Turning Stone - rip off

[Poolplaya9]

It was quite clear but you're taking this way to personal.

But Cleary has just as much of a right to complain about a pool tournaments policies as you are to complain about him complaining about it.

Clear? Crystal clear?

Your reading comprehension obviously hasn't been too good in this thread. I don't really care that he doesn't like the policy (until they run their opinion into the ground anyway). That is mostly a personal preference thing and I am not arguing opinions with him. What the big issue is to me is when someone is making factually incorrect claims, such as that there are no good reasons at all for the policy, when if fact there are some, or that the policy is shady or unethical, when in fact it isn't. Had he said "I don't like the policy yada yada" I probably would never have commented. But when he says it is shady and unethical, now he has crossed the line from the opinion stuff and is now saying something that is just factually wrong. When I see factually wrong information on here I will likely correct it. You got a problem with that? You clear on everything now?

 

[KRJ]

Your reading comprehension obviously hasn't been too good in this thread. I don't really care that he doesn't like the policy (until they run their opinion into the ground anyway). That is mostly a personal preference thing and I am not arguing opinions with him. What the big issue is to me is when someone is making factually incorrect claims, such as that there are no good reasons at all for the policy, when if fact there are some, or that the policy is shady or unethical, when in fact it isn't. Had he said "I don't like the policy yada yada" I probably would never have commented. But when he says it is shady and unethical, now he has crossed the line from the opinion stuff and is now saying something that is just factually wrong. When I see factually wrong information on here I will likely correct it. You got a problem with that? You clear on everything now?

LOL. Yeah, you way over thinking something and taking it way to personal. If that is shady business to some, and not to others. He still has the right to his opinion. Enjoy the fight, I'm just here for a few laughs.

 

[Pushout]

The real question is why would it fall onto the players as was incorrectly described and incorrectly supposedly used by MZ and the double dip.

The casino pays for it cause it is part of the deal MZ made to bring in 128+ degenerate gamblers into the casino for a few days.

I doubt it.

 

[Poolplaya9]

LOL. Yeah, you way over thinking something and taking it way to personal. Enjoy the fight, I'm just here for a few laughs.

We obviously have different tolerance levels for misinformation. Mine is low. Yours is higher. I think everybody's tolerance level for misinformation should be low but like the old saying goes, wish in one hand, and sh!t in the other, and see which one fills up faster...lol.

 

[JAM]

Prairie dogs build up large stores of body fat to carry them through the fall and winter months. Unlike most other members of their family, black-tailed prairie dogs do not hibernate. They may remain underground for several days during periods of harsh weather, but a return to milder winter conditions will find their towns bustling with activity.

 

[cardiac kid]

But Cleary has just as much of a right to complain about a pool tournaments policies as you are to complain about him complaining about it.

Seriously RJ? If I started a thread saying your branded chalk was garbage and a rip off without ever seeing it let alone using it, you would be OK with that because I have a right to do so? Really? If I tried it and disliked it, that would be something different. We see comments like that from time to time on this forum and a discussion ensues. Hopefully a factual one. IMHO, this is character assassination pure and simple. Which scenario would you prefer?

Lyn

 

[cleary]

We obviously have different tolerance levels for misinformation. Mine is low. Yours is higher. I think everybody's tolerance level for misinformation should be low but like the old saying goes, wish in one hand, and sh!t in the other, and see which one fills up faster...lol.

There isn't a good reason why he couldn't offer a future credit for the spot or transfer to another player. The only reason is that while it wouldn't hurt him, it's not favorable to him. He'd rather get the free $200 and risk that player never coming back when he could have very easily pleased both sides. Fact! Also, reselling the spot in my opinion is unethical. That's an opinion. Neither I or you can be factually correct about an opinion because it's an opinion.

 

[cleary]

Seriously RJ? If I started a thread saying your branded chalk was garbage and a rip off without ever seeing it let alone using it, you would be OK with that because I have a right to do so? Really? If I tried it and disliked it, that would be something different. We see comments like that from time to time on this forum and a discussion ensues. Hopefully a factual one. IMHO, this is character assassination pure and simple. Which scenario would you prefer?

Lyn

Apples and oranges. I don't need to sign up for a Verizon contact to feel their policies are bad and unfavorable to the costumer. I would need to physically use their phone to claim their phones don't work correctly. It's two different things.

 

[KRJ]

Seriously RJ? If I started a thread saying your branded chalk was garbage and a rip off without ever seeing it let alone using it, you would be OK with that because I have a right to do so? Really? If I tried it and disliked it, that would be something different. We see comments like that from time to time on this forum and a discussion ensues. Hopefully a factual one. IMHO, this is character assassination pure and simple. Which scenario would you prefer?

Lyn

Lynn, I'm only agreeing to Cleary's right to disagree with the "refund" policy.

So, yes, if you started a thread and believed my refund policy was "unfair", then sure, you can start a thread about it. I don't have to be happy about it, but those are the chances you take doing business.

If you don't like my chalk, for any reason, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, you return it for a FULL refund including all shipping charges. I mean, if it's so good, why NOT give double your money back, right ? lol So, if someone is upset that I don't give double your money back, so be it. If they start a thread I'll take the heat

Heck, I've seen threads on Facebook that the chalk is made in China, Mexico, Brazil, Germany, Finland, wherever? Now, that is not a disagreement or opinion, just misinformation.

Now if someone does not want to buy chalk cause it's made in Russia, and you should only buy "American", then it's their choice and their right to complain about it

yes, Cleary's use of verbiage at times is "incorrect" and should be changed, but I think he already admitted that. I'm only going by the "no refund policy" in general. I'd be pissed as hell if my hotel did that to me. oh, wait, they use to do that, but customer service reared its' ugly head and it was soon changed across the board in almost every hotel I've ever stayed at.

Mike seems like a stand up guy and I got nothing to say about him. I'm only saying Cleary can disagree with a policy whether or not he actually attends the event. Heck, someone can disagree with my policies whether or not they buy chalk.

My last post on this. I don't know how I got dragged back into this thread.. but I'm bored and at work

 

[Poolplaya9]

There isn't a good reason why he couldn't offer a future credit for the spot or transfer to another player.

Yes he could go that route if he felt that on net it was the best policy overall for him and the players and the fans etc. Post #433 gives some reasons why he might not want to go that route though.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5953719&postcount=433

I do agree that there are also some good reasons behind other policies as well. Which way nets out as being best all things considered can be debated and will even vary depending on how you define "best" and whose perspective you are looking from. Best for Mike, best for the players, best for the fans, etc may (or may not) yield different answers and truth be told all of them need to be taken into consideration but at the end of the day what is best for Mike should probably carry the most weight since he is running a business and not a charity.

I don't personally have a problem with it if Mike gives a 0% refund, or a 100% refund, or anywhere in between. Nor do I have a problem with him allowing the players to sell their spots or not sell their spots. Nor do I have a problem with him "reselling" or not "reselling" a spot if he doesn't refund the person who withdrew. I have my opinions on which are better than others of course, but none of the above are unethical. I do have a problem though if someone says that there aren't any good reasons for his policy because that is just factually wrong as there are in fact some good reasons. What is best overall can be debated, but that he has some good reasons can't be.

Also, reselling the spot in my opinion is unethical. That's an opinion. Neither I or you can be factually correct about an opinion because it's an opinion.

That's where you are once again wrong. The ethics on this are clear and are not based on opinion at all. You nor anyone else has offered a logical argument yet as to how his policy is unethical. Plenty of arguments have been offered for why you don't like the policy and for why you wish it were different, but none have been given for it being shady or unethical. Big difference. On the other hand I have fully explained with good logic why it is in fact perfectly ethical. I have a problem with somebody incorrectly disparaging somebody's character by calling them shady or unethical when they aren't being either one.

 

[JoeyA]

I'm guessing that is a, NO!

But seriously, as difficult as it is to create a successful and recurring pool tournament event, why would a promoter or tournament director risk making changes that might negatively impact the event?

JoeyA

You are way out in left field on this one, sir... a couple hundred bucks vs being liable for "any losses"?

Hmmm...decisions, decisions.

 

[watchez]

I'm guessing that is a, NO!

But seriously, as difficult as it is to create a successful and recurring pool tournament event, why would a promoter or tournament director risk making changes that might negatively impact the event?

JoeyA

Sometimes I think you make a comment just to make a comment, and don't really think about what you are posting.

EVERY major sport -- you know the ones that are successful -- has made changes.

MLB - use of DH, instant replay, moved fences in or out at different parks, # of teams that make the playoffs, playoff format, oh you might even remember when they just had day baseball.

NFL - overtime rules, extra point rules, placement of the field goal post in the end zone, instant replay

NHL - icing rules, overtime rules, players having to wear a helmet (i think some peole in this thread didn't wear one as a kid)

NBA - 3 point line, zone defenses, drafting of h.s. players.

Golf - lets see. The Masters, the most reknowned golf event each year, moved all the tee boxes back.

The list can go on and on. So yes MZ could change his rules to BETTER his event when it comes to things such as racking or refunds.

 

[JoeyA]

The problem is YOU don't understand. This is one individual's decision as to how he handles HIS business.

Mike Zuglan has been OPEN & HONEST about what he is doing and a couple of people (who don't even play in his events) want to tell him how to run his business.

Furthermore, some of you want to make disparaging remarks about someone who you are not even involved with and knowing that remarks like "RIP-OFF" & "UNETHICAL" could damage his reputation with some weak-minded individuals.

THANK GOODNESS YOU AND CLEARY ARE IN THE MINIORITY. Lol

JoeyA

Sometimes I think you make a comment just to make a comment, and don't really think about what you are posting.

EVERY major sport -- you know the ones that are successful -- has made changes.

MLB - use of DH, instant replay, moved fences in or out at different parks, # of teams that make the playoffs, playoff format, oh you might even remember when they just had day baseball.

NFL - overtime rules, extra point rules, placement of the field goal post in the end zone, instant replay

NHL - icing rules, overtime rules, players having to wear a helmet (i think some peole in this thread didn't wear one as a kid)

NBA - 3 point line, zone defenses, drafting of h.s. players.

Golf - lets see. The Masters, the most reknowned golf event each year, moved all the tee boxes back.

The list can go on and on. So yes MZ could change his rules to BETTER his event when it comes to things such as racking or refunds.

 

[DelawareDogs]

The problem is YOU don't understand. This is one individual's decision as to how he handles HIS business.

Mike Zuglan has been OPEN & HONEST about what he is doing and a couple of people (who don't even play in his events) want to tell him how to run his business.

Furthermore, some of you want to make disparaging remarks about someone who you are not even involved with and knowing that remarks like "RIP-OFF" & "UNETHICAL" could damage his reputation with some weak-minded individuals.

THANK GOODNESS YOU AND CLEARY ARE IN THE MINIORITY. Lol

JoeyA

I've got to side with this post. Has the OP, being as he lives so near, expressed his opinion to MZ at all before coming on here and posting a "bruising" title?

It's $200 bucks man, and was put in with an open understanding that refunds for dropping out are not given. It's the risk you take and it's the result you incurred.

We get that story of how someone was gonna play in one and got their wife pregnant and now they can't. Chalk it up to one of the many costs of having a baby, you can't do certain things anymore. If the $200 dinged you that bad, start up a GoFundMe and have some of us put 10 bucks in the kitty. I'll be one to help out a fellow pool player.

To put this into my perspective for you, I sign up for the Expo up in PA almost every year I can go. There are people that get in last minute due to drop outs. Do you think those players that dropped out are ALL getting reimbursed? Do you think the TD is just another shady-moral-compassed director for not leaving the bracket open in their absence?

If so I feel seriously bad for you, bro and wish you the best. Like you said, pool's standards might be low. But love it or leave it, because it's moving on without you. At least this Turning Stone is.

 

[pt109]

It makes some people happy
It makes some people groan
But come August 31th
Gonna be at the Stone

 

[watchez]

The problem is YOU don't understand. This is one individual's decision as to how he handles HIS business.

Mike Zuglan has been OPEN & HONEST about what he is doing and a couple of people (who don't even play in his events) want to tell him how to run his business.

Furthermore, some of you want to make disparaging remarks about someone who you are not even involved with and knowing that remarks like "RIP-OFF" & "UNETHICAL" could damage his reputation with some weak-minded individuals.

THANK GOODNESS YOU AND CLEARY ARE IN THE MINIORITY. Lol

JoeyA

He isnt honest. Double dipping is not an honest thing to do, no matter how you spin it. And his comment to some that the double dip money goes to Diamond (which would be completely unjustified as it is), simply doesn't happen.

Beyond that, you stated change was not good for what you deem successful events. The truth is, change happens all the time. But you can't handle or moreso, comprehend the truth.

Get back to me after you watch a few reruns of your favorite show, Bonus Ball.

 

[JAM]

Once thought to be globally extinct, black-footed ferrets are making a comeback. For the last thirty years, concerted efforts from many state and federal agencies, zoos, Native American tribes, conservation organizations and private landowners have given black-footed ferrets a second chance for survival. Today, recovery efforts have helped restore the black-footed ferret population to nearly 300 animals across North America.

 

[Ky Boy]

Has the "NO REFUND" policy always been MZ's...policy?

I've looked at this from both sides and while I would agree that offering a refund or a push to next event would be beneficial for some, it may also have a slight negative effect over a period of time on the event as a whole. Maybe over time the tourney doesn't fill up and eventually has a much smaller field. Who knows!

I'm just playing Devils Advocate here though. Personally, I've always been one to support or not support "things" with my money. And evidently, 128 players and an unknown amount of spectators do the same with Turning Stone.

I happen to think the notion that someone can "force" another to change how they do business is what has many up in arms about this. It's spilling over from societal issues.

Personally, I don't desire how to be told to run my business. Constructive criticism is always welcome and always duly noted. If you don't like, don't support it! All these jabs at a person's ethics are uncalled for and frankly, says more about the OP than MZ.

 

[BmoreMoney]

Sometimes I think you make a comment just to make a comment, and don't really think about what you are posting.

EVERY major sport -- you know the ones that are successful -- has made changes.

MLB - use of DH, instant replay, moved fences in or out at different parks, # of teams that make the playoffs, playoff format, oh you might even remember when they just had day baseball.

NFL - overtime rules, extra point rules, placement of the field goal post in the end zone, instant replay

NHL - icing rules, overtime rules, players having to wear a helmet (i think some peole in this thread didn't wear one as a kid)

NBA - 3 point line, zone defenses, drafting of h.s. players.

Golf - lets see. The Masters, the most reknowned golf event each year, moved all the tee boxes back.

The list can go on and on. So yes MZ could change his rules to BETTER his event when it comes to things such as racking or refunds.

Lolo lol you ,ad some good points . However, you do realize EVERY change made is in an effort to increase bottom line! Probably what he is doing lol.

 

[JoeyA]

I've never watched a game of Bonus Ball.

You really don't have a clue.

The facts are that you don't like the way Zuglan runs his event. TOUGH.

He's honest. LOTS of people like him. The Turning Stone event is WELL-LIKED & APPRECIATED as it is.

Get used to it.

JoeyA

He isnt honest. Double dipping is not an honest thing to do, no matter how you spin it. And his comment to some that the double dip money goes to Diamond (which would be completely unjustified as it is), simply doesn't happen.

Beyond that, you stated change was not good for what you deem successful events. The truth is, change happens all the time. But you can't handle or moreso, comprehend the truth.

Get back to me after you watch a few reruns of your favorite show, Bonus Ball.