Dishonest sales on this forum

[ideologist]

When someone outright lies in a listing, is there any consequence?

We're not allowed to knock listings for some reason. I understand price knocking being considered poor form, but calling out a straight lie gets you yelled at?

AZ staff, what's the policy on this? Do frequent dishonest sellers get banned?

Here's my post: http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5983697&postcount=33

 

[Coop1701]

When someone outright lies in a listing, is there any consequence?

We're not allowed to knock listings for some reason. I understand price knocking being considered poor form, but calling out a straight lie gets you yelled at?

AZ staff, what's the policy on this? Do frequent dishonest sellers get banned?

There should be consequences. I hope the AZ staff monitors that and investigates when necessary. I sell and buy off of here all the time. Luckily I haven’t had any issues yet.

 

[azhousepro]

We certainly want to make users aware of bad seeds like that, but we do stop short of banning them. If we ban them, then they just come back with another username, and no one knows about the old username.

What would be ideal, would be a list with First Name, Last Name, City and State. That way when someone is making a deal, they can check then the user gives them the shipping info. I know there are ways around even that, but I don't know how else to handle it.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

[ROB.M]

Don't they all hit a ton....?



Rob.M

 

[WildWing]

We certainly want to make users aware of bad seeds like that, but we do stop short of banning them. If we ban them, then they just come back with another username, and no one knows about the old username.

What would be ideal, would be a list with First Name, Last Name, City and State. That way when someone is making a deal, they can check then the user gives them the shipping info. I know there are ways around even that, but I don't know how else to handle it.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Agree, and it's a difficult conundrum.

However, claims of dishonesty require sufficient evidence.. I have no doubt that not all cue sales are genuine, but specificity is important. If you think a cue is not genuine, you have to start with:

- The ferrule. Is it not the ferrule that the original maker used, and why? Some old cuemakers used some pretty common materials, such as Lucite and good old white fiber. Don't be put off just by that, if it's not ivory.

- The joint rings. These are important. There were days when jet black bakelite was the material, then the more checked phenolic rings came into vogue. If you know the time period, it may be genuine, or not.

- The brass insert. It gives a lot away. The shape of it means everything, from Rambow, to Palmer, to Paradise, to Balabushka, and others. The wood tenon, same thing.

- The points and veneers. How long they are in the forearm, and the colors. Also, the spacing at the wrap. The method of indexing inlays inside the points. The experts know what to look for.

- The wrap. Very important, and harder to identify than anyone thinks. If you think it's Cortland, think again. It may or may not be.

- The butt sleeve. Length is important, but can be duplicated.

- The bumper. If original, it should be apparent. If newer, it should also be apparent, even if a similar color.

- The finish. You'd better be able to tell a lacquer finish from a modern two-part finish, if you're examining a cue for originality.

- Measurements at various sections of the butt.

The OP is correct, but you'd better be able to cover a lot of the above with a claim that something is not right. And, I've only gone over about 60% or so.

All the best,
WW

 

[ideologist]

Agree, and it's a difficult conundrum.

However, claims of dishonesty require sufficient evidence.. I have no doubt that not all cue sales are genuine, but specificity is important. If you think a cue is not genuine, you have to start with:

- The ferrule. Is it not the ferrule that the original maker used, and why? Some old cuemakers used some pretty common materials, such as Lucite and good old white fiber. Don't be put off just by that, if it's not ivory.

- The joint rings. These are important. There were days when jet black bakelite was the material, then the more checked phenolic rings came into vogue. If you know the time period, it may be genuine, or not.

- The brass insert. It gives a lot away. The shape of it means everything, from Rambow, to Palmer, to Paradise, to Balabushka, and others. The wood tenon, same thing.

- The points and veneers. How long they are in the forearm, and the colors. Also, the spacing at the wrap. The method of indexing inlays inside the points. The experts know what to look for.

- The wrap. Very important, and harder to identify than anyone thinks. If you think it's Cortland, think again. It may or may not be.

- The butt sleeve. Length is important, but can be duplicated.

- The bumper. If original, it should be apparent. If newer, it should also be apparent, even if a similar color.

- The finish. You'd better be able to tell a lacquer finish from a modern two-part finish, if you're examining a cue for originality.

- Measurements at various sections of the butt.

The OP is correct, but you'd better be able to cover a lot of the above with a claim that something is not right. And, I've only gone over about 60% or so.

All the best,
WW

I've got the evidence in droves, and with a dealer who has handled enough cues to not be able to say "oops, I didn't realize I was mistaken"

If it is open season and I get to lay out a case, I hope the AZ staff welcomes that. Screenshots make for a very clear cut discussion.

 

[alphadog]

I make a motiion you present the evidence. Will someone second the motion?


I see 2 sellers on here ,who in the past were openly flagged as not trustworthy, posting all over the for sale forum. Can't figure that out.

 

[cuesblues]

I've noticed several "inaccurate" listings over the years.
Many times it's been over a cue I used to own, so any discrepancies in the description are always obvious to me.
I've lost respect for a few guys over it, and some I never trusted in the first place.

I see cues for sale all the time that I used to own, and the discrepancies always amaze.
I say we start outing these lying little trunk monkeys.


Peace.

 

[Rimfirejunkie]

I make a motiion you present the evidence. Will someone second the motion?


I see 2 sellers on here ,who in the past were openly flagged as not trustworthy, posting all over the for sale forum. Can't figure that out.

I'll second the motion.

 

[Franky4Eyes]

I've been a victim of this as well.
Actions should hold consequences if it's was knowingly done.

Another thing-
Why do some people refuse to give iTrader rep,
even with a perfect positive transaction?
I should have several more points.
I'm just thankful for the few that take a couple seconds
to click a couple boxes and type a sentence.

 

[Bavafongoul]

Lying or Making a False Statement vs. a Seller's Ignorance......Hmn?

Ideologist raises a great point......."When someone lies"....and I submit therein lies the rub as the phrase goes.

That's because lying requires intention, to purposefully and knowingly mislead or provide false testimony or information.

But to say or write something that is false, which the person otherwise thought was true, is a mistake rather than a lie.

So when it comes to selling a pool cue, some sellers "could be" more ignorant than they believe & misrpresent the cue.

But those bastar_s that actually intend to rip someone off by lying & being dishonest, well, they deserve banishment.

 

[TILT9]

Let The Dogs Out! :thumbup:

 

[azhousepro]

Ideologist, feel free to present your evidence. There will be repercussions.

Mike

 

[justabrake]

We certainly want to make users aware of bad seeds like that, but we do stop short of banning them. If we ban them, then they just come back with another username, and no one knows about the old username.



What would be ideal, would be a list with First Name, Last Name, City and State. That way when someone is making a deal, they can check then the user gives them the shipping info. I know there are ways around even that, but I don't know how else to handle it.



Thoughts? Suggestions?

Every seller should except returns in there listings then they have to take it back if the buyer is not happy with it and if they don’t cut him loose from here.


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

 

[BmoreMoney]

We certainly want to make users aware of bad seeds like that, but we do stop short of banning them. If we ban them, then they just come back with another username, and no one knows about the old username.

What would be ideal, would be a list with First Name, Last Name, City and State. That way when someone is making a deal, they can check then the user gives them the shipping info. I know there are ways around even that, but I don't know how else to handle it.


Thoughts? Suggestions?

This may be a total PITA, but it could be a good revenue stream for AZ and draw a lot of sales back to the forum that are now on FB. AZ COULD offer an escrow service, for a small fee of course. There's constantly people *****ing on FB too about bad transactions and I'd bet plenty of folks would pay to have trusted AZ handle it. No ideas on the legalities of it - but I'm thinking along the lines of if it goes bad somehow everyone just gets their money or product back???

Also, I'd bet that one of the senior, respected, maybe retired members here might just wanna do it to - and you could give them some type of official designation or something???

 

[justabrake]

What I don’t understand here is how can a seller leave a negative feedback after you send money bought the item wasn’t happy with it because it wasn’t exactly what was said in the sellers description and he wouldn’t take it back so I leave a negative for him and in return he does the same on me Really what kind of crap is that ! How can you let a seller leave a negative ? Ebay doesn’t allow that


Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums

 

[Type79]

There is a way to avoid being the victim of a dishonest seller, almost foolproof.

Be vigilant, be informed and knowledgeable on what you purchase, only deal with sellers with a good record of sales, use PayPal Goods and Services, and escrow if need-be.

Failed transactions almost always exhibit one or more of the following characteristics:
- trades without the use of an escrow service,
- PayPal payments through Friends and Family,
- shaft transactions.

Often it is all three combined.

 

[HUKIT]

There is a way to avoid being the victim of a dishonest seller, almost foolproof.

Be vigilant, be informed and knowledgeable on what you purchase, only deal with sellers with a good record of sales, use PayPal Goods and Services, and escrow if need-be.

Failed transactions almost always exhibit one or more of the following characteristics:
- trades without the use of an escrow service,
- PayPal payments through Friends and Family,
- shaft transactions.

Often it is all three combined.

I refuse to use Friends and Family as that negates the benefits of using Paypal for my protection.

 

[cuesblues]

There is a way to avoid being the victim of a dishonest seller, almost foolproof.

Be vigilant, be informed and knowledgeable on what you purchase, only deal with sellers with a good record of sales, use PayPal Goods and Services, and escrow if need-be.

Failed transactions almost always exhibit one or more of the following characteristics:
- trades without the use of an escrow service,
- PayPal payments through Friends and Family,
- shaft transactions.

Often it is all three combined.

Very good concept on how to avoid being scammed online.
In addition to the outright scam, there is a more common problem of receiving a crappy cue not as described.
I've known about many of these bad deals never publicized.

There are a few other common denominator's that I tell people to look for, and I do that when people contact me privately.
I can't tell you how many times I been called about deals gone bad with cues beat up, warped, skinny shafts, fake, and poorly packed.

 

[Type79]

Very good concept on how to avoid being scammed online.
In addition to the outright scam, there is a more common problem of receiving a crappy cue not as described.
I've known about many of these bad deals never publicized.

There are a few other common denominator's that I tell people to look for, and I do that when people contact me privately.
I can't tell you how many times I been called about deals gone bad with cues beat up, warped, skinny shafts, fake, and poorly packed.

Vintage cues can be problematic.
- Non-Original shafts,
- Short shafts,
- Bad repairs.

I've walked away from alot of cues, some due to condition, some due to sellers unwilling to provide information.

There was a cue sold to me earlier in the year that I was protected on through eBay and PayPal. In a nutshell the cue was junk. I returned it to the seller for a refund, and told the seller in detail what was wrong with it. He relisted it without mentioning any of it's problems and sold it for more than I paid. That buyer relisted the cue, probably after discovering it was not restorable, with a sparse description with no mention of it's condition. It again sold and I wonder if the buyer ever learned that he bought a cue that can't be fixed.