Turning Stone - rip off

cleary said:
False. If anything, I cost them money. But you're not going to get that.
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So...You believe that you cost Delta money, but when you got home from your trip you called them and 'explained' the situation. Why? Was it perhaps because you felt like you had not been given the services promised?

Then, why did you accept their compensation? That is thievery. Unless you had every stockholders permission to get that compensation, you and the employee who gave that stole from the business owners.

Yeah, you have the moral high ground.
 
Get_A_Grip said:
[....] I have no problems with filling the newly available spots with someone on the waiting list to ensure a full chart.[...].
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Yes, the event is better with a full field.

But it is also better when that field includes more top-rated players. So I think it is important to have strong disincentives from being cavalier about reserving an entry. Making them nonrefundable and nontransferable is one way. Yes there is an occasional story where we might have some empathy, like Oscar and his Dad. But in the aggregate the policy might do more good than harm.

The argument that the policy is inherently unethical just holds no water. It stems from the idea that what you are paying for is spot W17 on the tournament board, like when you have a ticket for seat 14B at a concert.

But it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see there are other ways to view what it is you are paying for. In particular, in this case you are paying for the guarantee that you will be in the draw if you show up, period.

If you make a reservation for a whale-watching trip on a boat that holds 12 people, and you don't show up, they're going to invite a walk-in tourist to go on the boat. Unethical? No. You didn't rent out 10 square feet on the starboard side of the boat, you merely paid for a guarantee that you would go in the trip if you showed up. What they do if you don't show up is not really your business or your concern.
 
mikepage said:
Yes, the event is better with a full field.

But it is also better when that field includes more top-rated players. So I think it is important to have strong disincentives from being cavalier about reserving an entry. Making them nonrefundable and nontransferable is one way. Yes there is an occasional story where we might have some empathy, like Oscar and his Dad. But in the aggregate the policy might do more good than harm.

The argument that the policy is inherently unethical just holds no water. It stems from the idea that what you are paying for is spot W17 on the tournament board, like when you have a ticket for seat 14B at a concert.

But it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see there are other ways to view what it is you are paying for. In particular, in this case you are paying for the guarantee that you will be in the draw if you show up, period.

If you make a reservation for a whale-watching trip on a boat that holds 12 people, and you don't show up, they're going to invite a walk-in tourist to go on the boat. Unethical? No. You didn't rent out 10 square feet on the starboard side of the boat, you merely paid for a guarantee that you would go in the trip if you showed up. What they do if you don't show up is not really your business or your concern.
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Bingo!! "He shoots, he scores!!!!".
 
cleary said:
I work on television and deal with contracts all the time. I've very familiar with how business works and how contracts work. I also know that sometimes you may not like the terms of a deal but you need to do the deal anyway, for different reasons.

You also clearly didn't read what I've posted because I've never played in this even, tried to play in this event or even given them my money. However, I know many who have and who have ended up needing to back out for various reasons. I know you're not understand this... and you probably never will but I'll try one more time... IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO ISSUE A REFUND (THAT'S FINE), DON'T RESELL THEIR SPOT. Reselling the spot is the shady part of this... If you want a full field and want to resell their spot, give them a refund or credit. One or the other.
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Of the people you know who had to back out, how many still play in the event and how many do not and do they not play because they did not get a refund when they backed out?
 
mikepage said:
If you make a reservation for a whale-watching trip on a boat that holds 12 people, and you don't show up, they're going to invite a walk-in tourist to go on the boat. Unethical? No. You didn't rent out 10 square feet on the starboard side of the boat, you merely paid for a guarantee that you would go in the trip if you showed up. What they do if you don't show up is not really your business or your concern.
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Mike: Your example is a failure as it is apples and oranges -- For Turning Stone, you are paying the entry fee that goes into the PRIZE POOL. You aren't paying for the right to enter/entertainment value of the event such as a whale watching cruise. If a tournament is profiting off the player, that would handled with a green fee. So again, if MZ wanted to keep that fee for himself on a refund situation, so be it. But your entry goes into the prize pool, the tournament director is simply faciliating the prize pool for the players by collecing the money. It doesn't (well it shouldn't but for TS is wrongfully does) go into the pocket of the tournament director to do what ever he feels like with it at his discretion.
 
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Got some more 'shady' organizations for the OP to expose.....

The World Professional Billiards and Snooker Association does not refund entry fees.
 
mikepage said:
Yes, the event is better with a full field.

But it is also better when that field includes more top-rated players. So I think it is important to have strong disincentives from being cavalier about reserving an entry. Making them nonrefundable and nontransferable is one way. Yes there is an occasional story where we might have some empathy, like Oscar and his Dad. But in the aggregate the policy might do more good than harm.

The argument that the policy is inherently unethical just holds no water. It stems from the idea that what you are paying for is spot W17 on the tournament board, like when you have a ticket for seat 14B at a concert.

But it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see there are other ways to view what it is you are paying for. In particular, in this case you are paying for the guarantee that you will be in the draw if you show up, period.

If you make a reservation for a whale-watching trip on a boat that holds 12 people, and you don't show up, they're going to invite a walk-in tourist to go on the boat. Unethical? No. You didn't rent out 10 square feet on the starboard side of the boat, you merely paid for a guarantee that you would go in the trip if you showed up. What they do if you don't show up is not really your business or your concern.
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Post of the thread. Well done.

On a side note, you have experience with tournaments. I saw earlier some people suggested just expand the field of their are more than 128 players who want to play.

I never liked seeing opening rounds with fifty byes/empty slots when there are expanding field sizes. A full field set number of players is good for everyone, players and spectators.

That being said, you have experience with tournaments, can you verify that a field expansion cannot happen when you have a fixed four day schedule on a fixed number of tables? At turning stone, every other hour is a new round of play as the tournament progresses.

the next larger size of field, would bring more rounds and more days would be needed. Is this correct?
 
mikepage said:
Yes, the event is better with a full field.

But it is also better when that field includes more top-rated players. So I think it is important to have strong disincentives from being cavalier about reserving an entry. Making them nonrefundable and nontransferable is one way. Yes there is an occasional story where we might have some empathy, like Oscar and his Dad. But in the aggregate the policy might do more good than harm.

The argument that the policy is inherently unethical just holds no water. It stems from the idea that what you are paying for is spot W17 on the tournament board, like when you have a ticket for seat 14B at a concert.

But it doesn't take a lot of imagination to see there are other ways to view what it is you are paying for. In particular, in this case you are paying for the guarantee that you will be in the draw if you show up, period.

If you make a reservation for a whale-watching trip on a boat that holds 12 people, and you don't show up, they're going to invite a walk-in tourist to go on the boat. Unethical? No. You didn't rent out 10 square feet on the starboard side of the boat, you merely paid for a guarantee that you would go in the trip if you showed up. What they do if you don't show up is not really your business or your concern.
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Another fantastic explanation using good logic. The problem is that many people just refuse to use logic and would rather go with how something "feels" to them on the surface rather than choosing to look at something through the lens of logic and reason. In the world you have logical people and "feel" people, and the "feel" people are never going to properly understand this issue or multitudes of other things. Choosing to go by how something "feels" on the surface rather than choosing to use good logic and reason will always leave them ignorant and misinformed in those cases. But as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.
 
Cardigan Kid said:
Post of the thread. Well done.

On a side note, you have experience with tournaments. I saw earlier some people suggested just expand the field of their are more than 128 players who want to play.

I never liked seeing opening rounds with fifty byes/empty slots when there are expanding field sizes. A full field set number of players is good for everyone, players and spectators.

That being said, you have experience with tournaments, can you verify that a field expansion cannot happen when you have a fixed four day schedule on a fixed number of tables? At turning stone, every other hour is a new round of play as the tournament progresses.

the next larger size of field, would bring more rounds and more days would be needed. Is this correct?
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Or you can state -- fielf of 128, the race is to 11 (ore whatever it is), with a field of over 128 races will be to 11 on the winners side and 9 on the losers side, over 192 players, races to 9 on both sides. There are ways to work around it to get more people involved.
 
watchez said:
Or you can state -- fielf of 128, the race is to 11 (ore whatever it is), with a field of over 128 races will be to 11 on the winners side and 9 on the losers side, over 192 players, races to 9 on both sides. There are ways to work around it to get more people involved.
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But wouldn't that anger a whole new set of players (like the ones that lose 10-9 on losers side but would've had a chance if it was all race to 11, etc)?

So to appease one side, you anger another, or create a whole new set of complaints. You would definitely know more than I.

It's the same with racking rules, break rules, etc.
 
Poolplaya9 said:
Another fantastic explanation using good logic. The problem is that many people just refuse to use logic and would rather go with how something "feels" to them on the surface rather than choosing to look at something through the lens of logic and reason. In the world you have logical people and "feel" people, and the "feel" people are never going to properly understand this issue or multitudes of other things. Choosing to go by how something "feels" on the surface rather than choosing to use good logic and reason will always leave them ignorant and misinformed in those cases. But as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.
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But he isn't arguing the main issue of the entry fee being non-transferable and non-refundable, which I think is a horrible business practice, but do not find it unethical or shade tree.
 
watchez said:
Mike: Your example is a failure as it is apples and oranges -- For Turning Stone, you are paying the entry fee that goes into the PRIZE POOL. [...].
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There you go marking dollars again. Of the two dollar bills in your wallet, which one is for rent and which one is for diapers? Would you be all bent out of shape if somebody switched them on you when you weren't looking?

There are many sources of income and many expenses. The prize pool is one expense. It is

added$$ + (number of players who play) times N.
 
garczar said:
Transparently shady??? Is that like "jumbo shrimp" or "military intelligence"? Have you ever put a deposit down on an apt. or house? You know going in you're NOT getting it back and the landlord/realtor can use it to buy say, crack if they so choose. I don't like this policy but i was aware of it and still make the deposit. If i renege on the deal, on what planet should i deserve a refund? How is this pool tournament entry any different?
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Yes, I've put a deposit on both an apt (when I rented) and a house. When I quit renting to buy a house, the landlord gave me back the month and a half security deposit from 5 years prior. So... no idea what you're talking about.

And the deposit or "down payment" I put on my house is just that, a percentage of the house. One day when I sell my house, I'll get my money (hopefully more) back.

You do live on earth, correct?
 
PoppaSaun said:
So...You believe that you cost Delta money, but when you got home from your trip you called them and 'explained' the situation. Why? Was it perhaps because you felt like you had not been given the services promised?

Then, why did you accept their compensation? That is thievery. Unless you had every stockholders permission to get that compensation, you and the employee who gave that stole from the business owners.

Yeah, you have the moral high ground.
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lol Jesus you're amazing

They had an empty seat for that flight. They could have refunded me and resold the seat or given me a credit and resold the seat. That's why they could have lost money.

I called them to see if there was something they could do, and there was. Because they're a good company.

It's not that I didn't accept their compensation for the hotel, it's that I didn't want to fill out paperwork.

Yes, I'm a moral person. You can slice me up all you want but it's clear you're not on my level morally.
 
mikepage said:
If you make a reservation for a whale-watching trip on a boat that holds 12 people, and you don't show up, they're going to invite a walk-in tourist to go on the boat. Unethical? No. You didn't rent out 10 square feet on the starboard side of the boat, you merely paid for a guarantee that you would go in the trip if you showed up. What they do if you don't show up is not really your business or your concern.
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Any business worth it's weight in dog turds would refund that ticket or offer a credit for the future. Period.
 
cleary said:
Yes, I've put a deposit on both an apt (when I rented) and a house. When I quit renting to buy a house, the landlord gave me back the month and a half security deposit from 5 years prior. So... no idea what you're talking about.

And the deposit or "down payment" I put on my house is just that, a percentage of the house. One day when I sell my house, I'll get my money (hopefully more) back.

You do live on earth, correct?[/QUOT My bad here. I was referring to holding deposits not security deposits. You find an apt. or house and give a HD to get it off open market. You change your mind its history. Now before you go all "high moral ground" on me i understand even HD's can be returned in extreme circum. but its pretty rare.
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I've got a few questions on this whole deal: Is there one entry-form for all JOSS NE events or does each stop have its own form? Are the rules and policies pertaining to fees, payments, refunds, etc. listed on the form(s)? Are most entries done over the phone/online with a credit-card? I have zero problems with MZ's policy but was just wondering if its clearly stated in print or on their website. Site is currently down so i can't check.
 
cleary said:
[...] it's clear you're not on my level morally.
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Look, Cleary, you are a recreational-level player who does not fit with the vast majority of the field at the Turning Stone event, a major event that usually has a few international superstars, a bunch of national-class players, and many top regional players.

You have never entered it, before or now, have never entered the smaller tour events, and I see no evidence you enter other open events in your area.

Yet you somehow have bewildered friends baffled by your sitting this one out, and that is your springboard to start a major public dissing with "rip off" in the title and phrases like "super shady."

Then it seems anyone here who DOES go to the event or the smaller stops and DOES live in the area the tour serves seems to support the character of the organizer, whether they agree with every decision or not.

And anybody can see the tour has been going on for 20 years and has 22 5-star reviews and 1 4-star review on facebook.

And when anybody challenges your "super shady" judgment, you label THEM super shady.

I think President Trump would label you a grandstander

In any case many might agree with your quote above.
 

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