. It's almost impressive actually.

 

[Poolplaya9]

Plenty of other people have already said it, but I see no problem with anything that two people voluntarily agree to if both parties honored their end of the deal and nobody was misled.

It's like if you bought a cue, got exactly what you were expecting to get get and agreed to get, for the price you agreed to pay, and then complained saying "I can't believe he charged me a thousand bucks for this cue, that's too much, I feel so wronged, blah blah blah". If you were forced to buy the cue and it was not a voluntary transaction on your part, then you just might have a legitimate gripe. If you were misled about the cue and got something other than what you agreed to, then you certainly have a gripe. But when you got exactly what you expected and what you voluntarily contracted for then there is no gripe.

If Mike makes his no refund policy known to you, and nobody forced you to have to sign up for his tournament, I just don't see how anyone can have a gripe with not getting the refund that they specifically agreed that they would not get. You don't have a right to be upset with someone for honoring their deal with you. It's just silly. You have a right to be upset when they don't honor their deal, but not when they do honor their deal.

 

[cardiac kid]

I didn't miss a thing playa. I believe I understand completely. I can't speak for JB, although I took " it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot" as fill in for CANCELLATIONS!

Turning Stone has been a Mosconi points earning event for several years. JB and every other pro player knows this is the case from January 1st to the date when the team is chosen. If you know this is the case, enter early and adjust your schedule accordingly. Might have to give up a gravy event to earn points. His choice.

I'm an amateur who plays primarily league type pool. Fly to Vegas many times over the winter to qualify to play with my BCAPL, ACS and VNEA teams for nationals. My reservations are now complete through March 2018. Why can't a pro, whose potential income is involved, do the same? Have no pity for JB or other pros who are left out.

Lyn

 

[Cardigan Kid]

There is a reason why a lot of players don't go to this tournament. I think it's a nice venue, it's on 9 ft & all that but there is just too many stupid rules especially racking. It don't fill up a month in advance. It's a points event so I tried to sign two months ago and he told me they have been full for months. No big deal that's great for him but it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot or maybe open up the field so it's more money for him, the players, and everyone. It is his tournament so he can do what he wants but just a suggestion. Keeping the players money is a joke if doesn't go back to prize fund. I know he would not refund Amar, Oscar or his Dad.

Justin, you contacted Mike 16 days ago on August 1st to try to get in a tournament that usually fills up early.

Here was Mike's response to you....

"
On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:57 PM Mike Zuglan wrote:
Justin, sorry but I am full. I wish you would have contacted me sooner. The hotel is sold out of rooms for that Saturday and possibly Friday by now. They only allow us so many rooms at our $119 rate (they can get over $300 for those days) and even those are sold out. It is a very busy place and this is why I can't wait too long. Give me a phone number and I will put you on the waiting list and call you if something opens up. Mike Zuglan"



Again, there are major parts missing or half truths missing from many statements on this thread and no one with a complaint wants to contact Mike directly. This is the nature of the sport I suppose.

 

[cardiac kid]

This is beyond idiotic. All of it. It's almost impressive actually.

Andrew,

It is not idiotic. You are calling out an individual who has the respect of the entire pool community because YOUR value system is at odds with his on ONE of his business practices. On the scale of justice, Andrew Cleary or Mike Zuglan, which way will the scale tilt?

Lyn

 

[decent dennis]

You really think someone should be kicked out of the tournament so that you can have their spot since you are a good player and want a shot to earn points? I find it hard to believe somebody could even consider this line of thinking. Aside from how obviously wrong that would be, think about the logistics. How would Mike choose who gets kicked out? What if that person already made arrangements with their employer to get approved for the time off and the use of their vacation days, and what if they already paid for their airfare and hotel, and what if they had already cancelled other things in their life and rearranged their schedule so they could attend, etc? What would cause you to think that you are somehow more important than any of the guys that signed up before you?

Or perhaps you were thinking maybe he could find a volunteer to relinquish their spot instead of kicking someone out involuntarily and you just didn't say that. But even if that were the case, what about the people on the waiting list who signed up before you that you are asking to be put in front of? What would make you think that you are more important than they are? And why should Mike have to go through the hassle of dealing with all this just because you wouldn't sign up earlier when spots were still open?

Another obvious question is why not just sign up for the event as soon as he allows sign ups, instead of risking waiting so long to sign up? It would seem that signing up early is what a responsible person would do who wants points and has a good chance to earn some like you do. Signing up "early" wouldn't even be much of a gamble because, since the points are important to you, making it there would be high on your priority list and so there isn't much that could come up that could keep you from going, but even if something unexpected and important did come up it's only 200 bucks.

Where are the words "kicked out"?

 

[Sweatin']

If Mike makes his no refund policy known to you, and nobody forced you to have to sign up for his tournament, I just don't see how anyone can have a gripe with not getting the refund that they specifically agreed that they would not get. You don't have a right to be upset with someone for honoring their deal with you. It's just silly. You have a right to be upset when they don't honor their deal, but not when they do honor their deal.

Careful here, be real careful.

You're injecting common sense into an otherwise emotional situation. That'll get you nowhere.

 

[cleary]

Plenty of other people have already said it, but I see no problem with anything that two people voluntarily agree to if both parties honored their end of the deal and nobody was misled.

It's like if you bought a cue, got exactly what you were expecting to get get and agreed to get, for the price you agreed to pay, and then complained saying "I can't believe he charged me a thousand bucks for this cue, that's too much, I feel so wronged, blah blah blah". If you were forced to buy the cue and it was not a voluntary transaction on your part, then you just might have a legitimate gripe. If you were misled about the cue and got something other than what you agreed to, then you certainly have a gripe. But when you got exactly what you expected and what you voluntarily contracted for then there is no gripe.

If Mike makes his no refund policy known to you, and nobody forced you to have to sign up for his tournament, I just don't see how anyone can have a gripe with not getting the refund that they specifically agreed that they would not get. You don't have a right to be upset with someone for honoring their deal with you. It's just silly. You have a right to be upset when they don't honor their deal, but not when they do honor their deal.

The agreement between the two parties isn't the issue, it's the business practice that happens when one of the parties says "I can't make it" and the the other party resells that spot. That's the shady part. In your example of the cue... if I don't like the cue, I still get to keep it. It doesn't disappear and end up back for the cuemaker to resell and make double.

 

[Poolplaya9]

I didn't miss a thing playa. I believe I understand completely. I can't speak for JB, although I took " it would be nice to give the players wanting to earn points a spot" as fill in for CANCELLATIONS!

If that is what he thought, the clear implication is the expectation of being put before the people on the waiting list, otherwise there would not have been a reason to mention it since there was nothing that prevented him from being put on the waiting list behind the people that were already on it, and my post already addressed the scenario of his being put ahead of people on the waiting list. I don't see where you disagree with any of my post unless you think it would be ok for Mike to put him in the event ahead of anybody that was already in it or that was already on the waiting list.

 

[JAM]

Justin, you contacted Mike 16 days ago on August 1st to try to get in a tournament that usually fills up early.

Here was Mike's response to you....

"
On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 7:57 PM Mike Zuglan wrote:
Justin, sorry but I am full. I wish you would have contacted me sooner. The hotel is sold out of rooms for that Saturday and possibly Friday by now. They only allow us so many rooms at our $119 rate (they can get over $300 for those days) and even those are sold out. It is a very busy place and this is why I can't wait too long. Give me a phone number and I will put you on the waiting list and call you if something opens up. Mike Zuglan"



Again, there are major parts missing or half truths missing from many statements on this thread and no one with a complaint wants to contact Mike directly. This is the nature of the sport I suppose.

How did you get this info? I'm not disputing it, but I was wondering if you are part of the Joss Tour staff.

 

[iusedtoberich]

No one every goes right to the source, because they are tire kickers. Only serious people pick up the phone and call the source, which is even better than email/text. The rest of us, whine and moan on here and FB

When you want something done, you call the person.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

Exactly, he fills his field and that's all he cares about. If he can get lucky and have a dozen or so players drop out... bonus money, the shady way. Like I said, if that's not shady to you, your morals are questionable. Oh well, that's pool for ya.

Andrew, shady is your opinion unless the business practice is being done behind the scenes, then it would be a fact.
There has been over 27 turning stone tournaments for a decade and a half now. This policy has been in place for very long time. Every player is made aware of the rule.

So it falls into the business practices of utility companies charging a fee for missed payments, or credit card companies increasing a rate on overdue bills, or even ticketmaster charging a fee for buying a ticket to a concert.

Disagreeable? Yes, it's everyone's right to disagree.
But shady? No, it's the business's right and the buyer/player is aware of the rules beforehand therefore it's out in the open and not in the shade in the very least.

 

[cleary]

Turning Stone has been a Mosconi points earning event for several years. JB and every other pro player knows this is the case from January 1st to the date when the team is chosen. If you know this is the case, enter early and adjust your schedule accordingly.

And let's just say, you're a pro player who does exactly as you say. In January, they sign up early for the Labor Day tournament. In February, you find out your wife is pregnant and the baby is due around Labor Day... you just wasted $200 that could have bought diapers with because some asshat pool tour director has a shitty policy. Now, imagine if that same pool player had a father who was also a pro pool player, who had also signed up (when you said they should). Should that father miss the birth of their grandchild or the family eat yet another $200? But I'm sure this situation isn't believable... right?

 

[Cardigan Kid]

How did you get this info? I'm not disputing it, but I was wondering if you are part of the Joss Tour staff.

Very simple, Mike's email is on the site.
I just like to get both sides to stories before I make determinations on events/people.
Also, for obvious reasons, many pool players/insiders do not come on AZ forums and I really like this forum and I what it brings to the pool world. So everyone should get a fair shake when threads like this emerge.

That's why I wrote to Mike to get his side of the story. I thought it was odd because I didn't think the tourney was full 2 months ago when Justin claimed to have contacted Mike. Justin is a great player and I like to watch him play so to have him up here wouldve been a treat. It's unfortunate that he didn't get in earlier.

 

[Cardigan Kid]

And let's just say, you're a pro player who does exactly as you say. In January, they sign up early for the Labor Day tournament. In February, you find out your wife is pregnant and the baby is due around Labor Day... you just wasted $200 that could have bought diapers with because some asshat pool tour director has a shitty policy. Now, imagine if that same pool player had a father who was also a pro pool player, who had also signed up (when you said they should). Should that father miss the birth of their grandchild or the family eat yet another $200? But I'm sure this situation isn't believable... right?

Yes, very unfortunate, but they both benefited greatly from this tournament in the past decade and surely should see the benefits of losing the $400 for keeping order. (I'm assuming they got spots in this tourney in the past because those spots were open due to players not cavalier signing up because they know they'd lose money of something came up).

Darren has his serious reasons too for missing the tournament (which I won't make public out of respect for him), and he didn't expect a refund, I'm assuming because he knows the wisdom of this policy while holding a 128 player tournament in a casino.

 

[garczar]

And let's just say, you're a pro player who does exactly as you say. In January, they sign up early for the Labor Day tournament. In February, you find out your wife is pregnant and the baby is due around Labor Day... you just wasted $200 that could have bought diapers with because some asshat pool tour director has a shitty policy. Now, imagine if that same pool player had a father who was also a pro pool player, who had also signed up (when you said they should). Should that father miss the birth of their grandchild or the family eat yet another $200? But I'm sure this situation isn't believable... right?

WTH, what if his whole family were players? WAAAH. Get over it. The policy is there to see and has been for some time. How long are you willing to beat this horse? I agree that there's nothing shady going on in the least.

 

[Poolplaya9]

The agreement between the two parties isn't the issue, it's the business practice that happens when one of the parties says "I can't make it" and the the other party resells that spot. That's the shady part. In your example of the cue... if I don't like the cue, I still get to keep it. It doesn't disappear and end up back for the cuemaker to resell and make double.

It's not shady if you were made aware of it, were not misled in any way, and you voluntarily agreed to it. You have no complaint when you get exactly what you agreed to get.

Although it is immaterial, Mike just so happens to have a number of good reasons for this policy which were already laid out in the thread. I know you don't agree that they are good reasons, but they are. But again, it doesn't matter because if you voluntarily agree to it, and you get what you agreed to, then there is no legitimate complaint because you got exactly what you agreed to get.

Now if your agreement was specifically "I agree that I won't get a refund only if you don't replace me on the bracket with someone else", or if your agreement was "I agree that I won't get a refund only if you spend my forfeited $200 in a certain way", and then he doesn't honor that, then you have a legitimate gripe because he didn't honor part of your agreement. You don't get to have a say in things after the fact outside of what you contracted for though. If there were no agreed stipulations as to what he would have to do with the now empty spot on the bracket, or with what he would have to do with the forfeited entry money, then it isn't any of your business what he chooses to do regarding those things as it was never a part of the agreement or even the discussion. If they were important, then you should have included them in your agreement with him but since you didn't you have no right to now expect things that were never part of the deal.